I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes

[Grat02]

Dear Reformed,

You’ve been asking us Catholics to defend our views regarding Justification based upon Paul’s response to the question, “Sirs! What must I do to be saved?” which is, “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.”
I assume you believe we can’t, otherwise you wouldn’t be trying to set us up for what you think will be failure. You’re doing this out of charity, of course, because you want us to see the fallacy of our positions and so turn to the Truth. I can admire that, really. And I really appreciate that you would take so much time out of your day to get your point across so we can be saved, too.
However, by what I’ve read through this entire thread, Catholics have provided ample evidence to defend their beliefs. But you think they’ve failed because our theology of Justification is not explicitly defended by that one powerful statement of, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” According to St Paul, this “belief” meant more than simple affirmation, and it was tied to something much greater than itself. Likewise, Catholics believe that faith has to produce fruits of charity in order for it to be a living faith through which Grace operates. Along this same line, Catholics also believe St. Paul’s teaching that only Faith, Hope, and Charity are eternal, but the greatest of these virtues is Charity. Thus, Charity is greater than Faith. After all if one has the Faith to move mountains, but has not Faith, his beliefs are in vain.
We also believe that we are saved by grace through faith, and that this salvation is free without strings of merit attached. We are justified by grace through faith once through the merits of Christ on the Cross. But we add to the merits of Christ by suffering ourselves from the base pleasures of life so that our sinful natures do not have room to take root. The more we attach ourselves to things of this world and do nothing to relieve ourselves from them, the more intense the flames of our sufferings will be at our judgment—we will be saved, but only as passing through fire. All our worldly works will have burned up and we will have very little to show for our time here on earth.
At the point we respond to God’s grace we are not simply imputed the righteousness of God, we are made new creatures, and the original sin inherited from Adam and Eve is washed entirely away through the sprinkling of water. Although the normal route for justification comes through Baptism, Catholics believe that those who turn to Christ and have not the opportunity to receive Baptism will also be saved, just like the thief on the cross. However, due to concupiscience, we are continually tempted to sin and sometimes do—gravely even though the stain of original sin is removed. Only through our full will and knowledge can we choose to separate ourselves again from God through sin. True repentance is the only way for us to return, after all, we cannot go on living like we had in our formal lives and make arrogant presumptions regarding the mercy of God’s grace.
What I’ve written here is all implied within the writings of St. Paul, just like the implications for Trinity are stronger in some areas of Scripture than others. With so much room left for interpretation, St. Paul wouldn’t simply tell someone to believe and then send them on their way. He would go to their houses if need be and instruct them on what it means to be saved by grace through faith. He would want to make sure that they understood so he would instruct them regarding the importance of what it means to congregate in the name of Jesus; make sure they were baptized; warn them against things to watch out for, like not being in grave sin and receive the Body of our Lord, etc. He would be adamant that all were familiar with the writings of the other Apostles and were under their discipleship. He would warn against heretics and command them to hold fast to the traditions that he passed on to them so that unity would continue and salvation through Christ would be sustained throughout the generations.
St. Peter himself states in one of his epistles that the writings of St Paul are difficult to understand and many are those who twist them to their own destruction. It seems that matters of Truth are so important to the unity of the Faith that St. Peter is implying that there can only be one authority to handle the business of doctrinal matters; otherwise, the Church would no longer be one. God would not leave us without an authority if true doctrines can be easily misinterpreted and misapplied. Our eternal destinies are too important to leave up to ourselves to make. Yes, Scripture is one authority if it is appropriately applied through the lens of the Holy Spirit. We get the Spirit’s help to form proper doctrine through the authority of the Church. Authority cannot lie in many, but only one, united Church can sustain Truth throughout the generations. St. Paul himself stated that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth.
Therefore, this debate only solidifies my faith in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church even more. Only confusion and chaos arises without the authority of the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth, which Christ Himself established to sustain His Body through the wars that have waged against it since Marcion.

 

[Reformed]

The Scripture reveals that we are justified upon conversion. Salvation has a past, present, and future tense. However, justification is used in the past tense.

The Righteousness of God Through Faith - Rom 3

21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Abraham Justified by Faith
4:1 What then shall we say was gained by [4] Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5 And to the one who does not work but believes in [5] him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8 blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

The Promise Realized Through Faith
13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. 15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. 18 In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” 19 He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah’s womb. 20 No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, 21 fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. 22 That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.” 23 But the words “it was counted to him” were not written for his sake alone, 24 but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.

Romans 5

Peace with God Through Faith
5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we [1] have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith [2] into this grace in which we stand, and we [3] rejoice [4] in hope of the glory of God. 3 More than that, we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

 

[ryanoneil]

I’m not baptist my friend, I’m Reformed. The promise is to you and your household (Acts 2, 1 Cor 7). Within most Reformed Churches, our infants are baptized. Our children are considered covenant children and are included in the church.

WCF

Chapter XXVIII
Of Baptism
I. Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ,[1] not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church;[2] but also to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace,[3] of his ingrafting into Christ,[4] of regeneration,[5] of remission of sins,[6] and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in the newness of life.[7] Which sacrament is, by Christ’s own appointment, to be continued in His Church until the end of the world.[8]

II. The outward element to be used in this sacrament is water, wherewith the party is to be baptized, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, by a minister of the Gospel, lawfully called thereunto.[9]

III. Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary; but Baptism is rightly administered by pouring, or sprinkling water upon the person.[10]

IV. Not only those that do actually profess faith in and obedience unto Christ,[11] but also the infants of one, or both, believing parents, are to be baptized.[12]

V. Although it is a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance,[13] yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated, or saved, without it:[14] or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.[15]

VI. The efficacy of Baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered;[16] yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited, and conferred, by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongs unto, according to the counsel of God’s own will, in His appointed time.[17]

VII. The sacrament of Baptism is but once to be administered unto any person.[18]

reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

I’m sorry if I was vague in my post. It is clear with the Jailer, but In the case of Lydia and her house (16:13-15), there is no mention of the household members receiving any instruction in the faith, or even hearing the Gospel, or believing prior to their baptism. So when you said: “Of course, they were baptized after they believed” I assumed you were saying that belief before baptism was necessary.

And, thank you for the post. It high time we stop talking past one another by quoting bible verses with no additional comments. I think we are finally getting into the issues.

It appears that our understanding of baptism is very similair, although I’m alittle confussed by something. Does section I say that the first [6] things happen at the moment of baptism?

Maybe we could discuss the meaning of those 6 terms.

Also, why do you keep quoting 1 Corinthians 1:17? What are you really trying to say?

 

[Reformed]

Romans 8

Life in the Spirit
8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [1] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you [2] free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, [3] he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

Heirs with Christ
12 So then, brothers, [4] we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons [5] of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Future Glory
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. 23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24 For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because [6] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

God’s Everlasting Love
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be [8] against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? 33 Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. [9] 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? 36 As it is written,

“For your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Reformed]

I’m sorry if I was vague in my post. It is clear with the Jailer, but In the case of Lydia and her house (16:13-15), there is no mention of the household members receiving any instruction in the faith, or even hearing the Gospel, or believing prior to their baptism. So when you said: “Of course, they were baptized after they believed” I assumed you were saying that belief before baptism was necessary.

And, thank you for the post. It high time we stop talking past one another by quoting bible verses with no additional comments. I think we are finally getting into the issues.

It appears that our understanding of baptism is very similair, although I’m alittle confussed by something. Does section I say that the first [6] things happen at the moment of baptism?

Maybe we could discuss the meaning of those 6 terms.

Also, why do you keep quoting 1 Corinthians 1:17? What are you really trying to say?

Do you believe Paul taught baptismal regeneration? I quoted 1 Cor 7 in regards to supporting infant baptism as a sign and a seal (not infant baptism).

 

[ryanoneil]

Do you believe Paul taught baptismal regeneration?

Yes! Rebirth and regeneration are the same thing.

Titus 3:5
not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit,
6
whom he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our savior,
7
so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

Do you believe Paul taught baptismal regeneration?
How about the other [5]?

 

[Reformed]

Lydia’s conversion is extremely Calvinistic:

Act 16

The Conversion of Lydia

11 So, setting sail from Troas, we made a direct voyage to Samothrace, and the following day to Neapolis, 12 and from there to Philippi, which is a leading city of the [4] district of Macedonia and a Roman colony. We remained in this city some days. 13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together. 14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. 15 And after she was baptized, and her household as well, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.

 

[graceandglory]

Are you saying when the Apostle Paul proclaimed the gospel to the Gentiles, his gospel was incomplete? I personally think the Apostle Paul is the greatest missionary in church history.

Yes, that’s what I’m saying. And I’m sure St. Paul would be the first to admit it too.

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.
St. Paul’s Second Letter to the Thessalonians 2:15

It’s quite possible that St. Paul was the greatest Christian missionary ever. Why would you think Catholics would disagree there?

 

[Reformed]

Yes! Rebirth and regeneration are the same thing.

**Titus 3:5
not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth **and renewal by the holy Spirit,
6
whom he richly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our savior,
7
so that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life.

Do you believe Paul taught baptismal regeneration?
How about the other [5]?

Try a Protesant translation:

Titus 3

Be Ready for Every Good Work
3:1 Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. 3 For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. 4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. 9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

Also, go back to my posting of Romans chapters 3, 4, 5, and 8. Please understand Paul in light of all 13 Epistles. Did you know that circumcision is the Old Testament sacrament that was replaced with baptism as the New Testament sacrament?

9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. Rom 4

25 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. 26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded [2] as circumcision? 27 Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code [3] and circumcision but break the law. 28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. - Rom 2

Galatians 6:15

For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

 

[Reformed]

Yes, that’s what I’m saying. And I’m sure St. Paul would be the first to admit it too.

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.
St. Paul’s Second Letter to the Thessalonians 2:15

It’s quite possible that St. Paul was the greatest Christian missionary ever. Why would you think Catholics would disagree there?

Catholic tradition that cannot be suported in the Scriptures is a different kind of tradition. I’t called human tradition.

Colossians 2:8

See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. Paul in the Holy Scriptures

Apostolic tradition has been written (Holy Scriptures).

2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.

2 Thessalonians 3:6
Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.

The us are the Apostles found in the Bible alone.

 

[ryanoneil]

Try a Protesant translation:

Titus 3

Be Ready for Every Good Work
3:1 Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people. 3 For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. 4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. 9 But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10 As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

Thank you. So, it is safe to assume your answer to baptismal regeneration is yes?

And regeneration takes place at the moment of baptism?

Also, go back to my posting of Romans chapters 3, 4, 5, and 8. Please understand Paul in light of all 13 Epistles. Did you know that circumcision is the Old Testament sacrament that was replaced with baptism as the New Testament sacrament?

Yes.

9 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. 10 How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. 11 He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, 12 and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. Rom 4

25 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. 26 So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded [2] as circumcision? 27 Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code [3] and circumcision but break the law. 28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. - Rom 2

Galatians 6:15

For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.

Can you please state what you are trying to say?

 

[graceandglory]

Catholic tradition that cannot be suported in the Scriptures is a different kind of tradition. I’t called human tradition.

Colossians 2:8

See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.

That’s interesting. The verse in Thessalonians is referring to which kind then?

It’s still oral tradition.

Just because you don’t understand something doesn’t make it incorrect. Your scripture knowledge can’t be as vast as the 2,000 year history of the Catholic Church, plus the Jewish faith that preceded it.

All Catholic Tradition is supported in Scripture.

This would be another area where definitions would have to be agreed upon before arguing.

 

[Reformed]

Thank you. So, it is safe to assume your answer to baptismal regeneration is yes?

And regeneration takes place at the moment of baptism?

Yes.

Can you please state what you are trying to say?

I have no ability to illuminate Scripture for you. We are both dependent upon the grace of God through the Spirit to understand Scripture. I can just post it and trust God is working His will on this thread.

Luke 10:21

Jesus Rejoices in the Father’s Will

In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.

John 3

You Must Be Born Again

3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus [1] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again [2] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [3] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You [4] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you [6] do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. [7] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. [8]

 

[graceandglory]

This thread is starting to look as fractured as the protestant revolt. I think the subject of the thread was St. Paul’s “gospel of grace.”

Any other subjects should have their own thread.

 

[Reformed]

This thread is starting to look as fractured as the protestant revolt. I think the subject of the thread was St. Paul’s “gospel of grace.”

Any other subjects should have their own thread.

Thanks for the reminder. Therefore, what is the gospel of God’s grace according to the Apostle Paul? Just imagine that I’m a nonbeliever. Please proclaim the gospel (good news) of God according to Apostle Paul. You can use the 13 Epistles of Paul to present the gospel to me.

 

[graceandglory]

Catholic tradition that cannot be suported in the Scriptures is a different kind of tradition. I’t called human tradition.

Says who? You? You are now equal to Catholic teaching?


Really, don’t you think that the Church that decided which scriptures were inspired and God-breathed, the Church that defines the doctrine of Tradition, would be the one that knows the difference between Church Tradition and human tradition?

Where do you think the doctrine came from?

If you say anything other than Scripture, then I think you’ve lost your marbles.

 

[thirdn6]

to the op,
You said you’re not ashamed of the gospel? Good! Read them again at least 10x (Saint Matthew, Saint Mark, Saint Luke, and Saint John) and NEVER skip a verse! So then you’ll know how the Apostles and early Church fathers have taught the gospels. Keep in mind that Saint Paul was led to them first and was himself taught before he was sent. 10x is easy. The apostles and early church fathers taught the gospel sooo many times over and over by words of mouth before they were inspired to write them down.
Want to become a teacher? Become a catholic. You can’t be questioned if you adhere to her teachings. I mean your authority to teach can’t be questioned.

 

[Reformed]

Says who? You? You are now equal to Catholic teaching?


Really, don’t you think that the Church that decided which scriptures were inspired and God-breathed, the Church that defines the doctrine of Tradition, would be the one that knows the difference between Church Tradition and human tradition?

Where do you think the doctrine came from?

If you say anything other than Scripture, then I think you’ve lost your marbles.

Please see post 507.

 

[ryanoneil]

I have no ability to illuminate Scripture for you. We are both dependent upon the grace of God through the Spirit to understand Scripture. I can just post it and trust God is working His will on this thread.

OK Do you have the ability to illuminate the (WCF Chapter XXVIII Of Baptism) for me?

Luke 10:21

Jesus Rejoices in the Father’s Will

In that same hour he rejoiced in the Holy Spirit and said, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.

John 3

You Must Be Born Again

3:1 Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus [1] by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again [2] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. [3] 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You [4] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus said to him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and yet you do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know, and bear witness to what we have seen, but you [6] do not receive our testimony. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. [7] 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. [8]

I’d ask about your a particular understanding of this scripture, but we have no assurance that the grace of God through the Spirit has given either of us the proper understanding.

So, maybe we could compair the WCF Chapter XXVIII Of Baptism with the Catholic understanding?

 

[Reformed]

OK Do you have the ability to illuminate the (WCF Chapter XXVIII Of Baptism) for me?

I’d ask about your a particular understanding of this scripture, but we have no assurance that the grace of God through the Spirit has given either of us the proper understanding.

So, maybe we could compair the WCF Chapter XXVIII Of Baptism with the Catholic understanding?

Please see post 507.