I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes

[Pixie_Dust]

Who mentioned Sola Fide on this thread?

A certain poster named “believers” seems to be pretty adamant that it’s in his Bible as a true teaching. Unfortunately, the only time I’ve ever found the words “faith alone” in my Bible is in James Ch 2, where he says we’re NOT saved by faith alone!

Let’s be disciplined and stay with the writings of Paul before we bring in terms that will side-track the thread. Let’s all go in the direction the Apostle Paul goes, whatever direction the Apostle takes us. If Paul takes me to Rome, Rome is where I will go.

I’m sure St Paul would rather you followed Jesus Christ… But if you’re wondering what St Paul had to say about the Church that Christ founded:

The early Christians had the apostles and those appointed by the apostles. Not just in interpreting Scriptures, but living out their faith daily. Do such men exist today? Where do we find them?

I Corinthians 12:28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

I Timothy 3:15 but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support (bullwark) of the truth.

Ephesians 1:22-23 And he (God the Father) put all things beneath his (Jesus) feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way.
Colossians 1:18, 24 18 He is the head of the body, the church.
24 He is the head of the body, the church.

How many bodies are there? ONE BODY OF CHRIST.

Ephesians 2:15-16 abolishing the law with its commandments and legal claims, that he might create in himself one new person in place of the two, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile both with God, in one body, through the cross, putting that enmity to death by it.
Ephesians 4:4 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call;

Since the church IS the body of Christ, we must conclude that there is ONE Church, and true doctrine is very important in the Church Christ founded, no such thing as essentials and non-essentials here.

1 Timothy 1:3 I repeat the request I made of you when I was on my way to Macedonia, that you stay in Ephesus to instruct certain people not to teach false doctrines
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons
Ephesians 4:14 so that we may no longer be infants, tossed by waves and swept along by every wind of doctrine arising from human trickery, from their cunning in the interests of deceitful scheming.
Titus 1:9 holding fast to the true message as taught so that he will be able both to exhort with sound doctrine and to refute opponents.

This one Church is not divided into differing and contradictory doctrines:

I Corinthians 1:10 I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose.
Philippians 1:27 Only, conduct yourselves in a way worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that, whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear news of you, that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind struggling together for the faith of the gospel,

 

[ryanoneil]

Thank you! This is what I was hoping for. Should we include the book of Hebrews as written by Paul? I’m okay either way.

Yes. So am I.

Romans 2:7-10 seems to be a very popular bible passages by Roman Catholics, but it is taken out of context of the rest of the Epistle of Romans.

Are you sure?

When Paul systematically reveals the gospel, he first brings the bad news to us in Romans chapter 1 and chapter 2. The gospel or good news is explained in Romans 3 on.

I see what you are saying, but it’s not that cut and dry. The promise of eternal life in Rom 2:7 is good news (for example).

Do you see how you seem to use Rom 2:7-10 out of context from the rest of the theme of the Epistle to hold on to the Roman Catholic gospel?

Not really. Maybe you could explain what you mean.

Why then do you judge your brother? Or you, why do you look down on your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bend before me, and every tongue shall give praise to God.” So (then) each of us shall give an account of himself (to God). (Rom 14:10-12)

Chapter 14 seems to be following the same theme as Rom 2:7-10 ,and the verses before it:

Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance? By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works (Rom 2:3-6)

 

[Reformed]

Yeah… but you are only saved by the blood THROUGH FAITH ALONE. When you completely have faith that Jesus’ blood pays for your sin and receive this payment. This atonement (Jesus) is ONLY received THROUGH FAITH ALONE.

I think what we (believers and I) are saying here is covered in the doctrine of justification found in Romans chapter 3 and chapter 4. It is also covered in Galatians too. Focus on the heart of the gospel which is how God declares us righteous in His sight according to Paul.

 

[Reformed]

Yes. So am I.

Are you sure?

I see what you are saying, but it’s not that cut and dry. The promise of eternal life in Rom 2:7 is good news (for example).

Not really. Maybe you could explain what you mean.

Why then do you judge your brother? Or you, why do you look down on your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written: “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bend before me, and every tongue shall give praise to God.” So (then) each of us shall give an account of himself (to God). (Rom 14:10-12)

Chapter 14 seems to be following the same theme as Rom 2:7-10 ,and the verses before it:

Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance? By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works (Rom 2:3-6)

I’m sorry for the short answer but I am buried with work. If Romans 2 is the true gospel, why does the Epistle continue for a long time. I see Romans 1 and 2 bringing us the bad news revealed in Romans 3 that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. All are without excuse. The all includes Mary but of course not Jesus who is God.

 

[adstrinity]

I am simply asking you to post the gospel of God according to the Apostle Paul. I really think you cannot do it. Focus on the word “gospel”.

drbo.org/book/52.htm
drbo.org/book/53.htm
drbo.org/book/54.htm
drbo.org/book/55.htm
drbo.org/book/56.htm
drbo.org/book/57.htm
drbo.org/book/58.htm
drbo.org/book/59.htm
drbo.org/book/60.htm
drbo.org/book/61.htm
drbo.org/book/62.htm
drbo.org/book/63.htm
drbo.org/book/64.htm
drbo.org/book/65.htm

There you go!

Yeah… but you are only saved by the blood THROUGH FAITH ALONE. When you completely have faith that Jesus’ blood pays for your sin and receive this payment. This atonement (Jesus) is ONLY received THROUGH FAITH ALONE.

I know I am saved by His Blood; this is why I go to confession before I drink His Blood at every Mass. I have faith that God hears my confession when he absolves me through the words of the priest. By the Grace of God go I.

 

[Reformed]

A certain poster named “believers” seems to be pretty adamant that it’s in his Bible as a true teaching. Unfortunately, the only time I’ve ever found the words “faith alone” in my Bible is in James Ch 2, where he says we’re NOT saved by faith alone!

I’m sure St Paul would rather you followed Jesus Christ… But if you’re wondering what St Paul had to say about the Church that Christ founded:

The early Christians had the apostles and those appointed by the apostles. Not just in interpreting Scriptures, but living out their faith daily. Do such men exist today? Where do we find them?

I Corinthians 12:28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

I Timothy 3:15 but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support (bullwark) of the truth.

Ephesians 1:22-23 And he (God the Father) put all things beneath his (Jesus) feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way.
Colossians 1:18, 24 18 He is the head of the body, the church.
24 He is the head of the body, the church.

How many bodies are there? ONE BODY OF CHRIST.

Ephesians 2:15-16 abolishing the law with its commandments and legal claims, that he might create in himself one new person in place of the two, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile both with God, in one body, through the cross, putting that enmity to death by it.
Ephesians 4:4 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call;

Since the church IS the body of Christ, we must conclude that there is ONE Church, and true doctrine is very important in the Church Christ founded, no such thing as essentials and non-essentials here.

1 Timothy 1:3 I repeat the request I made of you when I was on my way to Macedonia, that you stay in Ephesus to instruct certain people not to teach false doctrines
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons
Ephesians 4:14 so that we may no longer be infants, tossed by waves and swept along by every wind of doctrine arising from human trickery, from their cunning in the interests of deceitful scheming.
Titus 1:9 holding fast to the true message as taught so that he will be able both to exhort with sound doctrine and to refute opponents.

This one Church is not divided into differing and contradictory doctrines:

I Corinthians 1:10 I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose.
Philippians 1:27 Only, conduct yourselves in a way worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that, whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear news of you, that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind struggling together for the faith of the gospel,

Thanks for the quotes, but the Apostle Paul speaks of many things as you have posted. Let’s stay within the gospel message of Paul to stay on course here. If we drift to other topics, we will all miss what caused the Protestant Reformation (IMO).

 

[Usagi]

Reformed,

Well, I said I wasn’t going to, but I just went and read the entire book of Romans and most of First Corinthians. I’ll try to read the other letters later.

Here’s what I’m getting from Romans:

1. Adam’s sin brought death into the world. (This actually comes along a little later in the letter, but it’s chronologically first.)
2. Later humans turned away from God to worship idols, and so He gave them over to their lower desires, to demonstrate that they could achieve nothing without Him.
3. Even the Jews, who were given God’s Law and joined to him in covenant, came to the same end. Since without God’s help no one could keep the whole Law, the Law served more as a testament to human sin than an actual way to God.
4. Neither were the Gentiles free from guilt, for though they were not held guilty for some sins because they lacked the Mosaic Law, still they disobeyed the law of God written on their hearts.
5. Thus, neither Jews with the Law nor Gentiles without it could stand righteous before God by their own power. God, of course, had known this all along.
6. At the appropriate time, God sent Christ as a sacrifice for sin. His obedience cancelled Adam’s disobedience. By faith in Him, both Jews and Gentiles could achieve God’s favor – not because of any trait or action of theirs, but by His gift.
7. Just as in former times God had raised up the Jews as an example to the Gentiles, now He was calling a majority of Gentile Christians as an example to those who took pride in Jewishness rather than in their relationship with God. But once the full number have been called to salvation among the Gentiles, the Jews too will turn to the gospel of grace.
8. Though they would initially be “credited as righteous” without having done anything, the change in these believers would be no mere outward declaration, but an indwelling of Christ. Their old sinful selves would die with Christ and they would be raised with Him to a new mode of life – essentially, Christ would be living through them.
9. Because of this transformation, Paul repeatedly calls on the believers in Rome to turn away from sin and walk instead in the ways of God – not to earn their salvation thereby, of course, but to be the sorts of people God would have them be.
10. Paul assures the believers that no hardship of this life – no power either natural or supernatural – can sever their relationship with God. Yet he also warns that a return to disobedience can lead to being “cut off” or “destroyed” by God.

Now, obviously I’m paraphrasing and summarizing rather than pasting in the entire book of Romans, but I don’t see anything here that current Catholic teaching would not fully embrace. Nor would I expect to. Please correct me if you believe I have missed or misread anything.

Usagi

 

[ryanoneil]

That’s good my friend. You are a grounded RC Christian! Let’s work in your bible passage in context with the entire book of Romans and see if it means what you are trying to make it mean.

Sure, that is a good idea. Let’s not ignore the context of Romans as it relates to the rest of the Bible though. The gospel message does not contradict itself. If Paul’s words appear contradictory, that is an indication that we are not understanding him correctly.

With that said, I don’t mind emphasizing Paul as much as possible.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Thanks for the quotes, but the Apostle Paul speaks of many things as you have posted. Let’s stay within the gospel message of Paul to stay on course here. If we drift to other topics, we will all miss what caused the Protestant Reformation (IMO).

But don’t you see, part of the message that Paul preached was that when a Church preached the Gospel, that they all preached the same message! As I pointed out in my earlier post, Paul says a lot about God’s grace, and how God works through us to be obedient, fruit-bearing followers of Christ. Catholics will whole-heartedly affirm Sola Gratia. Without the grace of God we can do nothing, not even have faith. Reform Came Before the Reformation.

As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13). (from Assurance of Salvation)

 

[SIA]

Please look at the opening post again. We are discussing the gospel of God’s grace according to Paul. Heck, the Apostle Paul is credited in writing about half of the New Testament. I did a similar thread on an all religious forum with LDS Christians. They never once tried to support the Mormon gospel with the writing of the Apostle Paul. The thread was very very popular. I don’t think the official Roman Catholic gospel can be supported by the writings of the Apostle Paul. Remember, Paul wrote about half of the books of the New Testament depending on your position in Hebrews. Just try it if you dare? I would say the writings of Paul were foundational for the Protestant Reformation.

1 Corinthians 1:17

For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

I totally agree. In reading the writings of Paul in the NT, it bares no resemblance to Catholicism.

 

[Reformed]

Reformed,

Well, I said I wasn’t going to, but I just went and read the entire book of Romans and most of First Corinthians. I’ll try to read the other letters later.

Here’s what I’m getting from Romans:

1. Adam’s sin brought death into the world. (This actually comes along a little later in the letter, but it’s chronologically first.)
2. Later humans turned away from God to worship idols, and so He gave them over to their lower desires, to demonstrate that they could achieve nothing without Him.
3. Even the Jews, who were given God’s Law and joined to him in covenant, came to the same end. Since without God’s help no one could keep the whole Law, the Law served more as a testament to human sin than an actual way to God.
4. Neither were the Gentiles free from guilt, for though they were not held guilty for some sins because they lacked the Mosaic Law, still they disobeyed the law of God written on their hearts.
5. Thus, neither Jews with the Law nor Gentiles without it could stand righteous before God by their own power. God, of course, had known this all along.
6. At the appropriate time, God sent Christ as a sacrifice for sin. His obedience cancelled Adam’s disobedience. By faith in Him, both Jews and Gentiles could achieve God’s favor – not because of any trait or action of theirs, but by His gift.
7. Just as in former times God had raised up the Jews as an example to the Gentiles, now He was calling a majority of Gentile Christians as an example to those who took pride in Jewishness rather than in their relationship with God. But once the full number have been called to salvation among the Gentiles, the Jews too will turn to the gospel of grace.
8. Though they would initially be “credited as righteous” without having done anything, the change in these believers would be no mere outward declaration, but an indwelling of Christ. Their old sinful selves would die with Christ and they would be raised with Him to a new mode of life – essentially, Christ would be living through them.
9. Because of this transformation, Paul repeatedly calls on the believers in Rome to turn away from sin and walk instead in the ways of God – not to earn their salvation thereby, of course, but to be the sorts of people God would have them be.
10. Paul assures the believers that no hardship of this life – no power either natural or supernatural – can sever their relationship with God. Yet he also warns that a return to disobedience can lead to being “cut off” or “destroyed” by God.

Now, obviously I’m paraphrasing and summarizing rather than pasting in the entire book of Romans, but I don’t see anything here that current Catholic teaching would not fully embrace. Nor would I expect to. Please correct me if you believe I have missed or misread anything.

Usagi

That was excellent!!! I really appreciate all of your effort. Do you mind commenting on the doctrine of justification in Romans chapter 3 and chapter 4? I think the heart of the gospel of God’s grace proclaimed by Paul is found in Romans chapter 3 and 4. As you may know, this is what divides us. We can also include the book of Galatians to explore Paul’s teaching on justification. Romans 5 and federal headship is also important to understand Paul too in regards to the verdict of not guilty based on the righteousness provided by God (Rom 10). Maybe we are closer than I think… and again maybe not?

 

[Reformed]

A certain poster named “believers” seems to be pretty adamant that it’s in his Bible as a true teaching. Unfortunately, the only time I’ve ever found the words “faith alone” in my Bible is in James Ch 2, where he says we’re NOT saved by faith alone!

I’m sure St Paul would rather you followed Jesus Christ… But if you’re wondering what St Paul had to say about the Church that Christ founded:

The early Christians had the apostles and those appointed by the apostles. Not just in interpreting Scriptures, but living out their faith daily. Do such men exist today? Where do we find them?

I Corinthians 12:28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

I Timothy 3:15 but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support (bullwark) of the truth.

Ephesians 1:22-23 And he (God the Father) put all things beneath his (Jesus) feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is his body, the fullness of the one who fills all things in every way.
Colossians 1:18, 24 18 He is the head of the body, the church.
24 He is the head of the body, the church.

How many bodies are there? ONE BODY OF CHRIST.

Ephesians 2:15-16 abolishing the law with its commandments and legal claims, that he might create in himself one new person in place of the two, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile both with God, in one body, through the cross, putting that enmity to death by it.
Ephesians 4:4 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call;

Since the church IS the body of Christ, we must conclude that there is ONE Church, and true doctrine is very important in the Church Christ founded, no such thing as essentials and non-essentials here.

1 Timothy 1:3 I repeat the request I made of you when I was on my way to Macedonia, that you stay in Ephesus to instruct certain people not to teach false doctrines
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will turn away from the faith by paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons
Ephesians 4:14 so that we may no longer be infants, tossed by waves and swept along by every wind of doctrine arising from human trickery, from their cunning in the interests of deceitful scheming.
Titus 1:9 holding fast to the true message as taught so that he will be able both to exhort with sound doctrine and to refute opponents.

This one Church is not divided into differing and contradictory doctrines:

I Corinthians 1:10 I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose.
Philippians 1:27 Only, conduct yourselves in a way worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that, whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear news of you, that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind struggling together for the faith of the gospel,

I think you already know that I believe that the 5 solas are truth from God. However, let’s stay within the writings of Paul instead of theological terms that will close the door for some of us. You are experiencing how Protestants function…so it should be fun for you.

 

[cfrancis]

Please consider Romans 5 in context of Romans 1 though 4 to see if you understand Romans 5 in a different light. Paul writes in a very systematic way in the book of Romans. The OP of Romans 1:16-17 is the thesis statement for the entire book of Romans.
Romans 1:16-17

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

Maybe we should consider what God is saving us from and from whom. Consider Romans 1:18 for an answer to that question. What is the bad news of Romans 1, 2, and 3 because we cannot really understand the gospel (good news) without understanding the bad news that Paul proclaims to us.

Ah, I’ve heard this before. OK.
Ch 1
5 through whom we have received grace and (I)apostleship to bring about **the obedience of faith **among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake,

The “obedience of faith” is Paul speaking against “faith alone”

v18-32
The transition is v17
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Paul points out the sins of those who know God yet do not do as He commands, and God’s punishment for such.
Paul tells us God is revealed to us in His creation.
Those who knew about God and His ordinances and still continued in sin, and those who ignored what could reveal God and continued in sin, are subject to punishment.

Ch2
Paul cautions the Christians in Rome about passing judgement on those about whom Paul just wrote when they themselves are continuing in sin.

Paul tells us what awaits those who continue in sin without repentance:
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the **Jew first and also of the Greek, **
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God.

This is key to understanding the rest of Romans. Paul has created a distinction he continued throughout the letter: Jew and Gentile. Throughout the letter, Paul is referring to these groups; so, when he says, “all,” for example, he is referring not to every single person, but to these collective groups (as in someone saying, “all the city turned out…”).

This distinction is solidified in v12-16.
This distinction is his transition to the issue that prompts his letter to the Romans: Judaizing.
v17-29 make this clear.

(more to come)

 

[cfrancis]

Ch 3
Paul begins to dismantle the Judaizers.
The theme of the two distinctions, Jew and Gentile, continues here:
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;

Now, one of the most quoted verses by non-Catholics against Catholics:
10 as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

So, is Paul saying no one is righteous? Interesting, given his words in 1:17:
“BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

In 1:17, Paul is citing Habakkuk 2:4:
4"Behold, as for the proud one,
His soul is not right within him;
But the righteous will live by his faith.

This shouldn’t surprise, as Paul was the greatest student of the greatest Rabbi, Gamaliel (still revered by orthodx Jews today).
So, in 3:10-12, Paul is citing Ps14:
1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God "
They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;
There is no one who does good.
2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there are any who understand,
Who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.

But Paul, being the great Jewish scholar he was, wouldn’t prooftext Ps 14, or cite it out of context, to a bunch of Jewish Christians, who also knew the OT. What is the rest of Ps 14:
4 Do all the workers of wickedness not know,
Who eat up **my people **as they eat bread,
And do not call upon the Lord?
5 There they are in great dread,
For God is with the righteous generation.
6 You would put to shame the counsel of the afflicted,
But the LORD is his refuge.
7 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion!
When the LORD restores His captive people,
Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad.

Paul continues in Rom:
13 “THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;
14 “WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;

Here he cites Ps 5. Here is how Ps 5 ends:
12 For it is You who blesses the righteous man, O LORD,
You surround him with favor as with a shield.

Paul then finishes this section, v15-18:
15 “THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”
18 “THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”
Here, Paul cites Is 59:7.

Paul has turned the tables on the Judaizers. In the OT, the Jews were God’s people, and those who opposed them were His foes (read all of Ps14, 5, and Is 59).
But now, with the new covenant of Jesus Christ, the Judaizers are God’s foes, and the Gentiles are the righteous. This distinction is made even worse, as Paul noted the Jews had God’s ordinances, and the Gentiles had only what God placed on their hearts.

Paul then states in 19-20, another distinction that will accompany the Jew/Gentile distinction:
19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

This is key to understanding the following chapters in Romans: because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight;

V21-31 should be very familiar to Catholics, as we’ve had pieces of them thrown at us!
21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Paul is repeating his statement that the Gentiles can now be righteous via Jesus Christ, who was witnessed by the Law and prophets.
And what is the distinction in “no distinction”?
As we’ve seen, it’s Jew/Gentile, so…
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
“all” is referring to Jew and Gentile
24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.
28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Here again in v27-28 Paul reiterates the Law does not save, and therefore the Judaizers are condemning themselves.
29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,
30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

All this through Ch 3 is very much in harmony with the Catholic Church!

 

[Reformed]

I totally agree. In reading the writings of Paul in the NT, it bares no resemblance to Catholicism.

I forgot if you are a Protestant Christian or a Roman Catholic Christian. I did a similar thread with LDS Christians, and we knew the Mormon gospel was dependent on the extra-bibilical revelation from their apostolic succession claim. Do you think we will reach the same conclusion here? I think it is a good exercise for Catholics to understand that the Roman Catholic gospel cannot be supported by the writings of the Apostle Paul. I would like to deal with the rest of the Bible after we exhaust the writings of Paul in regards to the gospel of God’s grace. I hope we are having fun together.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Footnote in the NAB on Romans 3:21-31:

[21-31]These verses provide a clear statement of Paul’s “gospel,” i.e., the principle of justification by faith in Christ. God has found a means of rescuing humanity from its desperate plight: Paul’s general term for this divine initiative is the righteousness of God (Romans 3:21). Divine mercy declares the guilty innocent and makes them so. God does this not as a result of the law but apart from it (Romans 3:21), and not because of any merit in human beings but through forgiveness of their sins (Romans 3:24), in virtue of the redemption wrought in Christ Jesus for all who believe (Romans 3:22, 24-25). God has manifested his righteousness in the coming of Jesus Christ, whose saving activity inaugurates a new era in human history.

And on Romans 4:3, primarily on what seems to be a contradiction of James 2:24:

James 2:24 appears to conflict with Paul’s statement. However, James combats the error of extremists who used the doctrine of justification through faith as a screen for moral self- determination. Paul discusses the subject of holiness in greater detail than does James and beginning with Romans 6 shows how justification through faith introduces one to the gift of a new life in Christ through the power of the holy Spirit.

 

[Reformed]

Footnote in the NAB on Romans 3:21-31:

And on Romans 4:3, primarily on what seems to be a contradiction of James 2:24:

Aha…not good. We cannot resort to commentaries on this thread. We all have commentary sources that are mutually exclusive of each other. Why bring in James chapter 2? Will an interpertation of James chapter 2 nullify half of the New Testament? The James chapter 2 argument is also used by LDS Christians and JW too to refute the writings of Paul.

 

[Pixie_Dust]

I think you already know that I believe that the 5 solas are truth from God.

I believe 3/5 of them are. The other two are inventions of men.

However, let’s stay within the writings of Paul instead of theological terms that will close the door for some of us. You are experiencing how Protestants function…so it should be fun for you.

Every passage I posted was from one or another of Paul’s epistles. I specifically chose those passages out of respect for you, the one limiting the discussion of Grace to Paul’s epistles.

I know how Protestants function. I was a die-hard, anti-Catholic Protestant for the first 33 years of my life. I only last year chose to follow Christ into His Church. I’m not some clueless, just go through the motions, Catholic-in-name-only because I was born into a Catholic family. I studied and prayed and read the Gospels. The BIBLE made me Catholic!

 

[Pixie_Dust]

Aha…not good. We cannot resort to commentaries on this thread. We all have commentary sources that are mutually exclusive of each other.

OK, first you ask me for commentary on my passages from Paul on grace, and now you reject it when I supply some? Make up your mind!

Why bring in James chapter 2?

Because at first glance an uneducated reader might say, “Ah-ha! The Bible does have contradictions therefore can’t be the Word of God!”

Will an interpertation of James chapter 2 nullify half of the New Testament?

No, because James and Paul both preached the same Gospel. I wouldn’t have brought James up at all had it not been in the footnotes for Romans 4. See, the Catholic Church views the Scriptures as a whole and not just “Paul says…” - to the exclusion of other Scriptures.

The James chapter 2 argument is also used by LDS and JW too to refute the writings of Paul.

LDS and JW are not Christian denominations. Both were founded by men in the last 200 years and bear no resemblance to historic Christianity.

 

[ryanoneil]

I’m sorry for the short answer but I am buried with work.

No, problem.

If Romans 2 is the true gospel, why does the Epistle continue for a long time.

I don’t know what you mean by the true gospel. Maybe we are using the same word but meaning different things.

Paul was long winded because he had to convince the Jewish-Christians in Rome that the Gentiles were included in the New Covenant. Because he wanted to use Rome as a hub for his gentile mission. He had to make a very thorough case, because many thought Jesus was exclusive savior to the Jews, and he didn’t want them run him out of town.

I see Romans 1 and 2 bringing us the bad news revealed in Romans 3 that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. All are without excuse.

Call it bad news if you will. But we have to know what the problem is before we can find the solution. Especially if we are talking about Jewish-Christians who thought they had priveledged status.

The all includes Mary but of course not Jesus who is God.

I was not aware that Paul mentioned Mary in the first three chapters of Romans