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Bahman
Guest
The mystery of creation if there is any is not described well in Bible hence Bible is not word of God if there is any.
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Pallas_Athene
Guest
God is supposed to be outside of our time, and there is nothing problematic about that. God is supposed to know past, present and future. The Bible says: “I knew you before you were born…” (not a verbatim quote). That indicates that God had knowledge of what any specific “will” do (in our timeframe) before that human is created. God is also assumed to be free in making decisions about what to create and what NOT to create.
Therefore God could create a specific human, and then that specific human will exercise his free will and perform those acts, which are already known to God. As such God is ultimately responsible for the person’s free actions. God is ultimately responsible for everything, whether he personally did it, or allowed someone else to do it.
The usual objection: “knowing (or foreknowing) something is not the cause of that event” is true… but that is not the point. “Knowing AND allowing something” puts the responsibility on one who knew and let is happen.
Della is very quiet now. Bradski’s perfect scenario about the gun shop’s owner’s ultimate responsibility cannot be denied, and she either does not like to acknowledge it, or does not understand it. Par for the course…
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DCNBILL
Guest
I would agree that being the Creator, the ultimate cause of everything, does in fact make Him responsible for everything.
God creates us and allows to participate in His being. He also creates us with the ability to deny Him, to say no to Him. Like a carpenter who makes a chair that won’t let him sit in it.
But there again we are using a human analogy for a Supreme Being which, of course, always falls short of the mark.We can not and do not know the mind of God. Why create creatures that can reject you? This seems crazy to us but this is where the Christ event is so critical in Salvation History. The incarnation of God becoming Man is the fullness of revelation of God, He demonstrates Himself to us. He shows us the ultimate loving humility that He posses and He does this on the Cross.
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tonyrey
Guest
It is highly convenient, John, to reach a conclusion which implies we are not guilty of any crime we commit.
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tonyrey
Guest
Brad, a gun shop owner is hardly fulfilling the same function as the One who has given you the power to think for yourself and reach your own conclusions…
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Pallas_Athene
Guest
Thank you. That is all that matters.
Strangely enough most believers assert that they KNOW the mind of God, and it just so happens that in their opinion God always agrees with them, even if they assert totally different opinions. What a lucky coincidence.
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Pallas_Athene
Guest
There are levels of responsibility. The murderer is directly responsible, while God is ultimately responsible.It is highly convenient, John, to reach a conclusion which implies we are not guilty of any crime we commit.
Giving the wherewithal to the would-be murderer, while knowing the intentions of the would-be murderer is what makes the owner responsible. The responsibility comes from KNOWING and DOING. If one does not KNOW, he is not culpable. If one does not DO, he is not culpable. There is a direct and an ultimate responsibility.Brad, a gun shop owner is hardly fulfilling the same function as the One who has given you the power to think for yourself and reach your own conclusions…
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tonyrey
Guest
Our independence justifies the decision to create us.
Our independence still justifies the decision to create us. Otherwise we couldn’t choose to be reasonable - and be able to condemn God for giving us such power if that is what we choose to believe.
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tonyrey
Guest
Have you discovered a better explanation?
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Bahman
Guest
Yes I am working on a better explaination. Listen my friend we can resolve the problems of the worst theory which try to explain existence with a being so called God who is able to do anything. Worthless attempt.Have you discovered a better explanation?
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Pallas_Athene
Guest
What is justified and what is not is a subjective opinion. Responsibility is not subjective.Our independence justifies the decision to create us.
Our independence still justifies the decision to create us. Otherwise we couldn’t choose to be reasonable - and be able to condemn God for giving us such power if that is what we choose to believe.
I don’t see any justification for KNOWINGLY creating mass-murderers. The murderers are directly responsible for their actions, while God is indirectly / ultimately responsible for them.
Giving too much power is simply irrational and irresponsible. You would not give a loaded gun to a 10 years old, and give his a stern warning: “do not point it to another child, and then pull the trigger”. A responsible parent does NOT allow excessive freedom, for the freedom’s sake. A responsible society locks up the murderers in prisons, thus limiting their freedom, and no one thinks that limiting their freedom is wrong.
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InNomineDomini
Guest
In asking these sorts of questions, I think it’s important to bear something in mind: Christians have been asking the same ones for centuries now, and, frankly, have had sufficient answers since at least the time of St. Augustine. Anyone asking for a genuine and robust defense of these doctrines from a Catholic perspective really should be consulting St. Thomas, which can be a rather specialized task.
But to get started, I would humbly recommend taking several hours, and listening to at least the first five lectures found here: hebrewcatholic.net/13-creation-and-covenant/. I think that Dr. Feingold, especially in lecture number four, will address your question far better than probably 99.99998% of this forum could. (Plus, as my wife says, he sounds like a cute, cartoon mouse: he really makes a rather dense subject totally not intimidating. Seriously, you’ll love him.)
… and as an aside, I find your own “religious affiliation,” shall we say, rather fascinating. I presume it involves some form of “reconstruction,” which is certainly in itself a rather baffling set of religious presuppositions. But that’s definitely another talk for another thread!
But to get started, I would humbly recommend taking several hours, and listening to at least the first five lectures found here: hebrewcatholic.net/13-creation-and-covenant/. I think that Dr. Feingold, especially in lecture number four, will address your question far better than probably 99.99998% of this forum could.
(Plus, as my wife says, he sounds like a cute, cartoon mouse: he really makes a rather dense subject totally not intimidating. Seriously, you’ll love him.)… and as an aside, I find your own “religious affiliation,” shall we say, rather fascinating. I presume it involves some form of “reconstruction,” which is certainly in itself a rather baffling set of religious presuppositions. But that’s definitely another talk for another thread!
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InNomineDomini
Guest
Just to give one more plug to the audio lectures I linked to above, St. Thomas address this here: newadvent.org/summa/1049.htm#article2
Consult the lectures for a more accessible explanation.
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tonyrey
Guest
It seems rather presumptuous to think we can find a better explanation than one accepted by great philosophers, scientists, statesmen, reformers and the vast majority of people throughout the world since the dawn of civilisation…
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oldcelt
Guest
It is convenient only for those who believe in the direct and all-knowing creation of a deity. Since I believe that we are simply a result of that creation and have total fee will…we are completely responsible for all of our actions.It is highly convenient, John, to reach a conclusion which implies we are not guilty of any crime we commit.
If my creator is watching, I believe that creator is just as surprised as the rest of us by the action of humanity.
John
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oldcelt
Guest
Which single explanation would that be, Tony? Last time I looked there were a multitude.It seems rather presumptuous to think we can find a better explanation than one accepted by great philosophers, scientists, statesmen, reformers and the vast majority of people throughout the world since the dawn of civilisation…
John
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tonyrey
Guest
A** person**'s decision is justified if **that person **believes it is reasonable.
What else can it be?
The comparison of God with a human parent is unsound for three reasons. Only God determines the precise extent of our freedom, has insight into our minds and knows the ultimate outcome of our lives. A responsible society does not execute murderers because no one knows for certain their exact degree of culpability. Putting them in prison is a far cry from not creating them! If this were the only life we have there might be a reason for sifting people out prior to birth but your thread presupposes the existence of God and presumably survival after death - which implies that your bafflement should take into account the eternal context of our life on earth. To judge everything by what happens** in this world** is obviously unreasonable.
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Aloysium
Guest
I would agree that He is surprised, although amazed might be a more accurate word.
But, He is more than watching. Within eternity, with infinite compassion and mercy, He observes what we choose to make of our lives.
The way I understand creation, we cannot persist without being brought into existence in every moment. A creator cannot just watch; He must create.
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Pallas_Athene
Guest
Since I do not accept Aquinas, any reference to Tomistic philosophy is a waste of time. The proposition I submit is a simple, secular one. Namely:
- If you know about an impending and undesirable event, and
- you have to power to prevent it, and
- fail to do so, then
- you are responsible for it…
- no matter if the event is a natural occurrence or the act of a moral agent.
- If you knowingly create an agent, who
- will commit an undesirable act, and
- you have knowledge about this act, and
- you have the option of not to create that agent, then
- you are responsible for the actions of that agent.
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DCNBILL
Guest
From a human perspective you are spot on. The trouble is that we are dealing with a Deity. From the perspective of God a mass murderer may be killing people at a time in their life that they will go directly to Him, this would be a “good” for both the individual souls and God. Trying to anthropomorphize God places limits on Him that do not belong.
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