I am not a Traditionalist

[SnorterLuster]

maurin;1825833:

SnorterLuster,

I should NOT have phrased that as a statement, but rather as a question: are you stating that there are no degrees in truth?

My point is that, as you stated above above, that if another religion contained the whole truth it would be Catholicism–I agree perfectly–but another religion can contain some truth, or parts of the truth.

In order to state my point, or try to, more clearly, everything participates in the Truth to varying degrees. Is that an acceptable statement to my position?

If I am following you, other religions have some of the truth, but not all of the truth? Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that the Lutheran’s have 80% of their doctrine is true and 20% is untrue or nicely put “in error.” You could be tempted to say that a Lutheran has most of the truth, so they are mainly in communion with Catholicism. I would disagree though. If the Lutheran’s don’t have 100% of the truth in their doctrine, they are still a false religion. On the continiuum I mentioned earlier, they would be very close to the truth (Catholicism), but they would still be on the continiuum of the untrue.

 

[palmas85]

maurin;1825989:

If I am following you, other religions have some of the truth, but not all of the truth? Let’s say, for the sake of argument, that the Lutheran’s have 80% of their doctrine is true and 20% is untrue or nicely put “in error.” You could be tempted to say that a Lutheran has most of the truth, so they are mainly in communion with Catholicism. I would disagree though. If the Lutheran’s don’t have 100% of the truth in their doctrine, they are still a false religion. On the continiuum I mentioned earlier, they would be very close to the truth (Catholicism), but they would still be on the continiuum of the untrue.

If something does not have the complete truth then part of what it has is a lie. That is very simple. So lets look at a few things from the monotheistic faiths…

Orthodox.have heard the Truth, accepted most of the truth but deny the rest.

Protestants, have heard the truth and threw away the truth when they split off and formed their own Churches. Since there are several thousand different variations in what they see to be truth their error is obvious…

Judaism had the truth then rejected or refused to accept Christ as the Messiah thereby denying the truth and accepting error and lies

Islam, knew the truth, apparently, rejected it and created error to replace it.

100% truth is truth 99% truth is a lie. Very simple. Not hard to understand at all. Any lie that is accepted as truth in effect makes the whole statement or institution suspect.

 

[maurin]

SnorterLuster and Dessert,

I am not sure if you are reading into my posts things that are not there. I find nothing in your responses that address what I have actually said. I will try to explain myself better below. However, I am in complete agreement with your replies, up to a certain point; that certain point is not actually germaine to our conversation.

Both of you, though, it seems to me are agreeing–to a certain extent–that, in the examples you have provided, there exists different degrees of participation in the truth. That has been my premise–whether or not I had made that clear is another matter. I am not at all arguing that partial truth is as good truth itself. Partial truth is not at all good. Full Truth is. I am a convinced Catholic. I am as faithful as I know how to be. I am certainly sure that as I grow in wisdom and in love, that my faithfulness will also.

This conversation began in response to a statement I made that, following Aristotle, truth can be found in the middle of extremes. I had, earlier on up on this thread, tried to make clear I was not referring to Truth–God–, but to a truth. The statement was made in the context of the battle between the perceived extreme liberals and the perceived extreme traditionalists.

 

[dessert]

Well I am sorry that I am not completely understanding either and I guess I get a outspoken a bit
I suppose it could seem that Aristotle, and I have not read any, and the in between the left and right I’m just guessing has to do with how much you want to “compromise” which I have done so in my life and maybe that is the better word to tell you how I see it. dessert

 

[dessert]

SnorterLuster;1826263:

If something does not have the complete truth then part of what it has is a lie. That is very simple. So lets look at a few things from the monotheistic faiths…

Orthodox.have heard the Truth, accepted most of the truth but deny the rest.

Protestants, have heard the truth and threw away the truth when they split off and formed their own Churches. Since there are several thousand different variations in what they see to be truth their error is obvious…

Judaism had the truth then rejected or refused to accept Christ as the Messiah thereby denying the truth and accepting error and lies

Islam, knew the truth, apparently, rejected it and created error to replace it.

100% truth is truth 99% truth is a lie. Very simple. Not hard to understand at all. Any lie that is accepted as truth in effect makes the whole statement or institution suspect.

I like this explanation 85
If someone denies any part of the trinity that person is denieing the entire. You will have an artficial faith not the real thing.The church tradition says to consider the outcome of the leaders of the faith.dessert

 

[maurin]

Well I am sorry that I am not completely understanding either and I guess I get a outspoken a bit
I suppose it could seem that Aristotle, and I have not read any, and the in between the left and right I’m just guessing has to do with how much you want to “compromise” which I have done so in my life and maybe that is the better word to tell you how I see it. dessert

Thank you for your apology, although I did not feel one was necessary. Your humility is a fine example for me to follow. Thank you. You are not outspoken. You have the conviction of your beliefs, which is quite admirable.

Aristotle is not really speaking about Truth the way Truth is being discussed in the context of these past 20 posts or so.

For example:

fat----------------------fit-------------------------skinny

fit is the ideal between the extremes of fat and skinny. (speaking as one who could stand to lose the weight of a small child, that is… ) Aristotle is not speaking about compromise at all. This can be found in his, “Nicomachean Ethics.”

 

[SnorterLuster]

SnorterLuster and Dessert,

This conversation began in response to a statement I made that, following Aristotle, truth can be found in the middle of extremes. I had, earlier on up on this thread, tried to make clear I was not referring to Truth–God–, but to a truth. The statement was made in the context of the battle between the perceived extreme liberals and the perceived extreme traditionalists.

I certainly meant no harm or meant to cause controversy. I was just trying to point out that, in your example, the truth is found in the extremes–that is there can be no compromise. Since this is a Catholic board, I put Aristotle’s comment in a Catholic context. I meant no disagreement with you, only with the statement by Aristotle. As I think about what you said, I certainly would not have disagreed if you had said that the liars, ignorant and mistaken lay on either side of the truth. Then, instead of the truth being on a continiuum, it would be at the top of a bell curve.

 

[maurin]

I certainly meant no harm or meant to cause controversy. I was just trying to point out that, in your example, the truth is found in the extremes–that is there can be no compromise. Since this is a Catholic board, I put Aristotle’s comment in a Catholic context. I meant no disagreement with you, only with the statement by Aristotle. As I think about what you said, I certainly would not have disagreed if you had said that the liars, ignorant and mistaken lay on either side of the truth. Then, instead of the truth being on a continiuum, it would be at the top of a bell curve.

Again, conviction of one’s beliefs is an admirable quality. I do believe that I had tried to make clear to you at least twice I was not using Aristotle’s quote in the discussion of the Truth–God, or the Revealed Truth of our Holy Mother Church. As far as putting Aristotle into a Catholic context, I think St. Thomas Aquinas did that much better than either of us could hope to do…

It is a pleasure conversing with you in Jesus’ Sacred Heart,

maurin

 

[dessert]

Thank you for your apology, although I did not feel one was necessary. Your humility is a fine example for me to follow. Thank you. You are not outspoken. You have the conviction of your beliefs, which is quite admirable.

Aristotle is not really speaking about Truth the way Truth is being discussed in the context of these past 20 posts or so.

For example:

fat----------------------fit-------------------------skinny

fit is the ideal between the extremes of fat and skinny. (speaking as one who could stand to lose the weight of a small child, that is… ) Aristotle is not speaking about compromise at all. This can be found in his, “Nicomachean Ethics.”

Me too I am a chubby grandmother and now paying a health club to tell me to get fit!

I guess Mr A is not the way I see it.
To me;

Fat, too skinny or anorexia
unhealthy…healthy, fit,
good health
just right skinny
The first can be caused by distorted thinking, depression or I just don’t care about me anymore.
Maybe no emotional support.
Or just plain our will power working against us.
If we focus on prayer God will reach us.
He wants us to be haealthy in our spiritual health too so that is why I see the dangers of deviating from the truth.

My priest last week said it is like when you have clogged arteries by cholesteral, which I am at that age, we can have our spiritual arteries clogged and need to turn to Jesus and Mary through prayer.dessert

 

[Sixtus]

I am overcome with emotions because Jesus is present, and everything else–bad singing, poorly or inappropriately dressed neighbors, the talkers–is swept away by His awesome presence,

And I hear Mary’s words from today’s Gospel ringing in my ears: “Do whatever He tells you.”

We are human. We are weak. We are mistakes upon mistakes on pilgrimage to perfection,

I am, for now at least, content to bear the pin-pricks of the Novus Ordo, because I do not have the courage to bear the wounds of the nails or the thorns or the lance. Well, not alone anyway…

I would love to attend a Traditional Latin Mass

AMEN

 

[Tomosaki]

Hello Rob,

Welcome. I attended an Eastern Orthodox parish for a number of years. I left for various reasons. I usually go to the NO, but try going to the diocesan indult when I am feeling well enough to make the trek. I’m fortunate that the parishes close to me are solid and the priests are faithful to the magisterium. If you ever get the chance, I recommend attending a TLM.

Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

Greetings! May the peace of the Lord be with you always!

I am new to this part of the CA forums. I spend most of my time in the Eastern Christian battleground.

Let me say, first of all, that I am inspired by the obvious love that you all have for not only our Lord but His Church. You all are very passionate people and that is absolutely how we should respond to our Lord and Savior - with passion. Thank you for your witness.

I am a convert. I became Catholic in 1993. I was raised in no faith tradition so all I have ever known is the NO Mass. I have been to many NO Masses in many parishes and have experienced incredible reverence and incredible irreverence. At one point in my journey the irreverence I experienced caused me to stop attending Mass and seriously consider becoming Eastern Orthodox. I started attending an Orthodox parish where the Divine Liturgy was just incredible. I could literally feel the presence of the saints. I was this close (holding index finger and thumb a 1/4 inch apart) from becoming Orthodox and probably would have had the priest not left the parish. I came to the conclusion that becoming Orthodox was not God’s will for my life.

I came hesitatingly back to my local parish. I left because of the “abuses” I had seen and knew what I would be facing. Could I handle it and remain faithful? Well, the “abuses” weren’t as bad or as numerous as I remembered. I’m not saying things are perfect because they aren’t perfect - I’m just not on heresy or abuse watch anymore. Trust me, I’m no namby pamby, everything is okay, Catholic. I used to get torked out of control about things that weren’t “right” in not only my parish but also in the Church as a whole. However, other things have become more important, or least equally important, to me as pristine liturgy. Some of those things are being able to receive the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior, worshipping as a family, the fact that my local parish is also my community (brothers and sisters that I see on a daily basis who I have a relationship with beyond our time at church on Sunday), etc.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that, as I travel my journey, my focus has shifted from my own propensity to be a liturgical cop to one who seeks to embrace the good and beautiful where I can find it. And, I have found that my own, local, parish isn’t so full of abuses as I once thought.

Peace,

Rob

 

[Image_of_God]

Hello Rob,

Welcome. I attended an Eastern Orthodox parish for a number of years. I left for various reasons. I usually go to the NO, but try going to the diocesan indult when I am feeling well enough to make the trek. I’m fortunate that the parishes close to me are solid and the priests are faithful to the magisterium. If you ever get the chance, I recommend attending a TLM.

Why did you leave? I mean I don’t understand. The Eastern Orthodox offer almost everything that Catholicism does.

 

[maurin]

Why did you leave? I mean I don’t understand. The Eastern Orthodox offer almost everything that Catholicism does.

Maybe the answer can be found in this part of your question: “The Eastern Orthodox offer almost everything that Catholicism does.”? ‘Almost’ isn’t all, and, for some it may not be enough. Only a thought.

 

[AnnieD]

Our Parish does Perpetual Adoration …let me tell you you guys will see a change in your parish once you start adoration (all for the good)!

Our Parish has had Perpetual Adoration for about 19 years, and when our Priest retired, we got a new Priest, and we got Movie Screens ( 2 of them), Bongo Drums, Teen Mass, Handing out Clay during the Mass, for parishioners to make Cups, and then bringing some of them up to the front of the church, and our Priest held his hand over their heads, and the parishioners were to clap for the best cup. Sometimes the change isn’t good even With Perpetual Adoration.

A Latin Mass is not allowed in our Church or in any church in our diocese. When the Bishop was asked why he was not enforcing Liturgical Norms, he said “because I choose not to.”

I’m storming heaven with prayers for a meaningful Mass in our area.


Annie

 

[TNT]

…
A Latin Mass is not allowed in our Church or in any church in our diocese. When the Bishop was asked why he was not enforcing Liturgical Norms, he said “because I choose not to.”

I’m storming heaven with prayers for a meaningful Mass in our area.

Annie

When they ask why you no longer fill the collection kettle…“because I choose not to finance liturgical perversion.”

Every time you put a penny in you are saying “yes I do”.

 

[maurin]

When they ask why you no longer fill the collection kettle…“because I choose not to finance liturgical perversion.”

Every time you put a penny in you are saying “yes I do”.

and an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. There got to be a middle ground.

 

[netmilsmom]

and an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. There got to be a middle ground.

The middle ground is what Cardinal Arinze says to do.
Find a good parish (if you can) that fits your needs and give your money there.

If you can’t find one, perhaps withdrawing your money until you can is the way the market works.

 

[maurin]

The middle ground is what Cardinal Arinze says to do.
Find a good parish (if you can) that fits your needs and give your money there.

If you can’t find one, perhaps withdrawing your money until you can is the way the market works.

I do not know if I agree with your analogy of ‘Church as market.’

Of course, Cardinal Arinze’s suggestion is the best so far.

 

[netmilsmom]

I do not know if I agree with your analogy of ‘Church as market.’

Well, the excuse for not giving an Indult for the TLM in most places is that “no one wants it” or basically, the market won’t support it.

I’m not sure “market” IS the best word, but I can’t think of another.

 

[Georgess]

Having read only part of the posts , love the way some of the posters have it phrased - how untruth goes for its ride with the truth … and so on …so true …

and how God shows us the same , in His creation …in the truth of our bodies …how a little aberrant part of our systems sometimes create lot more havoc …like the falsehood of the aberrant chain (that is with all the true chains ) in sickle cell anemia , causing all the pain and misery … or a little extra , like in trisomy 21 …mental retardation and all…

Interesting to read on the recommendation , to use biblical concept of using the perishable wealth to make friends …( with better parishes , in this case ) .Having read that there is papal directive to have the Rosary recited before or after Mass and also the St. Michael prayer, if the faithful could ask for same , when they make donations for Holy Mass, that the above be included and even add extra for same , if that would be possible …

In case these are areas where disobediance is having its effects …again just a thought …and hopefully not against Church teachings …

Even those of some of the Eastern Rites that are struggling , and think that the way to bring back more into the fold is to fully go back to the old traditions , putting away all that is considered Latinisation ( which is very puzzling … Bl. Mother or The Popes have never said that the Rosary or Adoration is not for The East ) and if at all , being faithful to the same could be the very weapons they need to help their own people , to keep the faith as well as their other traditions !