I am not a Traditionalist

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mdstanzel said:
I understand that people feel the need to express themselfs on these boards. I just think that we need to be reminded of the importance of the Majesterium, Tradition and Scripture (MTS). MTS - keep too it and self mortification should include efforts in at least trying to understand and accept as with the Eastern Church and the Western Church concept of keeping the peace. No wonder we are a combative people, always at war with those that disagree.

I learned something from my experience as a militant Protestant against the Catholic Church’s “screwed” up mixed up inconsistant teachings. People have a hard time remembering that Christ wants us to “Love one another as I have loved you.” Where’s the Love? WHERE IS THE LOVE! Do we not have the Love of Christ within us? Where is our faith? We miss the point and legalize our beliefs to defend our preference. We miss the point of the Mass and I feel that that is sinful. We are so engaged in our own physical environmental tastes that we forget about others physical environmental tastes. Are we not supposed to engage in self mortification and therefore self denial of our own preferences and desires. We are engaging in judgement of others and not letting God be the judge. We think we know it all and better than the Church and therefore better than God. St. Faustina desired to receive the worst that life had to offfer. She was “allowed” to be the cleaning lady of her order. Read about her or watch EWTN specials on her. Her life is very inspiring. The Bishops (that includes the Pope) are very successful in their efforts to unite. I choose to submit in love for Christ so that I do not offend Him.

The Mass is heaven on earth as Scott Hahn so eloquently put. We are missing the real point of the Liturgy. No matter what mass we prefer we should know that we are in the presence of the KING who is our FATHER. That makes us sons and daughters of the our FATHER, the KING, our GOD. We should be mindful of that and ACT LIKE HIM for He sent his only begotten son so that we might live. I’m a very cognitive person, but I am also feely. But I know what the mass is and I understand where it’s going. I’m a soldier, formerly at least. I like to believe that the Liturgy of the Eucharist is just as meaningful in the administrative facilities thrown together before I or my sons enter into battle that may be lead to death. Where’s the Love. [Sounds like I’m practicing my preacher skills 🙂 ]

If the Bishops really stood up and forced their hand with what they are trying to accomplish in the Church, i.e. God’s people/children, thousands, if not millions, would flea the umbrella of the Church and that would not be Agape LOVE like God. No matter what we post, God is still in control. Thank God.👍
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Well I too think it is worth repeating, I do lose track of peoples’ motives of love and care in my life and in my church and even with my husband so I ask god’s forgiveness for that and my brothers and sisters in the family of the church. dessert
 
Catholic_Dad said:
Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

Greetings! May the peace of the Lord be with you always!

I am new to this part of the CA forums. I spend most of my time in the Eastern Christian battleground.

Let me say, first of all, that I am inspired by the obvious love that you all have for not only our Lord but His Church. You all are very passionate people and that is absolutely how we should respond to our Lord and Savior - with passion. Thank you for your witness.

I am a convert. I became Catholic in 1993. I was raised in no faith tradition so all I have ever known is the NO Mass. I have been to many NO Masses in many parishes and have experienced incredible reverence and incredible irreverence. At one point in my journey the irreverence I experienced caused me to stop attending Mass and seriously consider becoming Eastern Orthodox. I started attending an Orthodox parish where the Divine Liturgy was just incredible. I could literally feel the presence of the saints. I was this close (holding index finger and thumb a 1/4 inch apart) from becoming Orthodox and probably would have had the priest not left the parish. I came to the conclusion that becoming Orthodox was not God’s will for my life.

I came hesitatingly back to my local parish. I left because of the “abuses” I had seen and knew what I would be facing. Could I handle it and remain faithful? Well, the “abuses” weren’t as bad or as numerous as I remembered. I’m not saying things are perfect because they aren’t perfect - I’m just not on heresy or abuse watch anymore. Trust me, I’m no namby pamby, everything is okay, Catholic. I used to get torked out of control about things that weren’t “right” in not only my parish but also in the Church as a whole. However, other things have become more important, or least equally important, to me as pristine liturgy. Some of those things are being able to receive the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior, worshipping as a family, the fact that my local parish is also my community (brothers and sisters that I see on a daily basis who I have a relationship with beyond our time at church on Sunday), etc.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that, as I travel my journey, my focus has shifted from my own propensity to be a liturgical cop to one who seeks to embrace the good and beautiful where I can find it. And, I have found that my own, local, parish isn’t so full of abuses as I once thought.

Peace,

Rob
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I too debated all the wrongs and rights in my mind when watching all the things going on in church the “indults” I quess they call it but have settled on just letting go and letting God rule because the rest gives me a headache and the more senior members have been leading for a lot longer than me and have been through many priests so I just pray for all. dessert
 
TNT said:
This all gets selectively goofy. I mean, the Churches of Christ think Organs in liturgy are anathema because…well, they did not use them in 60AD!
Of course, the Last Supper used a common chalice, so, there are church splits over “1 cuppers” & “many paper cuppers”.

Pius XII has it right…as usual.
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Spot on!!! 👍
 
In the end, Liturgical actions are not a mindless imitation of ancient developments nor are they there for any personal preference, although that is what it has come to.

ALL the actions are meant to express some Divine reality in the liturgy.
For instance. In the hand is how man normally eats or did eat his everyday food. Even today, BBQ, chips, cones, etc.
Since “Not as common food do we partake…”
The style or method is reception FROM Persona Christi…the person of Christ Himself in His Priest, straight to our tongue and not as common food…in the hand.
This is the jist of the TLM practice.
The NO jist is from your neighbor (EMHC) do you partake as “common food” in the hand. Not directly from the Persona Christi.

Get the idea?
In the TLM & other old E-Rites everything had a meaning.
In the NO mindset nearly everthing is “what is MY preference or feeling”. The Universal meanings are irrelevant in most cases.
 
The reality is that subjective experience is down to the individual. So statements like, “The Tridentine makes me feel truly reverent in the presence of the most Holy God” does not constitute the whole of people’s experience and is not an argument for the Tridentine as the Mass for all peoples! Therefore, rolling out the Tridentine will not equal more reverence. Well, it could be but at a risk of coldness of heart.
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I’m not going to say that the traditional Mass is better or that the NO is better, but lets just think for a second. What if, as other folks have suggested on CA forums, the Pauline Rite was mandated to be celebrated as it ideally should be-with a whole lot more Tridentine flavor and a whole lot less other stuff. We have the Pauline Mass with the new calendar, the different structure, some vernacular, but celebrated more akin to what tradition, the GIRM, recent Popes, etc. suggest and would those folks that love their NO Mass still be cool with that?

I respect folks that legitimately like the NO Mass. I myself see some advantages in it in its theoretical status (i.e. ad orientem celebration, more Latin, more chant, more smells and bells, etc) and would be perfectly happy with that. However, I wonder that many folks might actually like all the “innovations” and personality stamped onto it by their pastors and all sorts of nonsense fed to them by progressives and not any good and solid theological or traditional reasons.
 
People really mis interpert. The gates of hell will not prevail over the church as a whole, that does not mean all local dioceses are protected. We saw that during the Arian heresy, and also when large numbers of Bishops went with the local princes in the 1500s and took entire dioceses into Lutheranism.
maurin said:
And another take on your post might run: “And who are these weak, wet rag, yellow Bishops who would allow anyone to tell them what is right. After all, they are the successors to the Apostles, what they bind below is bound above, what they loose below is loosed above. The gates of Hell will not prevail against them… etc. etc.”

I don’t buy this paragraph of your above at all, with all due respect to you.
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ComradeAndrei said:
…
I respect folks that legitimately like the NO Mass. I myself see some advantages in it in its theoretical status (i.e. ad orientem celebration, more Latin, more chant, more smells and bells, etc) and would be perfectly happy with that. …
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You are rather precisely describing the ANGLICAN USE version of the NO Mass.
 
maurin said:
(applause…)
Aristotle speaks of truth being found in the middle of two extremes.
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Aristotle is very wrong. That is a very modern way to think of truth, maybe not so modern as I once thought. Truth is not fluid, bendable or malleable in any way.

Truth is what it is. It is rigid, unmovable that’s why people are afraid of real truth, they want a version they can feel good about so they make their own.
 
TNT said:
Honesty, Yes.
Sincerity, not.
Primarity, and above all other adjectives, it is REALITY.
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Well that makes sense but not in the dict. as it has been said that the Holy Spirit brings enlightenment to us of our sin and if we want to face the real truth or reality it will be somewhat of an extreme.
So the motives are really between us the trinity and the confessional with the priest because if I start going around telling everyone my motives or sharing them with all they will end up with the simmilar headache I get from thinking about them too long without confessing.
If reality is one extreme then denial is the other? dessert
but I have to go to work so will get back later!
 
SnorterLuster said:
Catholicism vs. Satanism and the truth is somewhere in between?
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The truth is in the middle of two extremes. You just have a misplaced definition of where the extremes are. Think of it this way, Materialism (matter is the only good) versus Manicheism (only the spirit is good in any way) and in the Middle is the Catholic Church.

The truth is the Truth, and there is only one way to hit the truth, but there are many ways to miss, just like there is one way to hit the bullseye but there are thousands of ways to miss it.

I think the poster you responded to was trying to show that you can miss the truth by going too far to the left, and you can miss it by going too far to the right as well.

A lone Raven
 
TNT said:
In the end, Liturgical actions are not a mindless imitation of ancient developments nor are they there for any personal preference, although that is what it has come to.

ALL the actions are meant to express some Divine reality in the liturgy.
For instance. In the hand is how man normally eats or did eat his everyday food. Even today, BBQ, chips, cones, etc.
Since “Not as common food do we partake…”
The style or method is reception FROM Persona Christi…the person of Christ Himself in His Priest, straight to our tongue and not as common food…in the hand.
This is the jist of the TLM practice.
The NO jist is from your neighbor (EMHC) do you partake as “common food” in the hand. Not directly from the Persona Christi.

Get the idea?
In the TLM & other old E-Rites everything had a meaning.
In the NO mindset nearly everthing is “what is MY preference or feeling”. The Universal meanings are irrelevant in most cases.
Click to expand...
:clapping: I just might add that in the NO, the mindset is also focused on laity particpation to the point of obscuring the role of the priest.
 
just an observation:

those who are in traditional parishes tend to live by the church’s teaching against birth control. those in NO parishes who are living the church’s teaching against birth control are open to traditional forms of worship (or, they agree that it has its place). they are usually not “anti-traditional”. those in NO parishes who couldn’t care less about the church’s traditional teaching on birth control (much less, live it) also couldn’t care less about its traditional forms of worship.

just an observation. those who respect traditional teaching have a respect for traditional worship. i’m not saying they prefer traditional worship, but they don’t think it is a bad thing.

any nay-sayers?
 
[SIGN]Majesterium, Tradition, Scripture[/SIGN]

[SIGN]Majesteium, Tradition, Scripture[/SIGN]
Father Corapi Style
I think he said it twice.

as Monte Pithon put it from the inquisition days,

:mad: [SIGN]“BURN HER!”[/SIGN]

:o
😃 😃 😃 😉
 
Don’t get me wrong, I love the TLM. That is my preference. But if someone gets out of line with the Friars at my parish, look out. I’m going to confession for having belted someone.
:irish1:
 
You are rather precisely describing the ANGLICAN USE version of the NO Mass.
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Except the Latin part but yeah, something like that. I think that this was how it would have been intended by the Council Fathers (as per more learned authors and theologians). The whole “anything goes” NO Mass is folks with an agenda walking a fine line.
 
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