I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes

[jimmy]

This is a good explanation of how Friends look at scripture as well…again…we have something in common…

Of course we view things much differently from the phrase “We are to become entrenched in scripture…”…but on this point we agree and find unity.

Yes, it is something we can come together on. The scriptures are foundational and we must read them daily to learn of Christ. As saint Jerome said, he who is ignorant of scripture is ignorant of Christ.

Pixie Dust, what I said is not my own. It is true so it belongs to everyone. I can’t say that I have come that conclusion on my own. I only gave the view of scripture that the Church gives of scripture. You can see it in Dei Verbum.

 

[Church_Militant]

I would actually equate the Catholic Church with biblical Christianity rather than Calvinism.

 

[Church_Militant]

Fortunately the United States is rooted in Biblical Christianity (Calvinism).

Yeah…which is why the slave trade took off so well, right? Then we won’t even talk about the oppression of my Irish Catholic ancestors here in this country at the hands of the bigoted Protestants and “Know Nothings”. Yeah…thank God for Calvinism. (NOT!)

Check out the countries dominated by Roman Catholicism and you will see a dark contrast with spiritual and economic oppression. Start with Mexico, to Central America, to South America…and then work your way around the globe and the history books. Here’s some help:

aneki.com/roman_catholic_countries.html

Nice propaganda. Especially when it’s the countries that you don’t cite as Catholic where the abortion rate is way out of control, as it is here in the U.S.

Of course this is unrelated to this topic and is nothing more than your specious attempt to disparage the Catholic faith. It also violates the forum rules that you agreed to, and as been reported to the Mods.

 

[Reformed]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Romans 1:16-17

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”

What is the gospel of God’s grace according to the Apostle Paul?

http://christianmystics.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/sunrisecross.jpg

The Light of the Gospel

Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2 Cor 4

Very interesting to say the least. It’s been less than 2 days and we already have 321 posts and 2,051 views. With that kind of accelerated rate, we will hit the 1,000 mark before the weekend. If you want a deeper study in regards to why the Protestant Reformers had to leave the Roman Catholic Church… I would suggest that you pray and do a very deep study with the Scriptures and this particular website.

monergism.com/ .

I wish you well. I will be back but I cannot invest this much time on this site. Apologetics has a tendency to become a battle in the flesh. We have to wait upon the Lord for insight and learn to trust in Him alone.

 

[cfrancis]

Let’s please continue tommorow.

Continue? You haven’t even begun! There are 20+ pages of posts full of Scripture revealing how Paul’s (and James’ and Christ’s) words are in harmony withe the Catholic Church - and not one piece defending your position.
You make an assertion, such as Paul and James are speaking of different justifications, and do not provide any support for it.
Your position has been trampled under the weight of Scripture, hence your departing shot:

I wish you well. I will be back but I cannot invest this much time on this site. Apologetics has a tendency to become a battle in the flesh. We have to wait upon the Lord for insight and learn to trust in Him alone.

So sad…had you ears to hear and eyes to see, you could have learned much.

 

[RobHom]

Is there a reason why only the Apostle Paul’s writings are fit for discussion? What about the words of Jesus?

You beat me to it… Seems to me, some people, outside of the Catholic Church…actually “worship” Paul in that they place all of their eggs in that basket called “Paul”…and completely ignore the words of Christ Himself.

Are you a Paulician or a Christian?

That’s a very good question!! And its one that many who place all of their eggs in that one basket have a hard time answering.

 

[ryanoneil]

Don’t you think our division in Christendom is based on our understanding and reason for our good works done in Christ?

Not entirely, but that is one aspect.

Biblical Christians see our good works as the evidence of already been justified on the sole basis of the perfect righteousness of Christ alone. We do the works that God prepared us to do in advance out of our love and gratitude for God in what He has done for us in Christ. We are not trying to merit our salvation because Christ already merited our salvation for us.

Since Roman Catholicism blends justification and sanctification, and Catholic Christians receives final justification at the end of his life, it sure seems the Roman Catholic’s good works done in Christ is the final basis of his justification. And if you were not good enough, then there is purgatory. Do you think my understanding is accurate?

Your understanding of Catholicism is NOT accurate

You are confusing works of law and good works. I’ll respond after I get some sleep.

Does the Apostle Paul actually teach that we are credited (imputed) with the righteousness of Christ on our account

I don’t want to mischaracterize what you are saying, so I’ll state the Catholic belief.

Paul teaches an inner change of person, which is an (Infusion) of righteousness.

For if, by the transgression of one person, death came to reign through that one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of justification come to reign in life through the one person Jesus Christ. (Rom. 5:17)

We do not receive Christ’s personal level of righteousness (which is impossible), but we are made righteous on His account by God’s mercy and the Lord’s work on the cross.

For just as through the disobedience of one person the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of one the many will be made righteous. (Rom 5:19)

The word made in Greek is “katestathesan” which refers to a real, actual, ontological change in the person’s soul. We are not just declared righteous, but are actually made righteous.

**So whoever is in Christ is a new creation: the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come. (2 Cor. 5:17) **

For neither does circumcision mean anything, nor does uncircumcision, but only a new creation. (Gal. 6:15 )

We are not just the old creation that is covered up. The old has passed away, and behold, the new has come.

when we first believe as the sole basis of permanent justification before God?

All of us, gazing with unveiled face on the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, as from the Lord who is the Spirit. (2 Cor 3:18)

Therefore, we are not discouraged; rather, although our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. (2 Cor. 4:16 )

and have put on the new self, which is being renewed, for knowledge, in the image of its creator. (Col. 3:10)

justification is ongoing and changes in degrees throughout one’s life. It does not happen all at once, and is not an external declaration. Justification happens every day, and concerns our inner nature.

Peace

 

[cfrancis]

Well said, Ryan!

 

[Reformed]

The atheism in America which supports abortion and even infanticide in the case of Barack Obama is the result of protestantism. Whether Europe is destitute of all morals is irrelevant because so is the US. The US was big into slavery. Was that a good thing? Maybe you can find some good Christians in America, but the same can be found in Europe and every Catholic country. And to put the cherry on top the country with the greatest moral code is Vatican city, which is its own country.

LOL… I read about the apparent immorality of Pope Leo X…the one who called Luther a wild boar. It appears Pope Leo X was a homosexual. Quite ironic, considering that particular vicar was in power during the Protestant Reformation.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Leo_X

I’m sure there is a mix of moral and immoral Popes, Bishops, and other Roman Catholic clergy in the Vatican. I wonder what percentage of the residence in the Vatican are true to their celebate sexual vows?

According to the Apostle Peter, there is no distinction between laity and clergy in the kingdom of God. If you have been born from above, you are a Saint, set apart for God’s glory and will, and are part of the royal priesthood. Look to Christ and not mere men.

1 Peter 2:9

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

 

[Reformed]

Continue? You haven’t even begun! There are 20+ pages of posts full of Scripture revealing how Paul’s (and James’ and Christ’s) words are in harmony withe the Catholic Church - and not one piece defending your position.
You make an assertion, such as Paul and James are speaking of different justifications, and do not provide any support for it.
Your position has been trampled under the weight of Scripture, hence your departing shot:
So sad…had you ears to hear and eyes to see, you could have learned much.

I’m back with limited time. I suggest in the meantime, study my signature links to understand why God’s remnant chosen by grace had to leave the Roman Catholic Church. Don’t look for an exclusive response from me. Look to the Word of God. Please use my link to get the Reformation perspective. We both cannot be right at the same time. Have a nice Friday.

 

[Reformed]

Not entirely, but that is one aspect.

Your understanding of Catholicism is NOT accurate

You are confusing works of law and good works. I’ll respond after I get some sleep.

I don’t want to mischaracterize what you are saying, so I’ll state the Catholic belief.

Paul teaches an inner change of person, which is an (Infusion) of righteousness.

For if, by the transgression of one person, death came to reign through that one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of justification come to reign in life through the one person Jesus Christ. (Rom. 5:17)

We do not receive Christ’s personal level of righteousness (which is impossible), but we are made righteous on His account by God’s mercy and the Lord’s work on the cross.

For just as through the disobedience of one person the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of one the many will be made righteous. (Rom 5:19)

The word made in Greek is “katestathesan” which refers to a real, actual, ontological change in the person’s soul. We are not just declared righteous, but are actually made righteous.

**So whoever is in Christ is a new creation: the old things have passed away; behold, new things have come. (2 Cor. 5:17) **

For neither does circumcision mean anything, nor does uncircumcision, but only a new creation. (Gal. 6:15 )

We are not just the old creation that is covered up. The old has passed away, and behold, the new has come.

**All of us, gazing with unveiled face on the glory of the Lord, are being transformed **into the same image from glory to glory, as from the Lord who is the Spirit. (2 Cor 3:18)

**Therefore, we are not discouraged; rather, although our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed **day by day. (2 Cor. 4:16 )

and have put on the new self, which is being renewed, for knowledge, in the image of its creator. (Col. 3:10)

justification is ongoing and changes in degrees throughout one’s life. It does not happen all at once, and is not an external declaration. Justification happens every day, and concerns our inner nature.

Peace

I started a thread about 2 weeks ago called “what has changed in 500 years”. Virtually all Roman Catholics posted that nothing has changed in doctrine in 500 years. The CC can make things sound closer to the truth, but it is the same gospel proclaimed 500 years ago. The Protestant Reformers recovered the biblical gospel of God’s grace revealed in the Scripture alone by the power and grace of God alone. I refuse to make this a personal war between me and all of the Catholics on this site. I can only point you to the Christ reavled in the Scriptures. It is up to you to wrestle with the Scriptures, or you can choose to continue to refuse to be open to the truth. If you have the time, read the Scriptures and consider my link.

 

[Reformed]

We can just offer quotes against eachother without trying to reconcile them but then we would sound like Augustine’s opponent Caelestius. Rather than trying to interpret what I have said you have simply cut and pasted a passage from Romans 9 similar to what Augustine accuses Caelestius of - namely trying to pit scripture against itself.

Now to answer your quote. Your quote does not indicate who is predestined. Who is to say that not all men are predestinated? And from those who are predestined because God foreknew all. This is supported by the fact that Christ died for all as 1Tim.2 says. So Christ predestinated all to be conformed to Christ Jesus. And from these who are predestinated and foreknown God will call those sinners who seek Him(as Christ said in Matt.7, those who seek will find). And further He will justify them because they grow in the love which He fosters in their hearts through His Holy Spirit.

Sounds like a classical Arminain and sem-pelagius response to me. But what do I know?

 

[Reformed]

This is a good explanation of how Friends look at scripture as well…again…we have something in common…

Of course we view things much differently from the phrase “We are to become entrenched in scripture…”…but on this point we agree and find unity.

I think if you study the history and roots of the Quakers, I don’t think your doctrine would allow you to unite with Roman Catholicism. And again, I could be wrong when I read about the Quaker Faith. So what do Quakers actually believe? See what happens when you leave sola scriptura…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaker

 

[Publisher]

I think if you study the history and roots of the Quakers, I don’t think your doctrine would allow you to unite with Roman Catholicism. And again, I could be wrong when I read about the Quaker Faith. So what do Quakers actually believe? See what happens when you leave sola scriptura…

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaker

LOL, I read a few things about Quakers and I have a passing undestanding of Friends belief and practice.

I agree with RCC on some issues, I don’t accept “sola scriptura”…I do believe in the Real Presence in worship. Friends could never “join” with the Catholic church simply because of the view held about “sacraments”.

For a better view of what Friends believe, you may want to look at Philedelphia Yearly Meetings “Faith and Practice” and Barclay’s “Apology for the True Christian Divinity.”

Just a Friendly suggestion of course:wink:

 

[sandusky]

jimmy:

The atheism in America which supports abortion and even infanticide in the case of Barack Obama is the result of protestantism.

Atheism is the result of the suppression of the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18ff).

 

[Reformed]

Atheism is the result of the suppression of the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18ff).

I also think the United States have left their biblical roots as a society. We are becoming a country of secularism and relativisim… even though many people profess Christ… but not necessarily the Christ revealed in Scripture alone See what happens when we leave sola scriptura for secular Christian humanism. If you leave Scripture as the final authority and revelation from God, anything is possible.

 

[jimmy]

Atheism is the result of the suppression of the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18ff).

Which is what protestantism has done.

 

[jimmy]

Sounds like a classical Arminain and sem-pelagius response to me. But what do I know?

And you sound like a classical determinist to me.

 

[Reformed]

And you sound like a classical determinist to me.

As a reminder my friend, it is against Forum rules to speak about political canidates. Was Augustine a determinst too? So, why are you able to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and most do not?

 

[ryanoneil]

The Protestant Reformers recovered the biblical gospel of God’s grace revealed in the Scripture alone by the power and grace of God alone.

But you have not even come close to proving the above statement is true.

I refuse to make this a personal war between me and all of the Catholics on this site.

You are right. It shouldn’t be a war. Unfortunately it turns into one sometimes.
I haven’t got the impression that you and I are at war. We are having a civil discussion.

In post #3 you said

I really don’t expect many Roman Catholics to freely post on this thread. This is a great opportunity for all of us. If I am wrong, please enlighten me by quoting the Apostle Paul.

I have done my very best to do this. Even playing by your rules (which are quite restrictive).

So I ask you to return the favor. If my last post is wrong, please enlighten me by quoting the Apostle Paul.

I can only point you to the Christ reavled in the Scriptures. It is up to you to wrestle with the Scriptures, or you can choose to continue to refuse to be open to the truth. If you have the time, read the Scriptures and consider my link.

That is not fair! I thought we were wrestling with the Scriptures.

Please don’t ask me to refer to your tradition. (Which you’ve not accepted from Catholics)
You established rules, and made a request in post # 3. Please return the favor.

P.S. (Do you see why I didn’t start that Catholic Calvinsit post while I’m busy)