I am embarrassed, and I am angry

[kozlosap]

Flat out fraternity behavior. I would hold a meeting at a restaurant with the men involved and voice your gross displeasure with being the target of their little prank and that nextime you will go directly to their wives.

 

[kptrs]

The OP’s husband must be a real jerk, who has no respect for his wife. Even under the influence of alcohol…a guy may call his wife & tell her to get ready for a wild night…but to have his friends impersonate him…is kind of sick! A normal guy wouldn’t stoop this low. Then throw in the fact they are a Church “men’s group,” makes it very bizarre.

I like fun & teasing, but something like this would not be on my list!

See, here is a problem that presents itself when people respond with posts like this:

• Hubby is called a jerk and has harsh things said about him that are a bit over the top.
• Other posters jump to defend hubby because of said harsh posts that are over the top.
• Hubby appears to be getting “let off the hook” because people are being “mean” and not “forgiving” him.
• Focus is taken away from the actual issue.

He’s acting like a jerk, that’s true. And he made a mistake. But, as bad as the actual mistake was, the real issue is that he has not made a legitimate apology, is not defending his wife, and is not validating his wife’s feelings.

Everyone makes mistakes. But when you do, you work to heal the wounds, something which he is not doing.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Flat out fraternity behavior. I would hold a meeting at a restaurant with the men involved and voice your gross displeasure with being the target of their little prank and that nextime you will go directly to their wives.

Go to the priest, absolutely! But don’t go to the other men’s wives. That will never work out in the OP’s favor.

I’d probably be pretty unfriendly towards a woman who came to me with this. 1. I will ALWAYS take my husband’s side. 2. Even if he is in the wrong, I would never admit that to anyone else. Our disagreements are kept very private and publicly we are always a united front. 3. I would think the OP was a shrew of a wife herself if she came to me expecting me to discipline my husband. 4. I would assume that the OP has serious marital issues and was trying to make herself feel better by causing problems in my marriage.

Go to the priest. He’s the one with actual authority. When action is taken against the group, the wives will eventually hear about the incident and they can deal with their feelings then. But having a woman tattle to them will just make her look crazy and vindictive.

 

[EasterJoy]

Go to the priest, absolutely! But don’t go to the other men’s wives. That will never work out in the OP’s favor.

I’d probably be pretty unfriendly towards a woman who came to me with this. 1. I will ALWAYS take my husband’s side. 2. Even if he is in the wrong, I would never admit that to anyone else. Our disagreements are kept very private and publicly we are always a united front. 3. I would think the OP was a shrew of a wife herself if she came to me expecting me to discipline my husband. 4. I would assume that the OP has serious marital issues and was trying to make herself feel better by causing problems in my marriage.

Go to the priest. He’s the one with actual authority. When action is taken against the group, the wives will eventually hear about the incident and they can deal with their feelings then. But having a woman tattle to them will just make her look crazy and vindictive.

You really act to the world as if your husband can do no wrong, to the point of automatically treating anyone who comes to you with a complaint about your husband as if she’s trying to break up your marriage?

Honestly, I cannot believe how much cover so many people are giving to guys who are acting like such jerks–who do something like this and then brag about it in front of everyone in the parish the next day! What, is a parish just a middle school filled with adolescent politics among people with children of their own and full-time jobs? Oh, gosh, don’t call them on it, because it might break up their marriages!! Heaven forbid that you not absorb all their disgusting humor, lest their wives be angry with you about your unwillingness to keep their childish pranks in the dark!! Your husband won’t give me an apology for treating me like that, and I’m a “tattle tale”?!?* Oh good grief!!*

Why is this kind of behavior even remotely tolerated?? It shouldn’t be tolerated in middle school, it shouldn’t be tolerated in high school, it shouldn’t be tolerated coming from fraternity boys or privileged athletes, and it really and especially should not be tolerated in men who presume to join a Catholic men’s group!!

It is better to go to the pastor, yes, but I wouldn’t shield a single man from letting his wife know what he did to me, if I’d confronted him and gotten no message but, “I’d do it all over again and enjoy the memory for years to come!” If she wanted to act as if it is my fault that the men’s group did something like that, I’d really wonder about her grip on reality, not to mention her dim view of what kind of treatment I and other women like me deserved from her husband. If she were to turn on me simply for letting her know the truth about what her husband feels free to do to me and the other women out there, she certainly couldn’t be counted among my friends, that is for sure. I would not trust someone who would protect wrong-doers like that. Oh, yes, wives like that will be fine with it if I go to Father, as long as I don’t go to her. Rrrright. Wives like that want their husbands to have reputations they do not deserve, end of story. You can’t stay on their good sides except by hiding the truth.

That is the main point, after all. The OP isn’t making a fuss and refusing heartfelt apologies from men who see the error of their ways and have assured her they would never do something like this again. She is not trying to get her dig in, she is not agitating to expose the contrite to shame. She’s being told that she’s a bad sport if she doesn’t tolerate this. Wrong-o, Boys. Try Again.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

You really act to the world as if your husband can do no wrong, to the point of automatically treating anyone who comes to you with a complaint about your husband as if she’s trying to break up your marriage?

Honestly, I cannot believe how much cover so many people are giving to guys who are acting like such jerks–who do something like this and then brag about it in front of everyone in the parish the next day! What, is a parish just a middle school filled with adolescent politics among people with children of their own and full-time jobs? Oh, gosh, don’t call them on it, because it might break up their marriages!! Heaven forbid that you not absorb all their disgusting humor, lest their wives be angry with you about your unwillingness to keep their childish pranks in the dark!! Your husband won’t give me an apology for treating me like that, and I’m a “tattle tale”?!?* Oh good grief!!*

Why is this kind of behavior even remotely tolerated?? It shouldn’t be tolerated in middle school, it shouldn’t be tolerated in high school, it shouldn’t be tolerated coming from fraternity boys or privileged athletes, and it really and especially should not be tolerated in men who presume to join a Catholic men’s group!!

It is better to go to the pastor, yes, but I wouldn’t shield a single man from letting his wife know what he did to me, if I’d confronted him and gotten no message but, “I’d do it all over again and enjoy the memory for years to come!” If she wanted to act as if it is my fault that the men’s group did something like that, I’d really wonder about her grip on reality, not to mention her dim view of what kind of treatment I and other women like me deserved from her husband. If she were to turn on me simply for letting her know the truth about what her husband feels free to do to me and the other women out there, she certainly couldn’t be counted among my friends, that is for sure. I would not trust someone who would protect wrong-doers like that. Oh, yes, wives like that will be fine with it if I go to Father, as long as I don’t go to her. Rrrright. Wives like that want their husbands to have reputations they do not deserve, end of story. You can’t stay on their good sides except by hiding the truth.

That is the main point, after all. The OP isn’t making a fuss and refusing heartfelt apologies from men who see the error of their ways and have assured her they would never do something like this again. She is not trying to get her dig in, she is not agitating to expose the contrite to shame. She’s being told that she’s a bad sport if she doesn’t tolerate this. Wrong-o, Boys. Try Again.

I definitely don’t think that they should “get away with it”, but I really don’t think that telling wives is a good idea. If you want to do a game of " he said, she said", that’s fine, but I (and hopefully most wives) would believe my husband. And even if I knew about this from my husband, I’m not going to chastise him to or in front if someone else.

 

[UbiCaritas]

I definitely don’t think that they should “get away with it”, but I really don’t think that telling wives is a good idea. If you want to do a game of " he said, she said", that’s fine, but I (and hopefully most wives) would believe my husband. And even if I knew about this from my husband, I’m not going to chastise him to or in front if someone else.

This is what I was trying to touch on, above. One rather big problem in all of this is that all the texts come from her husband’s phone. If they could be traced to the other guys, she’d have more evidence in her arsenal, so to speak; while I wouldn’t immediately believe my husband did this if I saw texts apparently coming from his phone like that, I’d want to have a talk with him ASAP, at the very least about putting a passcode on his phone, should his answer be that someone else picked up his phone and was messing around with it.

As it is right now, yes, she could be seen as just trying to cause trouble in others’ marriages. Which is why I suggested going to the priest ASAP with the husband to tell her side of the story–that and the fact that, again, that priest has both a right to know what’s going on in and at his church, and the responsibility to do anything reasonably in his power to make the church safe for everyone. Also, since the guys in question seem determined to keep bringing this stuff up, and the OP’s husband refuses to even tell them to knock it off, the priest is probably the best person to handle it.

Though if it does continue to happen over and over again, I wouldn’t be beyond having a chat with a local police officer about what, if any, resources are available to the OP. There may well not be any, but at the least, she could notify them that “Messers. X, Y, and Z keep making gross sexual remarks about me to my face and in public despite my giving them no encouragement. I’m getting a bit concerned about these guys, especially given that my daughter and I are sometimes home alone in the evenings and they know us well enough to know our schedules and where we live” and ask if they have any suggestions.

 

[EasterJoy]

I definitely don’t think that they should “get away with it”, but I really don’t think that telling wives is a good idea. If you want to do a game of " he said, she said", that’s fine, but I (and hopefully most wives) would believe my husband. And even if I knew about this from my husband, I’m not going to chastise him to or in front if someone else.

I will grant that you do not expect this to be kept a secret from the pastor, but I would count the man’s wife as among those who deserve to know, considering the nature of the offense. I think it would be grossly unfair to automatically shoot the messenger by assuming she must have bad motives or that a woman would not tell you that your husband insulted her unless her intention was to ruin your marriage. (Remember, too, that I did tell the OP that her attitude ought to be firm but still gentle, and not vindictive. That is very important!)

I didn’t expect you to chastise him at all, let alone in front of anyone. If I were to tell you this and all you did was to get my version and assure me that you’d talk to him, good enough. I only expect you to honestly ask him if he knows about this and if he does, what he intends to do to let his fellow parishioner know that this is not treatment that she should have to tolerate.

"If your brother sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector." Matt. 18:15-17

She has been to them, and they doubled-down in expecting her to absorb this undeserved insult for the sake their amusement. The next thing to do is to take one or two others along with her to confront them again. Who is a more discrete choice than the pastor and the man’s wife? If neither the pastor nor the man’s family brought him around, then you expose the matter more generally. If he is still recalcitrant after that, the Lord says that you simply put him out of the circle of those you have in a position of trust at all.

 

[WillyAL]

I really don’t think you get it.

I think I get it, and I do understand where you are coming from. I think we just disagree on how serious this situation is. My position is that the sooner this is put in the past, the better everyone is going to be.

Tell me how you explain to your pastor that you knew that his Catholic “men’s” group was acting like immature, juvenile, drunken “frat boys” who “obviously don’t know how to behave themselves,” to the point that the majority of them offered no apology to her at all, but rather crowed to her face about how funny it was, and you said nothing to him about it. Remember: the crowing happened when they were sober. If they were apologetic, so that she decided it would not be repeated, fine. The pastor would understand that. If they were unapologetic? He deserves to know, because his “men’s group” is out of control.

As I think about it, you’re probably right that the priest should not be kept out of the loop. You’re right that it’s “his” men’s group that is behaving badly, and that he is ultimately responsible. Although it doesn’t seem to be the case in this situation, if one of these frat boys got drunk at a men’s group function and killed someone on the way home, everyone even remotely involved is getting sued, including the parish and the priest. And there is no denying that they way they behaved towards the OP was way out of line. These adult middle schoolers need to be reined in.

I still think that running to the other wives would be a mistake. As I mentioned before, they know there’re married to frat boys. Having some other woman remind them is not going to be well received.

 

[WillyAL]

The thing that threatens this marriage won’t be that she won’t tolerate being treated with disrespect. The thing that would threaten her marriage is if her husband stubbornly backs up his so-called “Catholic men” friends in thinking that she is a bad sport if she doesn’t!

Respectfully, no.

The thing that could possibly threaten this marriage is the fact that they would both rather be “right” than to eat a little crow and move on together in a harmonious fashion. She knows that she is “right” when she asserts that she was disrespected. He knows that he is “right” when he asserts that she in overreacting. I think most of us could agree that, in this situation, the OP clearly has a better claim to “rightness.” I guess she just has to decide what it’s worth to her to stake that claim. Only she can make that determination. (But the rest of us can have fun arguing about it.)

 

[EasterJoy]

As I think about it, you’re probably right that the priest should not be kept out of the loop. You’re right that it’s “his” men’s group that is behaving badly, and that he is ultimately responsible. Although it doesn’t seem to be the case in this situation, if one of these frat boys got drunk at a men’s group function and killed someone on the way home, everyone even remotely involved is getting sued, including the parish and the priest. And there is no denying that they way they behaved towards the OP was way out of line. These adult middle schoolers need to be reined in.

I still think that running to the other wives would be a mistake. As I mentioned before, they know there’re married to frat boys. Having some other woman remind them is not going to be well received.

Sometimes, I give these answers from the stand point of living in a parish for a long time and knowing everyone else. That is the kind of parish I grew up in and the kind of parish I am in now. I know both the men and their wives quite well; none of them are strangers. The group expectation is that when you do something that you have no reason to be proud of, you apologize. If word gets around because you wouldn’t apologize after insulting someone, you have yourself to thank. Just apologize, don’t do it again, and let’s keep moving.

The main thing is to stay calm but to firmly insist that these guys recognize that this is unbecoming behavior, insist that they show that they get that they mistakenly hurt the feelings of someone I suspect that they both like and respect very much, and insist that they resolve that their group won’t wink at this kind of thing any more. It was a mistake; let it not be repeated. Once that is resolved, then yes, let it go.

 

[Xantippe]

I think I get it, and I do understand where you are coming from. I think we just disagree on how serious this situation is. My position is that the sooner this is put in the past, the better everyone is going to be.

But you don’t really know it’s in the past at this point until the OP’s husband is able to explain to her why it’s going to be different. He might need to quit the group, promise not to drink with them, get an accountability partner, whatever, but he needs to do something differently.

Lord only knows what kind of smutty talk (or who knows these days, pics!) the OP’s husband’s buddies were hoping to get out of her.

 

[WillyAL]

The main thing is to stay calm but to firmly insist that these guys recognize that this is unbecoming behavior, insist that they show that they get that they mistakenly hurt the feelings of someone I suspect that they both like and respect very much, and insist that they resolve that their group won’t wink at this kind of thing any more. It was a mistake; let it not be repeated. Once that is resolved, then yes, let it go.

I can get on board with this.

 

[kptrs]

Respectfully, no.

The thing that could possibly threaten this marriage is the fact that they would both rather be “right” than to eat a little crow and move on together in a harmonious fashion. She knows that she is “right” when she asserts that she was disrespected. He knows that he is “right” when he asserts that she in overreacting. I think most of us could agree that, in this situation, the OP clearly has a better claim to “rightness.” I guess she just has to decide what it’s worth to her to stake that claim. Only she can make that determination. (But the rest of us can have fun arguing about it.)

You really don’t get it.

 

[Casilda]

I think we just disagree on how serious this situation is.

Exactly.

If this happened in an office work environ, the men in question would be fired. Harassment of this type is SERIOUS and not to be tolerated. It is not a ‘joke’ or ‘prank’, it is highly unwelcomed, demeaning and disgusting.

 

[pianistclare]

I can get on board with this.

Sometimes we need to keep in mind the posting history.
There are details that you are not aware of…our friend has been dealing with “a lot” for some time now.
I think this is what the long term members are alluding to.
It’s not about “just this one time”.
Let’s just pray for her to be able to cope and heal, and for him to get the help he needs in terms of drinking, his employment, and the company he keeps.
Peace.

 

[Neal76]

If this happened in an office work environ, the men in question would be fired.

If my home behaviour mirrored my office behaviour, I’d definitely get released from my “husband” role. Am I supposed to treat the ladies at work like my wife? She, for one, would be furious.

 

[EasterJoy]

Respectfully, no.

The thing that could possibly threaten this marriage is the fact that they would both rather be “right” than to eat a little crow and move on together in a harmonious fashion. She knows that she is “right” when she asserts that she was disrespected. He knows that he is “right” when he asserts that she in overreacting. I think most of us could agree that, in this situation, the OP clearly has a better claim to “rightness.” I guess she just has to decide what it’s worth to her to stake that claim. Only she can make that determination. (But the rest of us can have fun arguing about it.)

There are certain feelings that we shouldn’t just stuff. These would be examples:

• I feel dirty. Yucky…*.
  This is a deep offense that goes to how she feels that these men see her.

…while my husband has apologized, after all of the men coming up to me today I feel like I want a whole additional apology on top of it!..
The way they handled their offense after they sobered up was itself a second offense, and perhaps the worst of the two, since it was to her face, in public, and committed after they might have reflected on what they did to her.

*…He has apologized, but he also says that I am over-reacting. And each time he says that, the more I feel disrespected… *
When you seek forgiveness, you don’t argue with the person you hurt if she tries to tell you that what you did hurt more than you thought it did.

…He says it is unfair to punish everybody for his stupid move. He initiated it. But everybody got a laugh out of it—at my expense. And when I have tried to talk to him about some kind of consequence to the Men’s Club, he got SO angry and yelled at me about being high and mighty. …
If he’s saying it serves no one’s spiritual well-being to seek vengeance, he is right. If he’s saying that grown men can blame someone else when they did so much as to stand by and watch this without trying to stop it, he’s wrong. They do owe her an apology. He shouldn’t try to lie to them and imply that he didn’t lead them to do anything “that wrong.” He shouldn’t hold them in such low regard that he assumes they wouldn’t want to apologize when their practical joke really hurt someone’s feelings very deeply.

When you take a legitimate complaint to your spouse and your spouse tries to shout you down into dropping it, that creates a little hidden pocket of infection that is going to fester and need draining some day. The “infection” isn’t carrying a grudge. It is the wariness and hurt that comes from forcing someone to keep you in a position of trust after you have violated her trust and told her that there was no violation. The bruise is felt every time the victim is put into a situation of having to trust what these guys will do, if left to their own devices. It is felt again every time they are so flippant with the feelings of someone else, too. When these things are kept in the darkness and everyone tries to pretend they aren’t there, they don’t heal with time. Very often, they get worse.

The same thing would happen if she were to deny up and down that anything was wrong when she was actually feeling very hurt, angry and wary of being hurt again. He’d know that what she said and how she acted didn’t match. He couldn’t trust her. He’d start to become paranoid about whether he would know it if he had offended her or if he could believe her when she said nothing was wrong. That harms marriages, too.

If memory servers correctly, she said that one of the men expressed regret for what happened. Perhaps her husband could go to that one guy and get guidance about how to handle this with the group with the least amount of drama possible. After all, she doesn’t want vengeance. She just wants admission that she shouldn’t have to permit this kind of disrespect, and that they will avoid doing this to her or anyone else. If this guy, knowing their pastor, believes that the matter can be handled without involving the priest, then I would say to try that first.

 

[EasterJoy]

If my home behaviour mirrored my office behaviour, I’d definitely get released from my “husband” role. Am I supposed to treat the ladies at work like my wife? She, for one, would be furious.

The case where you treated the women at work as these Catholic men treated the wife of one of their members is what was meant. If you told a co-worker to take the kind of taunting that this woman is being asked to take, you’d be out of there as soon as HR got wind of it.

How is it that a daughter of the Lord does not deserve far more respect from the men at her church, the ones who ought to be more respectful of women than the men in the world, since they serve the law of love and the desire to please God and not the civil law that rules by mere fear of reprisal?

 

[bitterhope]

I’ll pray for you. You seem like a very good and loving person. I am not nearly so nice and therefore I won’t offer any advice right now. I realize your family is dealing with an awful lot. You do not deserve to be treated this way. You deserve better. I have unfortunately seen this behavior in both men’s and women’s groups at a few different parishes over the years. It is why, unfortunately, my husband and I refuse to sign up for any of that stuff. It tends to harm my faith life because it isn’t right that this type of behavior occurs at events sponsored by the Church. It shouldn’t happen anywhere, but it hurts worse in religious settings.

 

[WillyAL]

You really don’t get it.

Actually, I do get it. You and I just don’t agree about it.

If this happened in an office work environ, the men in question would be fired. Harassment of this type is SERIOUS and not to be tolerated. It is not a ‘joke’ or ‘prank’, it is highly unwelcomed, demeaning and disgusting.

If this happened at work and was on ongoing situation, the men would deserve to be fired. A woman at work isn’t able to avoid the men harassing her. This would be a textbook example of a hostile work environment in some juristictions. That is not the case, however, in the OP’s situation. Laws against sexual harassment do not prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents. Although these men are guilty of some very bad behavior, what they did does not meet the legal definition of sexual harassment.

Let’s just pray for her to be able to cope and heal, and for him to get the help he needs in terms of drinking, his employment, and the company he keeps.

I can get on board with this too.