I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes

[jimmy]

No, the passage continues that they exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

Catholics have exchanged the glory of God in the form an image, not protestants.

I disagree but I will not argue since I have already determined that I am bowing out of the discussion.

 

[sandusky]

I disagree but I will not argue since I have already determined that I am bowing out of the discussion.

Convenient.

 

[tGette]

For the sake of Christ that we both profess, I no longer will be responding to Jimmy.

1 Peter 3:15

but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,

I have got to go, but Christ would have wanted you to be gentle and respectful not to ignore a person.

Closing off communication would be disrespectful do you not think?

Of course…maybe taking a break is never hurtful…to recollect.

I think there is a call for some reconciliation here.

Anyways…my lunch break is over.

Peace everyone!

 

[Reformed]

Jim Bakker. Oral Roberts. Jimmy Swaggart, Aaron Alamo. Glass houses.

TEST: Find anything the Catholic Church has ever written or taught about the Jews that is in the same universe as Luther’s hate-filled venom.

Your very foundation is an apparent assumption that the Church that Christ founded has fallen, contrary to His own words! However, what you cannot realize, without the illumination of the Holy Spirit, is that your position is error. So, I pray for you.

The demon has divided Christianity. It is good that you are here, and I pray that you are willing to follow Christ wherever He leads you. He leads us all to unity, as He prayed before the Father. The demon leads only to division and strife.

Christ’s peace.

I am pointing everyone (myself included) to the biblical Jesus Christ revealed in the Scriptures alone. I am not debating Popes (vicars), Protestant Reformers, and others who profess Christ throughout history in regards to truth. Thank you for your warm welcome. By the grace of God, I hope our time spent together will help each one us grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ…therefore growing each one of us closer to God. May God be glorified in all that we do togther on this Forum site. Please pray for me when I fall short of this goal and when the indwelling sin in me (flesh) gets the best of me (rom 7).

 

[jimmy]

Convenient.

You can think that. I find arguing in this thread to be nothing but a spur toward uncharitableness. Why should I argue? It wouldn’t be a debate about the verse in hand but would be about who has actually abandoned the truth for an image. I have made my conclusion. You have made your conclusion.

 

[Reformed]

I have got to go, but Christ would have wanted you to be gentle and respectful not to ignore a person.

Closing off communication would be disrespectful do you not think?

Of course…maybe taking a break is never hurtful…to recollect.

I think there is a call for some reconciliation here.

Anyways…my lunch break is over.

Peace everyone!

Oh… I’m not sure if you or I can speak for Jesus Christ on this matter. It is one of conscience before God because we know man judges by the outward appearance, but God knows our hearts.

 

[Reformed]

You can think that. I find arguing in this thread to be nothing but a spur toward uncharitableness. Why should I argue? It wouldn’t be a debate about the verse in hand but would be about who has actually abandoned the truth for an image. I have made my conclusion. You have made your conclusion.

I hope you will be true to your word.

I must bow out because this thread is good for nothing but to get me angry and to lose all charity.

 

[sandusky]

You can think that. I find arguing in this thread to be nothing but a spur toward uncharitableness. Why should I argue? It wouldn’t be a debate about the verse in hand but would be about who has actually abandoned the truth for an image. I have made my conclusion. You have made your conclusion.

I thought you were leaving?

 

[reteeks21]

I am sorry. I was thinking your post was by reformed and it was a continued post in the line that Catholics have done evil and Calvinists are the greatest. My statements about abortion were in the same line of arguementation. It was simply a rhetorical statement that if Catholics are to blame for the errors or problems of south america or europe then calvinists are to blame for the errors of the US, since reformed claimed that the calvinists founded the US. I don’t deny that Catholics have done wrong. That is something that we recognize but I also expect protestants(including Calvinists) to do the same. Once again I am sorry.

No worries. Sorry if I added to the confusion. I didn’t mean to start a war of words. Sorry for going that way. My bad.

 

[ryanoneil]

19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20 For by works of the law no human being [3] will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Here we absolutely agree. “works of the law” refers to the law of Moses or to any legal system that makes God our debtor. This is because law requires payment, but grace is a free gift from God. Therefore, faith must be behind every good work in order for it to be a work of grace. If not, it is a work of debt, and we cannot obligate God to do anything for us.

The Righteousness of God Through Faith

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

These verses do not say we are justified by “faith alone.” It only indicates that faith comes first.

Please reexamine my post about the law of Christ

Do you not know that if you present yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? (Rom. 6:16)

Please don’t confuse the issue. In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. Paul says it as do the rest of the gospel writers.

27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Paul says it here. He also says the law of faith includes “obedient faith” and a “work of faith.” Obedience means persevering in good works to the end. Paul does not teach that faith excludes good works.

Through him we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the obedience of faith, for the sake of his name, among all the Gentiles (Rom. 1:5)

but now manifested through the prophetic writings and, according to the command of the eternal God, made known to all nations to bring about the obedience of faith (Rom 16:26)

calling to mind your work of faith and labor of love and endurance in hope of our Lord Jesus Christ, before our God and Father (1 Thess. 1:3)

To this end, we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and powerfully bring to fulfillment every good purpose and every effort of faith (2 Thess. 1:11)

For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. (Gal. 5:6)

And this leads us back to the beginning of our conversation. Rom 2:7-10 and

For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. (Rom 2:13)

Paul is being very clear in scripture.

 

[Reformed]

I just got off a teleconference and did a quick check, but did not review your posts closely. I think the Law of Christ at the end of Galatians is “bear each others burden thus fullill the law of Christ”, correct? So, what happens when we don’t always do this. We are still commanded to obey the 10 commandments which is summarized as to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul,strenght, and mind and to love our neighor as ourselves. When we don’t do this perfectly we fall short of the glory of God and sin. All sin is not obeying God. Disobedience of the revealed will of God is sin. So the law is all God commads us to do. Therefore, how can your disobedience once united to Christ condemn you since God has already credited the perfect righteousness of Christ to our account upon our conversion and permanent adoption?

 

[po18guy]

I am pointing everyone (myself included) to the biblical Jesus Christ revealed in the Scriptures alone.

Does the bible teach that it is the sole authority? No, it does not. And, therein lies any and all confusion you may have. You are seeking Christ, the goal of all mankind, but until your heart is illumined by the Holy Spirit, it is extremely difficult to see the error of sola scriptura. Many, many converts have experienced such Heavenly illumination and developed a hunger for more.

Rather than trading assertions or disagreements, why don’t you delve into the reasoning that Protestant converts to Catholicism have used to lead them home? We cannot persuade you. Only the Holy Spirit does that.

I beseech you, if you love Jesus Christ, and desire an even fuller, more profound relationship with him, please(!) at leeast read these conversion stories:

chnetwork.org/converts.htm

Christ’s peace be with you.

 

[Reformed]

Does the bible teach that it is the sole authority? No, it does not. And, therein lies any and all confusion you may have. You are seeking Christ, the goal of all mankind, but until your heart is illumined by the Holy Spirit, it is extremely difficult to see the error of sola scriptura. Many, many converts have experienced such Heavenly illumination and developed a hunger for more.

Rather than trading assertions or disagreements, why don’t you delve into the reasoning that Protestant converts to Catholicism have used to lead them home? We cannot persuade you. Only the Holy Spirit does that.

I beseech you, if you love Jesus Christ, and desire an even fuller, more profound relationship with him, please(!) at leeast read these conversion stories:

chnetwork.org/converts.htm

Christ’s peace be with you.

Thanks for sharing but I think the basis of this thread does not include the debate for final authority. Please consider the OP. The only relevant conversion on this thread is the one of the Chief of all sinners (Saul to Paul).

The Conversion of Saul - Acts

9:1 But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. 3 Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” 5 And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 6 But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.” 7 The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. 8 Saul rose from the ground, and although his eyes were opened, he saw nothing. So they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And for three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

10 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11 And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, 12 and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” 13 But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name.” 15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.” 17 So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; 19 and taking food, he was strengthened.

 

[po18guy]

I just got off a teleconference and did a quick check, but did not review your posts closely. I think the Law of Christ at the end of Galatians is “bear each others burden thus fullill the law of Christ”, correct? So, what happens when we don’t always do this. We are still commanded to obey the 10 commandments which is summarized as to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul,strenght, and mind and to love our neighor as ourselves. When we don’t do this perfectly we fall short of the glory of God and sin. All sin is not obeying God. Disobedience of the revealed will of God is sin. So the law is all God commads us to do. Therefore, how can your disobedience once united to Christ condemn you since God has already credited the perfect righteousness of Christ to our account upon our conversion and permanent adoption?

This is OSAS, which is not taught in the bible. Read: 2 Peter 2:20, even though it is only Peter and not Paul writing it, it remains scripture. and we must ponder it.

Consider also Judas, who most certainly was “saved”, but lost it when he invited satan into his heart. What did Christ say about his end?

Christ’s peace.

 

[Reformed]

This is OSAS, which is not taught in the bible. Read: 2 Peter 2:20, even though it is only Peter and not Paul writing it, it remains scripture. and we must ponder it.

Consider also Judas, who most certainly was “saved”, but lost it when he invited satan into his heart. What did Christ say about his end?

Christ’s peace.

Please stay within the OP and you might learn something from the Lord.

 

[po18guy]

Please stay within the OP and you might learn something from the Lord.

Good grief! I deleted the post, OK? I thought I was glad to see you back. I thought you were actually inquiring. I thought you wanted a fuller relationship with Christ. Please tell me I was correct in this.

Also, please explain why you posted this thread. Do you believe that Catholics are somehow ashamed of the Gospel? Really?

For Catholics, much to your SHOCK :bigyikes: , the bible has some of the Gospel in it. However, Christ is the Gospel. We never forget that Christ is larger than the bible. Christ is the source and summit of our faith. We would love Christ if the bible did not exist, just as the Apostles and early Christians did. We do not worship the bible, as some apparently do. We worship Christ. We spend time in his physical presence. We eat His Body and drink His Blood. There is no greater personal relationship with Christ than the Catholic Church.

How much do you love Christ? Enough to follow Him into the Catholic Church? I pray your answer is “yes”. Your response will reveal your sincerity.

 

[cfrancis]

I don’t want to fight with every Roman Catholic here. There is a difference with wrestling with the Scriptures as final authority as compared to wrestling with the Scriptures with the lenses of Sacred Tradition and the Magestrium. You’re wrestling is quite filtered, don’t you agree? I have found most Roman Catholics trying to reconcile Scripture passages with their Roman Catholic lenses (Catholic understanding). I can have the exact same discussion and debate with LDS Christians. What we personal receieve as final authority from God determines how we see things.

Inexplicably, you’ve had 25 pages of this thread to defend your position with Scripture, yet to no avail. Instead, every time Catholics have presented the writings of Paul and their harmony with Catholic teaching, you have skirted the issue or avoided it altogether.
In fact, I don’t recall you directly addressing the Scriptures presented that solidly refute your position.
Sadly, you have become your own authority, reading those pieces of Scripture that make it through the “Pope Reformed” lenses.

Of course, all can be made well should you actually reply to the posts where Scripture rends your argument asunder.

 

[cfrancis]

I just got off a teleconference and did a quick check, but did not review your posts closely. I think the Law of Christ at the end of Galatians is “bear each others burden thus fullill the law of Christ”, correct? So, what happens when we don’t always do this. We are still commanded to obey the 10 commandments which is summarized as to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul,strenght, and mind and to love our neighor as ourselves. When we don’t do this perfectly we fall short of the glory of God and sin. All sin is not obeying God. Disobedience of the revealed will of God is sin. So the law is all God commads us to do. Therefore, how can your disobedience once united to Christ condemn you since God has already credited the perfect righteousness of Christ to our account upon our conversion and permanent adoption?

You are asking, once we’ve been grafted to the main root (Jesus Christ), how can we be cut off?

 

[Reformed]

Good grief! I deleted the post, OK? I thought I was glad to see you back. I thought you were actually seeking. Was I wrong?

I’m sorry if I sounds offensive and pushy. If we drift too far from the OP, then this becomes a discussion and debate about too many issues. You are right in the areas that needs to be discussed. Maybe a specific thread on those issues need to be started?

 

[Reformed]

You are asking, once we’ve been grafted to the main root (Jesus Christ), how can we be cut off?

I love John 15 too. Remember, I believe in an invisible and visible church too. Do you at least agree that the law of God is everyhing God commands us to do, or not to do? Do we sin and break the law of God when we do not fullfill the law of Christ, or do not love the Lord our God ALL the time? In your understanding of sin, are you cut off from Christ when you sin?