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cfrancis
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I thought we were to stick with the writings of Paul - as you’ve admonished several posters already - as opposed to extra-Biblical writings. Please, play by your own rules!
I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes
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Reformed
Guest
Of course, but I posted it as a reaction of the posting of the Lutheran Joint Declaration. You guys started it first.
Now back to the Apostle Paul and his obession with the gospel of God’s grace. We should know by now that we have a different definition on the word grace too.
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Pixie_Dust
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Why would I read an outdated declaration, when unity is found with the newer and more accurate Joint Declaration from 1999? I cannot accept Sola Scriptura because it’s not taught in the Bible. If you were being intellectually honest, you would admit that you hold dearly to doctrines that are not explicitly spelled out in Scripture (unless you have found that “Trinity” verse for me, that is…).
I cannot accept Sola Fide for simple fact that “faith alone” is soundly condemned by Scripture. True, saving faith is never alone.
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Reformed
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These are all great Scriptures (I ignored the commentaries) but what do they have to do with the gospel proclamation? I’m glad you guys are willing to play along.More from our Catholic Father in the Faith, St Paul the Apostle, with commentary in light blue so anyone who wishes to ignore it may do so. To read it, simply highlight it with your mouse.I’m never sure from one post to the next whether Reformed wants commentary or not.
I Timothy 3:1 - Faithful is the saying, If a man seeketh the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
If an office holder dies, another should always be appointed to fill the office - that’s how succession works - you can’t have a vacant office. If the President dies, we immediately get a new one sworn in. When each apostle died, another was appointed to take their office. They appointed or ordained other Bishops as well, and they created new offices as the Church grew.
I Timothy 1:18 - This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight, 19 keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.
Paul is passing on authority to Timothy and Titus as a father passes on authority to his son - an inheritance that would one day be passed on to Timothy’s successors.
Titus 1:4 To Titus, my true child in a common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
Paul writes to others in regards to how they are to receive Timothy:
1 Corinthians 4:17 - For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, and he will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, just as I teach everywhere in every church.
Timothy was sent with the full authority of Paul. Paul passed on authority as a rule of faith - the authority Jesus gave to Paul did not die with Paul, Paul passed it on and expected his successors to do the same. Paul expected Christians to obey these men who received this authority.
2 Timothy 1:13-14 Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. 14 Guard the truth which has been entrusted to you, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us,
2 Timothy 2:2 The things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, entrust these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
Timothy is to ordain others as he himself has been ordained. From Paul, to Timothy, to faithful men, to others also - four generations of apostolic succession in one passage of Scripture.
Titus 1:5-7 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you-- 6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. 7 For a bishop, as God’s steward, must be above reproach (blameless). He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain,
Titus is appointing or ordaining bishops. He has been given authority and is likewise ordaining others with the same authority. This includes the authority to teach, which is the mission of the church.
I Timothy 1:3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine,
I Timothy 4:11-13 Command and teach these things. 12 Let no one despise you for your youth, but set the believers an example in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. 13 Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation(preaching), to teaching.
Timothy and Titus are told to command and teach, to charge others NOT to teach different doctrine, appoint elders, and guard the deposit of faith (guard the truth) and pass it on to others. How was authority passed on from the apostles to their successors?
2 Timothy 1:6 For this reason I remind you to fan into flame the gift of God, which is in you through the laying on of my hands
I Timothy 4:14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophecy when the council of elders laid their hands on you.
This authority from Paul to the elders or Bishops was passed on by a ceremonial laying on of hands. That’s exactly what is done and has been done for the last 2000 years. Apostles, as Fathers, pass on their teaching and their teaching authority that they received from Christ. It is only through Christ’s authority that the successors have authority. That’s the only way Timothy had any authority to command, rebuke and teach. Paul did NOT tell Timothy to let everyone read the Bible for themselves. He also gave Timothy the authority to lay on hands - to ordain others.
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Pixie_Dust
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Yes, we do. There’s the nigh unto 2000 year old, Apostolic definition “the life of God in our souls” and the Protestant definition, which changes depending on which variety of Protestant you ask.Of course, but I posted it as a reaction of the posting of the Lutheran Joint Declaration. You guys started it first.
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Pixie_Dust
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Um, Paul is sending Timothy out to preach the gospel that he learned from Paul. He is telling those who read his letter that they should listen to and obey Timothy just as they listened to and obeyed him. If you read the commentary, you’d have already known that.These are all great Scriptures (I ignored the commentaries) but what do they have to do with the gospel proclamation? I’m glad you guys are willing to play along.
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Reformed
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That’s a good point. But there is nothing in there to tell us which gospel version that Paul instructed Timothy to proclaim. I guess that is assumed because Timothy read the letters of Romans and Galatians.Um, Paul is sending Timothy out to preach the gospel that he learned from Paul. He is telling those who read his letter that they should listen to and obey Timothy just as they listened to and obeyed him. If you read the commentary, you’d have already known that.
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cfrancis
Guest
So, we have Paul stating we are justified by God’s grace (Rom 3:24, Tit 3:7), justified by Christ’s blood (Rom 5:9), justified by faith (Rom 3:28, 5:1, Gal 2:16, 3:24), but not justified by works of the Law (Rom 3:20, 3:28, Gal 2:16).
All in accordance with Catholic teaching.
All in accordance with Catholic teaching.
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cfrancis
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Uh, Paul could know and preach nothing but Christ, and Him crucified (1 Cor 1:23, 2:2) - so there is no other gospel than that preached by Jesus Christ.That’s a good point. But there is nothing in there to tell us which gospel version that Paul instructed Timothy to proclaim. I guess that is assumed because Timothy read the letters of Romans and Galatians.
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Reformed
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Hey, maybe we believe the same things after-all!
Now, please show me how the 7 Catholic sacraments are used by Paul for our justification before God.
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Pixie_Dust
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No, Timothy learned the Gospel directly from the mouth of Paul. He lived in Ephesus (I Timothy 1:3), so if he read anything of Paul’s it would have been his letter to the Ephesians.That’s a good point. But there is nothing in there to tell us which gospel version that Paul instructed Timothy to proclaim. I guess that is assumed because Timothy read the letters of Romans and Galatians.
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Reformed
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Oh how close we are, but still far apart.
1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
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cfrancis
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Not until you address the many posts we’ve provided showing Paul does not teach justification by faith alone!Hey, maybe we believe the same things after-all!
Now, please show me how the 7 Catholic sacraments are used by Paul for our justification before God.
Oh yeah - I forgot to add to my list in this post:
Paul stating we are justified by our works (Rom 2:5-11)!
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Reformed
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Sure, that’s probably true. Let’s explore the Ephesians letter. Next to Romans and Galatians, the book of Ephesians is very doctrinal in regards to the gospel of God’s grace.
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cfrancis
Guest
It is you who are far out!
I repeat:
Paul could know and preach nothing but Christ, and Him crucified (1 Cor 1:23, 2:2) - so there is no other gospel than that preached by Jesus Christ.
Which is exactly what Paul says in 1 Cor 1:17!
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cfrancis
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Wow - yet another change, as you’re unable to maintain your position in the light of Scripture!Sure, that’s probably true. Let’s explore the Ephesians letter. Next to Romans and Galatians, the book of Ephesians is very doctrinal in regards to the gospel of God’s grace.
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Reformed
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It’s not by faith alone. It’s by grace alone or by the blood of Christ alone through the instrument of faith alone. If you are preaching grace through faith, please explain the (+) portion of it in regards to our justification before God. Are you sure the CC does not teach personal merit in salvation?
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Reformed
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I thought Paul wrote the book of Ephesians? Paul wrote 13 or 14 letters. James wrote only one letter and one chapter that appears to be supportive in your conclusion. However, when you understand the truth of biblical justification, you will understand the Apostle James.
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cfrancis
Guest
Interesting none of those terms are found in Scripture; are you using an extra-Biblical source?
Oh wait, my mistake…“faith alone” is found in Scripture, coupled with the words “not by.”
You mean like Paul does in Rom 2? Or Christ in Mt 25? Or James in in James 2? They explain it veyr well, and I’m surprised yo don’t know that, as you present yourself to be knowledgable of Scripture.
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cfrancis
Guest
I was speaking of your inability to counter what’s been presented of Paul’s teaching in Romans re: justification and the harmony between Paul’s teaching and Catholic teaching. You still have not addressed those posts, instead choosing to cede your position and move on to another epistle.
Eph 2 teaches the Catholic position of justification by God’s grace. No problem there!
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