I am baffled, please explain

[PRmerger]

God/Christ has done some pretty harsh things like killing infants, ordering killings of neighboring tribes and non-believers, allowed rape, slavery, incest, etc. Why are you trying to avoid these instances when comparing with Baba?

God has never ordered things like killing infants, ordering killings of neighboring tribes.

All of that described in the Scriptures are metaphorical.

Please see Jimmy Akin’s explanation:

jimmyakin.com/2007/02/hard_sayings_of.html

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, with video proof too. Cant get any more solid, can you? Where is Jesus’ video proof?

Yes, there are many “Sauls” that Sathiya Sai Baba has converted.

Exactly, Sathiya has much better evidence.

So why don’t you believe he’s God?

 

[SonOfMan]

God has never ordered things like killing infants

Correct, he killed them himself.

Example: He killed the Pharaoh’s first born son.

, ordering killings of neighboring tribes.

The Caananites and Hittites and other tribes were commanded to be wiped out, for fear of contaminating the Jewish faith.

All of that described in the Scriptures are metaphorical.

Please see Jimmy Akin’s explanation:

jimmyakin.com/2007/02/hard_sayings_of.html

Depends on the apologist you’re asking. Many apologists are unwilling to concede that those instances were metaphorical. But supposing they were, I guess Moses (who transported the 10 Commandments), the Exodus, Passover, and all of that is metaphorical too, huh?

 

[SonOfMan]

So why don’t you believe he’s God?

Because those things dont automatically make someone God, hence why I dont think Jesus is God. Sathiya has a better chance at it and I dont believe hes God for one second.

But more interestingly, you have not answered why you dont think hes God and how that reconciles with your reasoning for believing in Christ.

 

[Aloysium]

Yes, with video proof too. Cant get any more solid, can you? Where is Jesus’ video proof? . . .

This universe is founded on Love.
That is the fundamental Reality.
Whatever video proof is there of Bab’s goodness,
of his giving of himself to humanity,
it would not make him God.
The proof I have of Jesus is in my heart.
Videos are illusory in comparison.

 

[SonOfMan]

The proof I have of Jesus is in my heart.
Videos are illusory in comparison.

So ultimately, your proof is subjective. What makes your proof any better than the proof of Baba’s followers, in addition to the proof they have in their heart as well?

 

[Aloysium]

Correct, he killed them himself… . .

We are God’s creation.
He is Goodness itself.
We belong to Him, our Creator.
Sin has brought death upon us.
We will all die.
In Christ lies the hope of life eternal.
I don’t understand your issue.
Those children are with God.

The story of Exodus is a revelation of the Word
that forms the background for the revelation of Jesus Christ at the Centre of time.
You may want to research the depths of its meaning.

For me when the bottom line when I hear any of these sorts of complaints about suffering and hard times, Job pops to mind:
Gird your loins; toughen up dude.
This trip is extreme!
You have absolutely no idea as to its heights and depths.
You may think you’ve seen it all; you will find you ain’t seen nothin’.
It is glorious!!!

 

[Aloysium]

So ultimately, your proof is subjective. What makes your proof any better than the proof of Baba’s followers, in addition to the proof they have in their heart as well?

The subjective-objective dichotomy is illusory.
This is all about relationship: the spark that bridges the gap between the mysteries of self and other.

I am not the judge of who is right and wrong. I seek the truth. I find none in your posts, sorry.

 

[SonOfMan]

I am not the judge of who is right and wrong. I seek the truth. I find none in your posts, sorry.

Well thats just like, your opinion man. I find none in your posts either, sorry.

 

[Aloysium]

Well thats just like, your opinion man. I find none in your posts either, sorry.

I get it. You made it clear. I wish you well on your journey.

 

[tonyrey]

If you believe that our thoughts are DETERMINED by our genetic makeup then you are seriously mistaken. On the other hand, “WE” as the body and mind are PARTIALLY determined by the genetic inheritance we received from our parents. And since it is obvious that those billions of sperms are not identical, there is indeed a huge variety of the “possible” persons who could emerge from the lottery of conception.

Progress, Pallas! But you have yet to explain how variety leads to freedom and responsibility. Surely - from your point of view - we are still chance products of nature like all the other animals and differ from them only in our level of intelligence?

 

[Pallas_Athene]

But you have yet to explain how variety leads to freedom and responsibility.

Nope, I don’t “have to” explain anything, because that is STILL not the subject of this thread. Open your own thread, if you wish to discuss it.

For the time being it is sufficient to point out that we are PARTIALLY determined by random processes of nature. If a different sperm would have reached the ovum, you might call yourself AntoniaRey - and the world would just go on. Whether it is “YOU” or “Antonia” who would exist, is of no relevance - especially since no one would know. And this simple truth is NOT a death wish for your existence.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . For the time being it is sufficient to point out that we are PARTIALLY determined by random processes of nature. If a different sperm would have reached the ovum, you might call yourself AntoniaRey - and the world would just go on. Whether it is “YOU” or “Antonia” who would exist, is of no relevance - especially since no one would know. And this simple truth is NOT a death wish for your existence.

There is no universe in which AntiaRay exists instead of TonyRey. The probability of TonyRey’s existence is 100%. This random stuff is flight of fancy, imagining things that are not and cannot be. Again, this does not have anything to do with free will, as Tony is free to determine who he will be, with what he has been given. Sheesh!

 

[tonyrey]

Nope, I don’t “have to” explain anything, because that is STILL not the subject of this thread. Open your own thread, if you wish to discuss it.

For the time being it is sufficient to point out that we are PARTIALLY determined by random processes of nature. If a different sperm would have reached the ovum, you might call yourself AntoniaRey - and the world would just go on. Whether it is “YOU” or “Antonia” who would exist, is of no relevance - especially since no one would know. And this simple truth is NOT a death wish for your existence.

Unfortunately for you, Pallas, your first question presupposes free will:

The first question is this:
Could God have created a different pair, like George and Susie, who would NOT have succumbed to the temptation, and would NOT have chosen to disobey? If every conceivable human pair would have succumbed to the temptation then there is no free will; the fall would have been preordained or predestined. Sounds quite unreasonable. The existence of free will is a basic tenet.

Yet you have also stated explicitly:

We are the random result of a specific sperm “winning” the race to the ovum.

There is no qualification here which implies that our existence depends entirely on a random natural event without any form of supernatural intervention. Everything else you have written implies that there is no God, e.g.

“Why do you think that I or you are SPECIAL”? We are not. If we would not exist, then someone else would exist in our place."

In your scheme of things there is no free will because everything has a natural explanation and your entire argument is based on a false premise! Your vain attempt to modify your position with the word “partially” is inconsistent with everything else you have written. You are not really baffled at all because in your mind there is no conflict. For you physical necessity has the last word and nothing else matters…

 

[tonyrey]

There is no universe in which AntiaRay exists instead of TonyRey. The probability of TonyRey’s existence is 100%. This random stuff is flight of fancy, imagining things that are not and cannot be. Again, this does not have anything to do with free will, as Tony is free to determine who he will be, with what he has been given. Sheesh!

According to Pallas no one has any say in the matter. We are just naked apes who exist by chance and imagine we have free will! That is why he cannot explain it but he doesn’t want to admit it because he knows it would wreck not only his argument in this thread but his entire scheme of things…:bighanky:

 

[Peter_Plato]

Yes, with video proof too. Cant get any more solid, can you? Where is Jesus’ video proof?

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=2053&pictureid=17308

You don’t seem to know much about making videos, do you Son?

There is likely no far-fetched notion or “truth” that CAN’T be presented on video as if it were absolutely true these days.

As soon as you went there, you lost all credibility as far as I am concerned.

If anything, the Shroud is a far more compelling artifact than a hundred videos because current technology cannot even get close to reproducing it.

 

[Pallas_Athene]

Unfortunately for you, Pallas, your first question presupposes free will:

If you wish to discuss “free will” is detail, open your own thread. Make sure that you precisely and explicitly define what you mean by this expression.

 

[Aloysium]

The OP has to do with the Garden which describes in pretty straightforward language actually, how we got here. Your questions relate back to original sin, its consequences, and the nature of sin itself. From a Christian perspective Genesis is the first revelation of the Word, which incarnated in Jesus Christ ultimately has led to our redemption and salvation. Not to recognize the central part that free will plays in all this demonstrates an intellectual lacuna that is at the source of your befuddlement.

 

[SonOfMan]

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/picture.php?albumid=2053&pictureid=17308

You don’t seem to know much about making videos, do you Son?

There is likely no far-fetched notion or “truth” that CAN’T be presented on video as if it were absolutely true these days.

As soon as you went there, you lost all credibility as far as I am concerned.

If anything, the Shroud is a far more compelling artifact than a hundred videos because current technology cannot even get close to reproducing it.

I never said it was particularly good evidence. I never said I personally believed it, but Indians who worship Baba definitely believe it. The point I was making is that the evidence for that claim exists, whereas it doesn’t exist for Jesus. And yet people who claim others require much evidence for God and believe other things with no evidence turned out to be just as guilty when it came to their religion vs other religions with better evidence.

 

[PRmerger]

In other words, just because we see signs and wonders and even have the proof, that doesnt automatically make someone God. If you logically follow that one out, the same explanation can be applied to Jesus.

Right. Signs and wonders do not by themselves make someone God.

For you are aware that all of the Apostles performed signs and wonders, but that doesn’t make them God.

In fact, Jesus said those who followed Him would do even greater things…but that didn’t make them God.

You ought to know that, Son.

Don’t come to a Catholic forum, be in dialogue with knowledgeable Catholics, and then be ignorant of some very basic religious tenets.