I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes

[cfrancis]

LOL!!! Sorry, but it must be very difficult to be Roman Catholic Christian. So, what happens when we dont’ do all things that God has commanded us to do? All Christians struggle in this life and never reach perfect obedience. You guys really don’t understand about entering the sabbath rest found in Christ alone do you?

YIKES Another non-answer.
So you’re asking us what happens when we do not do God’s will, when we do not those works God has ordained for us (Eph 2:10)?
Basically, you’re asking what happens when we sin.

EDIT: your habit of editing your posts is annoying! You cite Rom 8 - but you started one verse too late (though we understand why):
Rom 8:17
17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.
Seems Paul’s not on board your “alone” train…

 

[Reformed]

There is a problem when you seperate the epistles of Paul from the rest of scripture. You speak of Paul as if he preached a different gospel than the rest of the NT writers. The truth is that Paul’s writings are to be read in context of the whole of the NT and further in the context of the whole of the scriptures. And further, why would you focus on the word ‘gospel’? You can not understand what Paul means by the term by ignoring the passages from Paul which don’t mention the word.

The word gospel means good news. The good news of Paul is Christ crucified and risen. The good news of Paul is that Christ has conquered death because if He hasn’t then you are still in your sins and you will still die. Read 1Corinthians15 for this. Christ through His death has conquered death and given Grace to the world that the world might be saved. And how is this? We are baptized into Christ’s death through the sacrament of baptism and we proclaim it unto our death through the reception of the Eucharist[Romans6 and 1Cor.11]. We are integrated into the body of Christ, the Church through the reception of the Eucharist [1Cor.11]. And so those who are “in Christ” have no fear of death(Remember that the body of Christ is the Church) because they live according to the Graces which Christ has given.

The plan was to start another thread which would include the other 1/2 of the New Testament. Thereafter, the plan was to use the OT as light to understand the NT… However, that’s where revealation stops…with the Word of God (Holy Scirptures).

You guys sure don’t like playing the sola scriptura game, do you?

 

[Pixie_Dust]

The plan was to start another thread which would include the other 1/2 of the New Testament. Thereafter, the plan was to use the OT as light to understand the NT… However, that’s where revealation stops…with the Word of God (Holy Scirptures).

The Word of God is Jesus Christ, not a book. John 1:1.

You guys sure don’t like playing the sola scriptura game, do you?

Well, maybe if it was Biblical it would be more fun.

 

[cfrancis]

You guys sure don’t like playing the sola scriptura game, do you?

It appears you have us playing Sola Reformed’s Opinion, which is, as you state, not a likable game.

Care to participate in the discussion by supporting your position?

We’re still waiting for you defense of Paul and James speaking of different justifications!

 

[jimmy]

The plan was to start another thread which would include the other 1/2 of the New Testament. Thereafter, the plan was to use the OT as light to understand the NT… However, that’s where revealation stops…with the Word of God (Holy Scirptures).

Actually, no you are quite wrong. Scripture isn’t even revelation itself. It is a vehicle of revelation. Christ Jesus is the ultimate revelation of God and that is where it stops. Holy Scripture is inspired and God-breathed but it is not revelation in itself. But revelation really has never stoped in the Church. We continue to learn daily through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Daily we become transformed and turned to the Lord more and more and we recieve further illumination of God in the process. We are to become entrenched in scripture, to particpate in the breaking of the bread (Eucharist) and “pray ceaselessly” as Paul tells us [Acts2] [1Thes.5]. As the Apostles recieved the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, we recieve the Holy Spirit in Baptism and God enlightens our hearts to Himself and His Son, the Word made flesh. Who was in the form of God [Phil.2;1-11] but became man that we might be saved. Through the reception of the Eucharist we are incorporated into the body of Christ and brought closer to God(but you must also remember that you must recieve it properly with a pure heart otherwise it is unto your condemnation as Paul says)[1Cor.10 and 1Cor.11]. And through this closeness to God we become a fortress, a strong city which is impenitrable and which satan can never overthrow.

And by the way, if you haven’t noticed, I am playing your game by giving you references to the scriptures. I might not give the full quote but I give you the reference so that you can go look it up.

 

[Church_Militant]

Run from the light of the Scriptures with all of your extra-biblical sources… Do you think the Protestant Reformation occured for non-essential reasons? The Reformation occured because of the light of the gospel.

2 Corinthians 4

The Light of the Gospel

Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.No one’s running anywhere except you. The simple fact is that you have embraced a known heresy in this thread and willfully reject the fact that your message (as stated in this thread) was refuted and condemned in the 2nd century.

At the end of July, 144 CE

, a hearing took place before the clergy of the Christian congregations in Rome. Marcion, the son of the bishop of Sinope (a sea-port of Pontus along the Black Sea) who had become a wealthy ship-owner, stood before the presbyters to expound his teachings in order to win others to his point of view. For some years he had been a member of one of the Roman churches, and had proved the sincerity of his faith by making relatively large contributions. No doubt he was a respected member of the Christian community.

But what he now expounded to the presbyters was so monstrous that they were utterly shocked! The hearing ended in a harsh rejection of Marcion’s views; he was formally excommunicated and his largesse of money was returned. From this time forward Marcion went his own way, energetically propagating a strange kind of Christianity that quickly took root throughout large sections of the Roman Empire and by the end of the 2nd century had become a serious threat to the mainstream Christian Church. In each city of any importance the Marcionites set up their church to defy the Christian one. Although in definite decline in the West from the middle of the 3rd to the 4th centuries, the movement proved more durable in the East, where, after remarkably overcoming the 3rd-century Roman persecutions of the emperors Valerian and Diocletian, it continued to flourish until as late as the 10th century, especially in Syrian culture.(See the link above…)

 

[Reformed]

Actually, no you are quite wrong. Scripture isn’t even revelation itself. It is a vehicle of revelation. Christ Jesus is the ultimate revelation of God and that is where it stops. Holy Scripture is inspired and God-breathed but it is not revelation in itself. But revelation really has never stoped in the Church. We continue to learn daily through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Daily we become transformed and turned to the Lord more and more and we recieve further illumination of God in the process. We are to become entrenched in scripture, to particpate in the breaking of the bread and “pray ceaselessly” as Paul tells us. As the Apostles recieved the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, we recieve the Holy Spirit in Baptism and God enlightens our hearts to Himself and His Son, the Word made flesh. Who was in the form of God [Phil.2;1-11] but became man that we might be saved. Through the reception of the Eucharist we are incorporated into the body of Christ and brought closer to God(but you must also remember that you must recieve it properly with a pure heart otherwise it is unto your condemnation as Paul says)[1Cor.10 and 1Cor.11]. And through this closeness to God we become a fortress, a strong city which is impenitrable and which satan can never overthrow.

And by the way, if you haven’t noticed, I am playing your game by giving you references to the scriptures. I might not give the full quote but I give you the reference so that you can go look it up.

http://www.lovesanimals.com/images/animals/monkey/funny_monkey.jpg

Just kidding my friend. I’m glad you decided to join us. Let’s try to focus on justification according to Paul since it is the heart of the gospel of God’s grace.

 

[cfrancis]

Let’s try to focus on justification according to Paul since it is the heart of the gospel of God’s grace.

We have been focusing on this topic, and we’ve consistently presented Paul’s teachings and their harmony with Catholic teaching. What we’ve failed to get from you, in 20+ pages, is a defense of your position vis-a-vis our posts…oh, and you still haven’t defended your unfounded conclusion that Paul and James are speaking about different justifications (even though they use the same word).

 

[Reformed]

We have been focusing on this topic, and we’ve consistently presented Paul’s teachings and their harmony with Catholic teaching. What we’ve failed to get from you, in 20+ pages, is a defense of your position vis-a-vis our posts…oh, and you still haven’t defended your unfounded conclusion that Paul and James are speaking about different justifications (even though they use the same word).

Why don’t you start a justification thread and start comparing how Paul and James uses justification? I’ll throw in an image for you too for the fun of it.



The pets of the original Christians in America. America was built upon Biblical Christianity (Calvinisim) and not Roman Catholicism.

 

[Church_Militant]

Just as Jesus says in Jn 3:3-5, the jailer was born from above when he was batpized with water - unless you can produce Scripture that tells us the jailer was born again some other way.

And hearing the gospel the jailer and his family believed all Jesus Christ said and did; which is why the jailer and his household were baptized to be born again.

LOL… you guys like to twist the scriptures…sorry but that’s too funny. We are all dependent on the Holy Spirit to understand spiritual truth. Now try to reconcile your post with Romans chapter 3 and 4 as well as the OP. We can discuss John chapter 3 and all of the writings of John on another thread.

No, we will not. There is no purpose to “playing by your rules” of an old heresy long ago refuted. Catholics have no problems with the Word of God…we just have problems with your expressed misinterpretation of them that does not agree with the rest of the New Testament nor the teachings of the early church. You remind me very much of your heretical spiritual ancestor Martin Luther who said of teh Book of Esther, " I am so great an enemy to the second book of the Maccabees, and to Esther, that I wish they had not come to us at all, for they have too many heathen unnaturalities. The Jews much more esteemed the book of Esther than any of the prophets; though they were forbidden to read it before they had attained the age of thirty, by reason of the mystic matters it contains."

1 Corinthians 1:17

For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power

Look here! You negate the clear teachings of the Gospel by trying to get us to take this scripture (pulled out of context) in your attempt to assert that Paul did not consider baptism essential to salvation, which is not true.
Baptism~ Necessary or Not?

 

[Reformed]

The gospel according to the Apostle Paul:

monergism.com/directory/search.php?action=search_links_simple&search_kind=and&phrase=gospel

 

[jimmy]

Account Suspended

Just kidding my friend. I’m glad you decided to join us. Let’s try to focus on justification according to Paul since it is the heart of the gospel of God’s grace.

I don’t think you can seperate justification from the rest. It is a part of the whole. Just like Paul’s epistles are one part of the canon of scripture, justification is one aspect of the faith.

But since you mentioned justification as Paul said we are justified by Grace(which is nothing but the Holy Spirit) through faith that we might do the works of God[Ephesians2;8-10]. As you can see, we are justified in order that we might do the works of God. And if we do these works of God then we will be justified, but if we don’t then we will be condemned[Rom.2]. The Grace of God is continually acting in us to transform our hearts. This Grace fosters the love of God without which we are nothing but a sounding gong even though we have faith [1Cor.13].

But you can not be justified if you are not in Christ and consequently you must have the rest of what I said in the other posts. You must be incorporated in the body of Christ through His gifts.

 

[jimmy]

1 Corinthians 1:17

For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power

I have seen this quote in several posts so I have to respond to it. I think you are misinterpreting this quote here. The last portion of the quote does not refer to the first part of the sentence but to the middle part which refers to the words of eloquent wisdom. Here is another translation of the verse.

17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.[NIV]

The King James Version has a similar translation as this one.
17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
So it is not baptism which would empty the cross of its power but the eloquent words. Baptism actually recieves its power from the cross. As Paul says in Romans6 we are baptized into His death. And therefore we are not to sin anymore because we are dead to sin.

 

[Reformed]

I don’t think you can seperate justification from the rest. It is a part of the whole. Just like Paul’s epistles are one part of the canon of scripture, justification is one aspect of the faith.

But since you mentioned justification as Paul said we are justified by Grace(which is nothing but the Holy Spirit) through faith that we might do the works of God[Ephesians2;8-10]. As you can see, we are justified in order that we might do the works of God. And if we do these works of God then we will be justified, but if we don’t then we will be condemned[Rom.2]. The Grace of God is continually acting in us to transform our hearts. This Grace fosters the love of God without which we are nothing but a sounding gong even though we have faith [1Cor.13].

But you can not be justified if you are not in Christ and consequently you must have the rest of what I said in the other posts. You must be incorporated in the body of Christ through His gifts.

A great way to end the day.

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [9] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?

Rom 8

 

[jimmy]

Why don’t you start a justification thread and start comparing how Paul and James uses justification? I’ll throw in an image for you too for the fun of it.

http://www.harlanjacobsen.com/graphics/funny-dog-cat.gif

The pets of the original Christians in America. America was built upon Biblical Christianity (Calvinisim) and not Roman Catholicism.

I would actually equate the Catholic Church with biblical Christianity rather than Calvinism.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Actually, no you are quite wrong. Scripture isn’t even revelation itself. It is a vehicle of revelation. Christ Jesus is the ultimate revelation of God and that is where it stops. Holy Scripture is inspired and God-breathed but it is not revelation in itself. But revelation really has never stoped in the Church. We continue to learn daily through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Daily we become transformed and turned to the Lord more and more and we recieve further illumination of God in the process. We are to become entrenched in scripture, to particpate in the breaking of the bread (Eucharist) and “pray ceaselessly” as Paul tells us [Acts2] [1Thes.5]. As the Apostles recieved the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, we recieve the Holy Spirit in Baptism and God enlightens our hearts to Himself and His Son, the Word made flesh. Who was in the form of God [Phil.2;1-11] but became man that we might be saved. Through the reception of the Eucharist we are incorporated into the body of Christ and brought closer to God(but you must also remember that you must recieve it properly with a pure heart otherwise it is unto your condemnation as Paul says)[1Cor.10 and 1Cor.11]. And through this closeness to God we become a fortress, a strong city which is impenitrable and which satan can never overthrow.

And by the way, if you haven’t noticed, I am playing your game by giving you references to the scriptures. I might not give the full quote but I give you the reference so that you can go look it up.

Jimmy, I’m borrowing some of this post for another thread in Apologetics. You’ll get full credit for it. Good stuff!

 

[Reformed]

I would actually equate the Catholic Church with biblical Christianity rather than Calvinism.

Fortunately the United States is rooted in Biblical Christianity (Calvinism). Check out the countries dominated by Roman Catholicism and you will see a dark contrast with spiritual and economic oppression. Start with Mexico, to Central America, to South America…and then work your way around the globe and the history books. Here’s some help:

aneki.com/roman_catholic_countries.html

Let’s please continue tommorow.

 

[jimmy]

A great way to end the day.

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [9] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?

Rom 8

We can just offer quotes against eachother without trying to reconcile them but then we would sound like Augustine’s opponent Caelestius. Rather than trying to interpret what I have said you have simply cut and pasted a passage from Romans 9 similar to what Augustine accuses Caelestius of - namely trying to pit scripture against itself.

Now to answer your quote. Your quote does not indicate who is predestined. Who is to say that not all men are predestinated? And from those who are predestined because God foreknew all. This is supported by the fact that Christ died for all as 1Tim.2 says. So Christ predestinated all to be conformed to Christ Jesus. And from these who are predestinated and foreknown God will call those sinners who seek Him(as Christ said in Matt.7, those who seek will find). And further He will justify them because they grow in the love which He fosters in their hearts through His Holy Spirit.

 

[Publisher]

Actually, no you are quite wrong. Scripture isn’t even revelation itself. It is a vehicle of revelation. Christ Jesus is the ultimate revelation of God and that is where it stops. Holy Scripture is inspired and God-breathed but it is not revelation in itself. But revelation really has never stoped in the Church. We continue to learn daily through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Daily we become transformed and turned to the Lord more and more and we recieve further illumination of God in the process. We are to become entrenched in scripture,…

This is a good explanation of how Friends look at scripture as well…again…we have something in common…

Of course we view things much differently from the phrase “We are to become entrenched in scripture…”…but on this point we agree and find unity.

 

[jimmy]

Fortunately the United States is rooted in Biblical Christianity (Calvinism). Check out the countries dominated by Roman Catholicism and you will see a dark contrast with spiritual and economic oppression. Start with Mexico, to Central America, to South America…and then work your way around the globe and the history books. Here’s some help:

aneki.com/roman_catholic_countries.html

Let’s please continue tommorow.

The atheism in America which supports abortion and even infanticide in the case of Barack Obama is the result of protestantism. Whether Europe is destitute of all morals is irrelevant because so is the US. The US was big into slavery. Was that a good thing? Maybe you can find some good Christians in America, but the same can be found in Europe and every Catholic country. And to put the cherry on top the country with the greatest moral code is Vatican city, which is its own country.