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JimG
Guest
I would add that while sexual complementarity is an anatomical reality, the idea of sexual “orientation,” is itself a social construct.
I am Gay and Engaged, I would return to the Church if Francis would acquiesce
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Vic_Taltrees_UK
Guest
Zeldarocks, sorry I lost my rag. It wasn’t because of you.
Daddygirl asks some good questions at 7.20 a.m on the 30th. There are more people at this forum who know what you are going through, too.
Don’t stay away from us a whole year - let us know how things are going.
I’ve read about things you’ve been through over the years.
I’ve known pentecostal-ish and fundamentalist-ish people, I know how they tick. I’ve been a close observer of the Catholic Charismatic Movement since shortly after it began.
I am sad about events in the world.
I’ve had prophecies said over me. One of them came true.
It sounds like you haven’t found enough friendship in your family of origin.
The gifts you received as you explored the Catholic faith were real but they were sudden and not very deeply rooted to begin with because at first that’s how things are.
You need relationships that share with you in faith in Jesus Christ.
At times, you were badly advised on this forum, e.g that it would take 5 minutes to prepare you for faith.
Zeldarocks, I want you not to be sentimental about a thing. Nor about a single person.
Zeldarocks, I want you to challenge the Catholic Church. I want you to issue it a genuine challenge and not a false challenge.
I have fought my way into the Catholic Church, and not to give clearly identifying detail I have not related the events in full.
The Catholic Church is unlike what you will mostly have read.
I want you to challenge the Church to share a place with you in works of mercy. To intercede for you and along with you for others. To study Scriptures with you. To show you how from their own ongoing experience to cultivate fruits of conversion of heart, year in year out.
If any Catholic authority has denied you these things, I want you to call them out.
What you should demand of them is to give you this place in their lives permanently. Not to drop you like a stone after 8 months.
They won’t know what you are talking about. But tell them you aren’t going to take no for an answer. Come here and describe what sort of a person you spoke with, what they did and didn’t say, and we will advise you some more. We’ll advise you how to keep on praying. Be patient with them because God will bring about good in your life.
You are probably shy like I was. It’s easy for people to find the knack of putting us off.
I hope that they will stop talking about sacraments (other than confirmation and - in its proper context - confession).
You and I are like Jacob. It doesn’t matter whether we are villains or not. We need to eventually realise that we are grappling with God and we will be helped by Him, we will be strong with Him.
It’s true that you should delay indefinitely taking any step that will complicate things for you. You seem to propose placing your faith in the politicians that have only just invented this caper.
Do the “fundamentalist pentecostals” preach chastity at the same time as they preach unfriendliness?
You and your friend need many deep, steady relationships, then you can both resume fulfilling the gifts and potentials spoken of over and around you, which you mentioned in your previous posts.
The Pope who has not written his document yet, is criticising the “doctors of the law” who impose a sacrament that is an outer substitute for inner grace. That is the only way to God, they have ruled. If you bend them to your will, they will not help you. They too are politicians.
Please, please, please stay in touch.
Maybe some of the pentecostals are friendlier and more supportive towards the Catholic Church and deeper thinkers and more sensitive. I hope they can carry on helping you.
We’ve got to take ourselves with a healthy kind of seriousness. It’s never too late to learn good boundaries. Don’t give up hope like everyone around you. Remember all the good words that’s been spoken around you and over you in previous years - it doesn’t matter by what “unlikely” people or how long ago.
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kozlosap
Guest
Our young people have enough trouble understanding that the Church sees murder and co-habitation as the same mortal sin and now you assert that if only people didn’t brag about their sexual sins or if gay individuals slunk back into their closets that the Church would be more accepting? No, no, no
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BornInMarch
Guest
It is understandable of you feel alienated from the church because of their policies.
But Please Please Please don’t feel alienated from God Himself because of this. If you’re not comfortable going to church, at least pray at home or read the bible. There are some catholic theologians who support homosexual
There are few things more heartbreaking than when someone renounces God and becomes an Atheist because of other human’s actions [the only reasonable reason for losing faith in God Himself is “I can’t see the evidence”; the actions of other humans shouldn’t enter into it].
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AFerri48
Guest
Question, because I am curious.
If two men or two women were to get civilly wed, and refrained from ANY sort of sexual intercourse and just lived together because they enjoyed each others company. Would that be sinful?
If two men or two women were to get civilly wed, and refrained from ANY sort of sexual intercourse and just lived together because they enjoyed each others company. Would that be sinful?
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curlycool89
Guest
Just because you believe it and link to what would very well be considered a fringe opinion doesn’t make it true.
On the other hand, modern psychological studies have a pretty good consensus that sexual orientation is something that is set in a person from a very young age or even before.
The biggest evidence you can probably take from Exodus, the largest ex-gay organization (which shutdown several years ago and basically called bull on its entire mission). As an organization that was dedicated to changing people’s orientation, one quote really says it all: "I never saw one of our members or other Exodus leaders or other Exodus members become heterosexual, so deep down I knew that it wasn’t true.”
If sexual orientation was a construct then it shouldn’t get in the way. What the reality is is that people are attracted to others (some to the opposite sex, some to the same sex, and some to both) in an innate way that is fundamentally unchangeable.
Also, just because some guy comes up with an idea doesn’t make it true. You can come up with all the logical coherent philosophies you want, but they are meaningless if they don’t connect with reality. We have a word for those cases: fiction.
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JimG
Guest
And yet there are only two sexes: man and woman. They are sexually complementary, and only man and woman can ever engage in marital sex.
Sexual preferences have always been with us; like all preferences, they are not essential to our identity.
Sexual preferences have always been with us; like all preferences, they are not essential to our identity.
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
Amen!
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CHRISTINE77
Guest
What is a “nominal Catholic”?
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guanophore
Guest
It is not our place to condemn anyone, but to love you. But one has to wonder, why are you posting here if you “don’t care”?
The Church’s “attitude” is the “attitude” of Jesus. This being the case, you seem to be saying that Jesus has driven you from the church and the Gospel. Such a thing would be an absurd conclusion, so it seems that it is your choices, instead, that have alientated you.
The Pope, along with every other Catholic who is faithful to the teachings of Jesus, does not have the liberty to “acquiesce” to public opinion. Asking those who cling to the faith of Christ to “compromise” so that you can feel welcomed seems to be a lot to ask. That being said, the Church already welcomes LGBT persons just as they are. We are all sinners, and we are all welcome at the table of Christ, whether we are in relationships, or not. We are all called to forsake sin, pick up our cross, and follow Him.
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Robert_in_SD
Guest
Hello Zeldarocks:
I’m sorry for the situation you are in. I can only imagine the conflict that you feel. But I must ask, what is it that you want Pope Francis to “compromise?” Are you asking him to compromise the truth, or do you think that the Church’s consistent teaching on the nature of homosexual acts as sinful is something akin to a disciplinary rule that can be changed at whim? What is your rationale in support of the requested compromise on the issue? I honestly don’t understand the argument from what you posted.
Peace,
Robert
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Zeldarocks2
Guest
I merely wish that the Hierarchy would stop obsessing about these issues. I wish that they would take a “Don’t ask, Don’t tell” approach to sexuality in general, let that be a matter of individual conscience in the heart of the believer.
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Trident_H
Guest
Yeah. I can really understand that. I can really feel your pain in this. I wish I could even stand there with you. I wish I could make that exception for you.
Sorry man. These choices are hard sometimes. Totally. Brutally. Hard. And I just wish sometimes that those of us who had to make them were just as hard too. Because then it would be easy. Instead of agonizing.
Peace Zeldarocks. I wish you the very best. Which basically means I’m hoping you get the strength you need to do what you need to do. Instead of just what you want to do.
Please let me know if you make that choice in the end. Because if you do I’d like you to invite you to join our little online support group. For guys like us. Who choose the harder road. And sometimes just need to hang out with friends with the same view on that.
-Trident
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Zeldarocks2
Guest
At the end, I must follow my conscience, and my conscience tells me that the Church got it wrong.
I am and will always be a Catholic, for I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried; he descended into hell; on the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.
I am and will always be a Catholic, for I believe in God, the Father almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, and in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried; he descended into hell; on the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty; from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.
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lax16
Guest
Is the Catholic Church wrong on only this?
What if I disagree with the Church on something else? And my neighbor on something else again?
Where does it stop? Do we get to pick and choose?
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Dorothy
Guest
When we die and become before the most Holy and Just Judge, Our Lord Jesus Christ there will be no rationalization, no ifs, ands, or buts…for He suffered, died and rose in order to give us all the means we need to do His Holy Will according to His commandments. The time for Mercy is now!
And when we use those means (prayer, sacraments, righteous actions) we can have His Peace in the midst of chaos. Thus were the martyrs able to go to their deaths in His Peace!
And when we use those means (prayer, sacraments, righteous actions) we can have His Peace in the midst of chaos. Thus were the martyrs able to go to their deaths in His Peace!
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Gorgias
Guest
Yes, certainly you must. However, don’t forget that the call to follow our conscience also carries with it the obligation to form our conscience properly. If you’ve decided – in your process of discernment – that “the Church got it wrong”, then the natural question you might want to be prepared to answer is “why do you think that the Church got it wrong”? That is, if – as you say – you “believe in the holy Catholic Church”, then how is it that the institution founded by Christ, and given authority to ‘bind and loose’, and protected by the Holy Spirit, managed to get a question on morals wrong, which you personally believe that you got right?
I’m willing to hear a person say “this is my discernment and I must follow it”… but I think it’s fair to then ask “how can an individual person get it right and the divinely-granted teaching authority of the Church get it wrong”?
Blessings,
G.
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Trident_H
Guest
Well man I understand. I can’t say I’d make a different choice in your shoes. That’s why I’m keeping away from anything that could lead me to that kind of crossroads. Because really this choice isn’t being made right now. Not at this minute. It was made the first time you decided to go on a date. The first time you decided to get to know your guy a bit better. In fact this choice has been made about a hundred times already. So I’m not really surprised to see you following it all the way through.
But know that if you ever decide to change your mind in this. If you ever think things through on a solid night of deep thinking. Well then just remember that we’re all here waiting for you. To welcome you back. With open arms. Because we love you. And care about you. Even if we can’t support you. Even if maybe we even want to.
Peace Zeldarocks. Don’t drift too far away. Please stay within arm’s reach.
-Trident
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AFerri48
Guest
Just curious, if you want it to be judged on a case by case basis, how exactly would you go about that? Which same-sex couples should be allowed to receive and which ones shouldn’t?
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Vic_Taltrees_UK
Guest
I wish the Hierarchy and almost everybody else would stop obsessing about “solum sacramentum” and sacramentolatry.
You have so much else to believe on top of the creed - great to see it quoted.
Whilst this issue would presumably be just one of a very wide range that you would be invited to look at during a catechumenate, I am convinced there is no limit to the time you can spend in a catechumenate.
The main trouble with my ideas is, they probably haven’t been tried out very often!
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