I am embarrassed, and I am angry

[kptrs]

In the interest of full disclosure, I am a non-Catholic married to a cradle Catholic. I attend Mass with my wife every Sunday and often participate in parish activities. With that out of the way…

You are certainly entitled to a rant. You were the subject of some rather crude, juvenile humor. I’d be irritated too. However, contrary to most of the advice you’ve received so far, I think it’s time to let it go. You’ve told your husband how you feel. He’s acknowledged his bad behavior and apologized. Yes, you disagree on how serious an “infraction” this was, but you and Hubby DO agree it was not an appropriate way to behave. He is probably mortified at his behavior and is looking for a graceful way to leave it in the past. My advice is to let him.

Regarding some of the (in my opinion) questionable advice you’ve received:

Banish Hubby to the sofa - This will accomplish nothing except to increase the distance between you and aggregate an already stressful situation. Especially if Hubby is dealing with other, serious emotional issues. It might seem to him that you are just piling on.

Call the wives of the other offenders - It is REALLY not your place to cause trouble for other marriages. As someone above already suggested, just let those marriages follow their natural courses. Besides, those other wives already know they’re married to frat boys. They probably won’t appreciate you throwing in their faces.

Inform the pastor - Really? Tattle on them to an authority figure?

Call the police - Get real. Even if this situation did involved drunk driving, it is now way after the fact. Harassment? Calling a few suggestive texts from your own husband’s phone harassment is an insult to woman who have suffered real harassment.

Again, I understand that you were the subject of some very immature humor. You have every right to be irritated. But you’ve expressed your displeasure to your husband and he has apologized. There is nothing to be gained by holding onto a boat-load of anger. Take one for the team, let it go, and hope Hubby does the same for you when you (inevitably) step in it some day.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. However, I would say that the responses from posters on this thread are probably 10x harsher than Ophelia is actually being with her husband. Her feelings need to be validated. If her spouse suffers from depression, I have a hunch she’s “taking one for the team” on a fairly regular basis, as she’s always putting his feelings before her own. That’s what you have to do when you are married to someone with mental illness. Having a spouse with a mental illness requires a lot of unconditional love. But her feelings are important too. She can be patient with her husband, love him, not send him to the couch, etc. but she can’t turn feelings on and off. She can “let it go” when she’s ready.

 

[on_the_hill]

Well…and granted, I grew up long before the advent of cell phones…but…how old is your husband? 15? 16? Was he old enough to get married without his parents’ permission?

Because I gotta say, I have never been with a group of guys who did anything like this. Ever. Not in high school, not in college, not in grad school, and not in the 20-odd years since.

If I were you I’d be just as livid. Heck, if I were your brother or father, I’d probably punch those guys right in the mouth. I’d spare your husband, but he might never live down the shame I’d place upon him.

 

[kptrs]

Having closely read your original and subsequent posts, I have to inform you that your husband is a sex offender with serious substance abuse problems. As both of these conditions are deep seated and were well hidden during your courtship, I suggest you divorce him immediately so that you can get an annulment, which, as I understand from reading this forum, is what Jesus would do.

Either that, or he’s a decent husband and father who got drunk and did something stupid. That was actually my first guess, but since it’s never once happened in all of human history, I thought it was too unlikely to propose.

You can thank me later for this excellent advice.

Excellent use of sarcasm. You make a good point.

 

[Xantippe]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. However, I would say that the responses from posters on this thread are probably 10x harsher than Ophelia is actually being with her husband. Her feelings need to be validated. If her spouse suffers from depression, I have a hunch she’s “taking one for the team” on a fairly regular basis, as she’s always putting his feelings before her own. That’s what you have to do when you are married to someone with mental illness. Having a spouse with a mental illness requires a lot of unconditional love. But her feelings are important too. She can be patient with her husband, love him, not send him to the couch, etc. but she can’t turn feelings on and off. She can “let it go” when she’s ready.

I don’t hold with couch exile (unless it was a divorce-worthy offense), but based on Ophelia’s past postings, you’re pretty closed to the truth. She’s been carrying her husband through a lot of stuff for a long time and trying to keep up a stiff upper lip and a good attitude. At least based on her posts on CAF, I think she’s been trying really hard.

If, in addition to this fiasco with the texts from his buddies, he’s also continuing to struggle with supporting the family, I think it’s time to talk to the pastor about your various issues and do marriage counseling (perhaps with a therapist) and make sure that he is getting appropriate support and treatment for his depression. At some point, a stiff upper lip isn’t enough.

 

[Blue_Goose]

I have to say first and foremost, everybody in the men’s club who was drinking also lives within a three block radius of the church. No drunk driving was involved here. And I also feel like I need to say, my husband rarely drinks. It’s not a common thing at all. Second, I did see the suggestion to leave the parish but I am no where near considering it. I love our parish so much. I am a cantor and the funeral musician/accompanist, I run the youth group, my daughter attends the school…we are invested, and it is my home. My family, and my home.

With all of that said, I’ve tried to have a conversation with my husband about it. He has apologized, but he also says that I am over-reacting. And each time he says that, the more I feel disrespected. He got very, very upset when I mentioned possibly talking to Father about it. He says it is unfair to punish everybody for his stupid move. He initiated it. But everybody got a laugh out of it—at my expense. And when I have tried to talk to him about some kind of consequence to the Men’s Club, he got SO angry and yelled at me about being high and mighty.

I know this will be resolved between us. But for now, I’m feeling very much like he doesn’t have my back and I wish he would.

He has been in ongoing treatment for depression, and it was not even a week ago that his uncle committed suicide. In fact, the 5:00 Mass yesterday was offered for his uncle. There is so much more bubbling under the surface than I presented in my original post, and I’m feeling a little guilty about that. I don’t want it to be a conversation about how bad my husband is. (I know that nobody is saying that, but I needed to say that myself. )

I suppose I don’t know what I wanted by posting my feelings. Maybe just to put them out there and feel a little validation.

Ophelia23,** peace be with you**. Rest assured you have every right to be embarrassed and angry, and you are justified in venting. But, I suspect you were taken aback by some of the strong responses to your post and you may regret sharing the incident through this forum.

Granted, the event was alcohol fueled but that is no longer accepted as a defense . A man encouraging other men to make suggestive comments to his wife can’t be easily explained or excused. Your husband’s problems may go far beyond simple depression or grief over his uncle’s death.

I sincerely hope you can fully resolve this incident with your husband, that he confesses his sin, repents, and an incident like this never happens again. But, if it does, then you are justified in consulting with the parish priest. You do not need permission from your husband to do that and you do not need to tell your husband. Rest assured that whatever you say to the priest will be in confidence.

I am sorry this happened to you.

 

[WillyAL]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying here. However, I would say that the responses from posters on this thread are probably 10x harsher than Ophelia is actually being with her husband. Her feelings need to be validated. If her spouse suffers from depression, I have a hunch she’s “taking one for the team” on a fairly regular basis, as she’s always putting his feelings before her own. That’s what you have to do when you are married to someone with mental illness. Having a spouse with a mental illness requires a lot of unconditional love. But her feelings are important too. She can be patient with her husband, love him, not send him to the couch, etc. but she can’t turn feelings on and off. She can “let it go” when she’s ready.

I expected to get jumped on, so thank you for your measured response.

Fortunately, I have had very little experience with mental illness in my family. Consequently, I did not consider the possibility that the OP might be constantly stuffing her feelings in order to create a nurturing environment for her husband. This one event may have been the straw that broke the camel’s back. Hopefully they can both help each other put it in the past.

*This will accomplish nothing except to increase the distance between you and aggregate an already stressful situation. *

Stupid auto-correct. Should be “aggrevate.”

 

[WillyAL]

Having closely read your original and subsequent posts, I have to inform you that your husband is a sex offender with serious substance abuse problems. As both of these conditions are deep seated and were well hidden during your courtship, I suggest you divorce him immediately so that you can get an annulment, which, as I understand from reading this forum, is what Jesus would do.

Either that, or he’s a decent husband and father who got drunk and did something stupid. That was actually my first guess, but since it’s never once happened in all of human history, I thought it was too unlikely to propose.

You can thank me later for this excellent advice.

 

[EasterJoy]

Very questionable behavior from a Catholic Men’s Group while engaging in Church activity or at anytime.

Can I go on the record as noting that very few people who have reached actual rather than chronological adulthood would consider defending this behavior? Males who would do such a thing prove only that they need a lot more supervision than they’ve been given.

 

[EasterJoy]

PLEASE do not be the one to involve the wives! I do’t see anything positive coming from that. Let natural consequences, in that regard, occur.

The natural consequence of making lewd comments about a fellow parishioner and not taking them back in abject contrition the next time you see her is that she tells your wife and the pastor. The men who think this is OK do not deserve to be protected from the light.

If St. Paul were their pastor, would he want them protected? I think not.

Immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be mentioned among you, as is fitting among holy ones,* no obscenity or silly or suggestive talk, which is out of place**, but instead, thanksgiving. Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure or greedy person, that is, an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty arguments, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the disobedient. So do not be associated with them. For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light, for light produces every kind of goodness and righteousness and truth. Try to learn what is pleasing to the Lord.

Take no part in the fruitless works of darkness; rather expose them, for it is shameful even to mention the things done by them in secret; but everything exposed by the light becomes visible, for everything that becomes visible is light. Therefore, it says: “Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will give you light.”

Watch carefully then how you live, not as foolish persons but as wise, making the most of the opportunity, because the days are evil. Therefore, do not continue in ignorance, but try to understand what is the will of the Lord. And do not get drunk on wine, in which lies debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another (in) psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and playing to the Lord in your hearts, giving thanks always and for everything in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God the Father*. Eph. 5:3-23

 

[Xantippe]

I think it’s more than fair for the OP to ask her husband, “How are you going to keep something like this from happening again?”

 

[ClearWater]

More than anything, this is just a rant.

Yesterday evening, my husband was volunteering for our Church’s spring festival by helping out with bingo. Other guys from the Men’s Club were helping, too. He said he would be home around 10-10:30. He wasn’t home at that time, but I didn’t worry–I just went to bed on my own. I’ve got small kids. Mornings come very early.

Around 11:30, I got a hugely suggestive text from him. Several texts, actually. Saying things like, when he gets home I’d better run, that he’s ready to go and I need to be ready and waiting, and that he’s going to make me scream and sing. I got the feeling it wasn’t him because he just… it didn’t seem like him. Turns out, another man from men’s club was texting me as my husband. I was not happy about this. When he got home, he was so incredibly drunk. I told him what had happened and how it made me feel, and he laughed. I went from being irritated to being downright angry. He said that the other guy just took his phone and was having fun. I think it’s gross that anybody other than my husband put me in that context. I’m irritated that it got me out of bed for foolery. Well…

Today I went with our kids up to the spring festival so they could play the games. No lie, 5 different men from Men’s Club came up to me at different times this afternoon and said things like, “So, how’d you like those texts??” One actually came up to me and said that he thinks I’m owed an apology. But the fact is, ALL of the men knew what had happened. And what’s even worse, they told me how it happened. My husband OFFERED for them to do it. He gave over his phone declaring “Who wants to text my wife??”

I’m livid. I’m embarrassed. I’m… if I go by the reactions of the men from the club, I’m overreacting. But I don’t appreciate being teh subject of a dirty joke. Poke fun at me all you want, and I can take it AND dish it. But bedroom jokes? Offering for other men to try to make me blush? I feel dirty. Yucky. And while my husband has apologized, after all of the men coming up to me today I feel like I want a whole additional apology on top of it!

I’ve been praying the Rosary a lot more lately, and I happen to be in the middle of a novena for grace. I’m trying to handle the whole situation at church gracefully, but I honestly and genuinely feel disgraced and embarrassed.

DANG! I would NOT want to be on the receiving end of that! This is happening in a church group? Sounds like church is becoming the problem, then.

Switching churches would probably help with the embarrassment, but there is another issue here…that of boundaries. When your husband set you up, he crossed your boundary. When did this start, where he was inappropriate, crossing your boundaries?
Particularly if this is a chronic issue, marital counseling might be in order. He needs to know that what you do in private needs to stay in private.

I would think this would erode respect AND trust in the relationship, make it that much harder to love.

If alcohol was also involved, that’s a separate issue.

 

[EasterJoy]

Having closely read your original and subsequent posts, I have to inform you that your husband is a sex offender with serious substance abuse problems. As both of these conditions are deep seated and were well hidden during your courtship, I suggest you divorce him immediately so that you can get an annulment, which, as I understand from reading this forum, is what Jesus would do.

Either that, or he’s a decent husband and father who got drunk and did something stupid. That was actually my first guess, but since it’s never once happened in all of human history, I thought it was too unlikely to propose.

You can thank me later for this excellent advice.

He and his friends are unrepentant idiots who don’t have the self-control you’d want in an 18 year old before you loaned him your car, let alone allowed him to date your daughter. This is something to be a good sport about?

It is a spiritual work of mercy to admonish the sinner, brother, and the way to deal with the brother who offends against you is to take his offense to the church if he won’t hear you. That is in the red letters.

 

[captainrick]

I’d do this:

1. DH on the couch. A full apology required and a serious conversation. More to come below.
2. Confront other men and notify their wives.
3. Advise parish priest.
4. Contact police to investigate probable DUIs.

I would be concerned about what else was said at the event that led up to the texts. I’m also deeply concerned about DUI. If your husband drove home drunk, I would want him to go in for counseling, as that puts the whole family at risk, as well as the larger community. Absolutely disgraceful!

Good advice, but regarding #4: The drunk driving is definitely a problem, but the police can do nothing about a DUI that occurred in the past. No such thing as a “probable” DUI. Charges can’t be brought without a blood test or field sobriety test.

 

[EasterJoy]

I think it’s more than fair for the OP to ask her husband, “How are you going to keep something like this from happening again?”

That is the issue. If they all looked sheepish and were apologizing when she saw them, I’d say to accept their apology and forget it ever happened. This is what we all hope for when we’ve embarrassed ourselves, and particularly when we’ve shown disrespect to someone who deserves our respect. As it is, though, they have not shown that kind of maturity or that kind of sensitivity to her feelings or her dignity as a daughter of the Lord. She needs help in letting them know how simply unacceptable it is that anything like it happen again.

Her husband, sadly, was the near occasion of their stupid sin, because he suggested they make his wife into the butt of their jokes. (And–*hello?–*how has he explained why he left that bit out when he apologized, as if he had no part in it?) He needs to take the lead in making this point with the group. If that means that the pastor has to be there to confront them together at their next meeting, so be it. Sad, but spiritual mercy says they need the correction.

 

[EasterJoy]

Good advice, but regarding #4: The drunk driving is definitely a problem, but the police can do nothing about a DUI that occurred in the past. No such thing as a “probable” DUI. Charges can’t be brought without a blood test or field sobriety test.

Very true. The police might like to know they need to start patrolling the street the church is on when the men’s group meets, but they can’t do anything about impairment they can’t document. Doing something offensive is, unfortunately, not proof of drunkenness. Men with a blood alcohol level far below the legal limit can act like idiots, too.

It is a bit much to ramp up the response from an expectation of an apology to a threat of felony charges, as well. After all, who knows? Maybe they did have some designated drivers in the group. Maybe the offense was not as assignable to alcohol as they say, but only took a slight lowering of inhibitions and the peer pressure of a rowdy group. It is clearly a concern that they may have been going home from church at an illegal blood alcohol level, but expressing the concern shouldn’t mean it is *known *that all or every any of the drivers were that far gone.

 

[Latinitas]

More than anything, this is just a rant.

Yesterday evening, my husband was volunteering for our Church’s spring festival by helping out with bingo. Other guys from the Men’s Club were helping, too. He said he would be home around 10-10:30. He wasn’t home at that time, but I didn’t worry–I just went to bed on my own. I’ve got small kids. Mornings come very early.

Around 11:30, I got a hugely suggestive text from him. Several texts, actually. Saying things like, when he gets home I’d better run, that he’s ready to go and I need to be ready and waiting, and that he’s going to make me scream and sing. I got the feeling it wasn’t him because he just… it didn’t seem like him. Turns out, another man from men’s club was texting me as my husband. I was not happy about this. When he got home, he was so incredibly drunk. I told him what had happened and how it made me feel, and he laughed. I went from being irritated to being downright angry. He said that the other guy just took his phone and was having fun. I think it’s gross that anybody other than my husband put me in that context. I’m irritated that it got me out of bed for foolery. Well…

Today I went with our kids up to the spring festival so they could play the games. No lie, 5 different men from Men’s Club came up to me at different times this afternoon and said things like, “So, how’d you like those texts??” One actually came up to me and said that he thinks I’m owed an apology. But the fact is, ALL of the men knew what had happened. And what’s even worse, they told me how it happened. My husband OFFERED for them to do it. He gave over his phone declaring “Who wants to text my wife??”

I’m livid. I’m embarrassed. I’m… if I go by the reactions of the men from the club, I’m overreacting. But I don’t appreciate being teh subject of a dirty joke. Poke fun at me all you want, and I can take it AND dish it. But bedroom jokes? Offering for other men to try to make me blush? I feel dirty. Yucky. And while my husband has apologized, after all of the men coming up to me today I feel like I want a whole additional apology on top of it!

I’ve been praying the Rosary a lot more lately, and I happen to be in the middle of a novena for grace. I’m trying to handle the whole situation at church gracefully, but I honestly and genuinely feel disgraced and embarrassed.

I’m really sorry to hear this. God bless you for dealing with this in such a dignified and charitable manner. As to what the men’s club thinks - ignore it. They can’t see the malice of their own sin. Granted, that’s just my humble opinion. But that is a severe mistreatment of you.

I pray I never treat my future wife that way.

Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas

 

[EasterJoy]

I have to say first and foremost, everybody in the men’s club who was drinking also lives within a three block radius of the church. No drunk driving was involved here. And I also feel like I need to say, my husband rarely drinks. It’s not a common thing at all. Second, I did see the suggestion to leave the parish but I am no where near considering it. I love our parish so much. I am a cantor and the funeral musician/accompanist, I run the youth group, my daughter attends the school…we are invested, and it is my home. My family, and my home.

With all of that said, I’ve tried to have a conversation with my husband about it. He has apologized, but he also says that I am over-reacting. And each time he says that, the more I feel disrespected. He got very, very upset when I mentioned possibly talking to Father about it. He says it is unfair to punish everybody for his stupid move. He initiated it. But everybody got a laugh out of it—at my expense. And when I have tried to talk to him about some kind of consequence to the Men’s Club, he got SO angry and yelled at me about being high and mighty.

I know this will be resolved between us. But for now, I’m feeling very much like he doesn’t have my back and I wish he would.

He has been in ongoing treatment for depression, and it was not even a week ago that his uncle committed suicide. In fact, the 5:00 Mass yesterday was offered for his uncle. There is so much more bubbling under the surface than I presented in my original post, and I’m feeling a little guilty about that. I don’t want it to be a conversation about how bad my husband is. (I know that nobody is saying that, but I needed to say that myself. )

I suppose I don’t know what I wanted by posting my feelings. Maybe just to put them out there and feel a little validation.

Tell your husband to come with you alone to talk to Father, and if Father thinks you are over-reacting, you will let it go and not mention it again. If he doesn’t want to do that, then tell him you expect those men who taunted you when they were sober and had time to reflect on how they treated you to try again and get it right this time. No excuses: a real apology and a real admission that you deserve more respect than that. If they do not want you talking about the incident, after all, they should not have bragged to you about it in front of the whole parish and all outdoors.

This incident is not evidence that your husband and his friends are anything but wrong about this particular incident. They still think it was OK. They could not be more wrong. They need to switch their noodles, wake up, apologize, and promise there will not be a repeat.

 

[truetofaith]

Good advice, but regarding #4: The drunk driving is definitely a problem, but the police can do nothing about a DUI that occurred in the past. No such thing as a “probable” DUI. Charges can’t be brought without a blood test or field sobriety test.

The OP said the distance was only 3 blocks so drunk driving was not an issue.

 

[pianistclare]

First of all, I think it goes without saying that your husband’s time in “men’s group” is at an end. All the more time for AA meetings. Secondly, I would be very tempted to show those texts to the pastor, so he can see the sort of activities the parish is sponsoring. (I’m assuming this group is a parish-sponsored group that is advertised as a good spiritual opportunity for the men of the parish.)

THIS^^^^.

Shocking, and these little soirees need to be stopped. Immediately.
I’m so sorry this happened to you.
Praying for peace and healing for you dear.
Love,
Clare

 

[alphawoman]

1. Absolutely would do this!
2. I would talk to the other men, telling them how embarrassing, revolting, childish their behavior was. Wives, why? The wives didn’t do anything. Besides this is vindictive and childish, more childish behavior won’t make this better.

I assumed at least some of their husbands were involved in drunk diving, which is a misdemeanour in first offenses in most states, and a felony in subsequent instances. A husband’s potentially going to jail and losing his livelihood from illegal behaviour is information I, as a wife, would want to be privvy to. I see the OP has stated that they all live within 3 blocks of the church and would have walked, which isn’t typical for most parishes.

asia53:

1. Why? The priest wasn’t involved. Besides as with #2, this is vindictive and childish.

If the church is involved in hosting or organizing events for Catholic men where alcohol is served and the participants are allowed to imbibe to the point of drunkenness, the church could be legally liable for any resultant damages from letting the participants drive, as are all organizations that have a liquor permit.

asia53:

1. Probable? It either is or it isn’t. Nothing can be done about what you might have done or probably did, since the evidence is gone, or you didn’t get caught doing it. These men got lucky this time.

Yes, very lucky if any were driving.

It’s relatively easy to triangulate details to determine drunk driving. If there was a cash bar, participants would have paid for drinks. The company would have financial records of the transactions. Many cars have GPS that log trips and dates/times. Traffic cameras record who is driving. That’s pretty easy to triangulate, even if the participants cover for each other.