I am not Catholic

[Fidelis]

Heathen Dawn:

We don’t know that. Even the earliest gospel, that of Mark, isn’t contemporary with Jesus.

The eyewitness accounts on which it is based are indeed contemporaneous with Jesus. Discounting them because they weren’t down as they happened is akin to discounting a book written today about the fall of the Berlin Wall.

That’s right, but I don’t think Christianity can possibly the truth, as it has such a gloomy eschatology, with the majority of humanity ending up in eternal torment, and the minority as eternal zombies praising God all day long.

Whether an eschatology is “gloomy” or cheery has no bearing on its truth. Either it is true or not and that is what must be dealt with.

Your concept about life in heaven as zombie-ism indicates how little you know of what Christians believe about it.

Martyrs are irrational people par excellence—valuing ideology over basic surivival instinct. Were the 9/11 terrorists (Islamic martyrs) rational people? Of course not.

In fact they were quite rational, and that makes the act or terrorism they commited all the more horrendous. If they were not rational, then they have diminished responsibility for it. They knew exactly what they were doing.

The would-be messiahs may have been as cynical as David Koresh in our times, but the people weren’t as sceptical as we are.

That’s a rather condescending attitude toward those who lived before us if they had no life experiences to form them as we do. They may have been less technologically and scientifically advanced than us, but they were as human as we. Witness Nathaniel’s cynical comment “what good can come out of Nazereth?”, “Doubting” Thomas’ famous doubts about Jesus’ resurrrection, and Pilate’s dismissive retort “What is truth?”

So the first Muslims, complete with martyrs, being convicted of the truth of Islam are at least some evidence for the divine inspiration of the Qur’an?

I addressed this in a previous post.

 

[Heathen_Dawn]

Fidelis:

Whether an eschatology is “gloomy” or cheery has no bearing on its truth.

It does indeed. You can never get me to believe the Creator of the universe has a gloomy plan for the cosmos and mankind. I have far too much trust to believe in it. It is because I believe in the goodness of the Creator that I’m neither atheist nor Christian.

Your concept about life in heaven as zombie-ism indicates how little you know of what Christians believe about it.

Is there room for eternal progression of the human soul in Christian heaven?

That’s a rather condescending attitude toward those who lived before us if they had no life experiences to form them as we do. They may have been less technologically and scientifically advanced than us, but they were as human as we.

But it’s a fact people in those times were, on average, less sceptical than we are on average.

 

[Exporter]

Heathen Dawn posted the following:
“. The burden of proof is on the one who wishes to convert someone else. If you’re a Christian on an atheist board on a mission to convert atheists to Christianity, it’s up to you to give evidence of the truth of Christianity. Conversely, if an atheist comes on this board to deconvert Catholics to atheism, it’s up to him to prove the falsehood of Catholicism and the truth of atheism. And I’m a Wiccan whose religion is my own personal affair, I come here not to convert people but to explain and to counter misconceptions, so there is no burden of proof on me whatsoever.”

• He has taken the position that he has to prove nothing. That is convenient. He can sit back and take potshots at anyone who posts on this thread without explaining his critisicisms. That would be the perfect attack on this Christian Forum wouldn’t it? He can throw out any contention and not have to back it up with an explaination. Why does one do this? It could be boredom, an intellectual excercise or it could be an anti-Catholic subtely slipping in some heresy.
  He assumes that we are here to convert others. That IS NOT true. This is not a place to be converted. But he wants us to think we are trying to convert him so we will go off on a wild goose chase.

 

[Heathen_Dawn]

Exporter:

He has taken the position that he has to prove nothing.

Of course not, since it’s not in my interests to get you to believe the same as me.

He can sit back and take potshots at anyone who posts on this thread without explaining his critisicisms. That would be the perfect attack on this Christian Forum wouldn’t it?

The only reason I participate in this thread is its title.

or it could be an anti-Catholic subtely slipping in some heresy.

I’m not anti-Catholic per se—I dislike Christianity as a whole, and Catholicism happens to be one branch of it. And I’m not slipping in some heresy, because I’m not a heretic, I’m an infidel.

He assumes that we are here to convert others. That IS NOT true. This is not a place to be converted.

The anti-Protestant threads show otherwise.

 

[kparlet]

BlessedBe13:

I didn’t check anything because none represented me. I was Catholic for most of my life, was never confirmed, and now am looking at another religion. I don’t “hate” Catholicism, but it’s not for me.

BlessedBe13, please know that what I say, I say out of complete charity and loving kindness. I know you probably don’t believe that the Catholic Church is the one true church established by Christ, but for just one moment let’s say that it is…is it still not for you? The Catholic Church makes a pretty bold claim - one that is either made out of arrogance or out of truth. No other church that makes this claim has been around for 2,000 years. Don’t you think you owe it to yourself to at least look into the possibility that this is where Christ wants you (and the rest of us) to be? Just a thought.

 

[BlessedBe13]

kparlet:

I know you probably don’t believe that the Catholic Church is the one true church established by Christ, but for just one moment let’s say that it is…is it still not for you?

I do believe that the Catholic Church started from Jesus, but I also don’t believe that he was God, perhaps given by God the ability to perform miracles,but not God himself.
Here is my opinion regarding truth and religion that I posted on another thread here:

For the physical world I do believe that there is an absolute truth. 2 + 2 =4, if I jump off a building I’m gonna fall, there is a desk sitting in front of me, whether I want to believe it or not, these things are proven facts. But when it comes to religion and the divine, I don’t believe there is one absolute truth. To explain, I believe that we are all worshipping the same god/goddess/deity/creator/life force/whatever and that we are all going to the same place when we die. However, except those that are already dead, no-one really knows what god and the afterlife are like. We all have ideas, and that’s what religion is based on. People’s different ideas of the divine, are the ways that help them to worship/express their faith. And I think *that *is what is important - having faith. It shouldn’t matter whether I view the divine as a god and goddess and you view it as a single, male god (in the trinity). Maybe I’m right and you’re wrong, maybe you’re right and I’m wrong, maybe we are both wrong. Granted, I can’t speak for a god or goddess, but I really don’t think that it would matter how we view them, just that we have faith in them.

kparlet:

Don’t you think you owe it to yourself to at least look into the possibility that this is where Christ wants you (and the rest of us) to be? Just a thought.

Now, I’m not trying to sound rude, but based on my beliefs, it does not matter where Jesus would want me to be. But since I’m assuming when referring to Christ/Jesus you are meaning God, then I believe that God/ess will lead me to the path that is right for me. Since I believe that we are all worshipping the same divine creator, I think that the religion one chooses is the best way that they can understand and relate to the divine.

 

[Fidelis]

Heathen Dawn:

It does indeed. You can never get me to believe the Creator of the universe has a gloomy plan for the cosmos and mankind. I have far too much trust to believe in it. It is because I believe in the goodness of the Creator that I’m neither atheist nor Christian.

It indeed does not. The fact that pulling a bad tooth hurts does not negate the fact that the procedure is correct and end result is beneficial. What you choose to believe about the universe is another thing apart from the reality, and is based on pure emotionality.

Is there room for eternal progression of the human soul in Christian heaven?

Once you are there, no there is not. Being in the direct, loving presence of the the Creator of the universe is a far as anyone can progress.

But it’s a fact people in those times were, on average, less sceptical than we are on average.

That, as I showed above, is not accurate. I would say however, that people then were less cynical than society in general now, but that is a completely different thing.

 

[BlessedBe13]

Fidelis:

What you choose to believe about the universe is another thing apart from the reality, and is based on pure emotionality.

What Heathen_Dawn (or anyone else for that matter) chooses to believe about the divine is no less valid than what you believe. Just because the Catholic religion teaches it does not make it reality. There is no proven reality when it comes to god. The Bible is not proof. It is a religious document written by men. No-one is going to know the “reality” of the divine until they are dead.

 

[Fidelis]

BlessedBe13:

What Heathen_Dawn (or anyone else for that matter) chooses to believe about the divine is no less valid than what you believe. Just because the Catholic religion teaches it does not make it reality. There is no proven reality when it comes to god. The Bible is not proof. It is a religious document written by men. No-one is going to know the “reality” of the divine until they are dead.

This has been addressed in previous posts. The question was not “Is what the Church teaches true?”, but “What do you believe and why do you believe it?”

Way, way back in post 43 I challenged him with the following and I think it’s still valid:

On a certain level, [yours is] a perfectly valid position to hold, however it raises some interesting questions: upon what basis do you believe this? If it is based on just your feelings or what you choose to believe about Jesus, that’s perfectly legit, however it is a very ephemeral basis for making a decision on something so potentially life-changing. The book of Jeremiah says “The heart is deceitful above all things.” Not only is this a religious truth, but any mature person will tell you it is sound psychological advice.

If you base your belief about Jesus on provable facts from the available evidence, this also is cool, but I would be interested in seeing that evidence. In truth, the best basis we have for believing that Jesus existed at all, are the four gospels. If they are trustworthy enough to prove he existed, on what experiential or evidential basis could you deny the many other remarkable claims said about him in those same gospels? As I said in a previous post, if he is not God, then based on what he clearly said he is either a self-deluded fool, a madman, or a liar. If he is none of these then he is what he said he was, which is God.

Revisionists have made claims that the events recounted in the gospels reflect a later gloss and that Jesus didn’t do say or do what is recorded, but on what basis would you believe their analysis, 2000 years removed, over what the gospels say for themselves, or what the first believers (some only a few years from the time of Jesus) believed in and were willing to be martyred for? The same things said about Jesus in the paragraph above can be said about his first followers. It is unlikely they gave their lives because they thought Jesus was a nice guy. I guess the ultimate question is: Who do you say that Jesus is and upon what basis do you believe what you do?

 

[Heathen_Dawn]

Fidelis:

It indeed does not.

It does. I’ll show you how: an all-good Creator is incompatible with people being in eternal torment. Incompatible. INCOMPATIBLE! No matter how you slice it, how you dice it, how you twist it. And since I believe in an all-good Creator, I must, must, MUST reject all of atheism, Christianity and Islam.

The fact that pulling a bad tooth hurts does not negate the fact that the procedure is correct and end result is beneficial.

Human beings aren’t teeth. A tooth can be thrown away, it doesn’t feel anything once pulled. A human cannot be thrown to eternal torment without there being a consequence, the consequence of most grievous injustice.

What you choose to believe about the universe is another thing apart from the reality, and is based on pure emotionality.

Drained out of emotions ideally? Then be thou an atheist.

Once you are there, no there is not.

Then it is hell—at the very least a hell of boredom. Without progress, without change, there is no life and no desire for life.

Being in the direct, loving presence of the the Creator of the universe is a far as anyone can progress.

Then I was right in my remark about the zombies.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Heathen Dawn:

It does. I’ll show you how: an all-good Creator is incompatible with people being in eternal torment. Incompatible. INCOMPATIBLE! No matter how you slice it, how you dice it, how you twist it. And since I believe in an all-good Creator, I must, must, MUST reject all of atheism, Christianity and Islam.

If you believe in an all-Good Creator, then you believe in a Creator that cannot tolerate evil. What should your God do to those who choose evil? Should he allow them to inflict their evil upon his goodness by being in his presence and in the presence of those who love him? As a practical matter, what does He do?

Human beings aren’t teeth. A tooth can be thrown away, it doesn’t feel anything once pulled. A human cannot be thrown to eternal torment without there being a consequence, the consequence of most grievous injustice.

Humans are not teeth. They can choose whether they want to be rotten. And if they get “pulled” from Heaven for it, they cannot blame God. It is ultimate justice. God’s judgment is not arbitrary.

Then it is hell—at the very least a hell of boredom. Without progress, without change, there is no life and no desire for life.

Heaven is not a cessation of progress. It is the fulfillment of progress. Two different things.

-Peace

 

[Heathen_Dawn]

Robert in SD:

If you believe in an all-Good Creator, then you believe in a Creator that cannot tolerate evil.

No, that doesn’t follow.

What should your God do to those who choose evil?

Punish them to the extent of their crimes, and no more than that. No eternal hell, only a laundry room where the stained shirt is cleaned.

 

[flameburns623]

Several points to make:

First: sin–any sin–against an infinitely good God, and infinitely just God, etcetera has infinite consequences, is an infinite offense against the Infinite. An eternal Hell IS the just outcome of offense against such a God.

Second: Hell is not merely a place to which God sends a sinful creature: it is also where the sinful creature itself WANTS to go: sin wreaks havoc in the soul of human beings, puts us at absolute enmity with our Creator: we lose all desire for fellowship with Him and WANT to be removed so far from Him as possible. Hell is not simply a jail sentence imposed upon recalcitrant sinners: it is a relief and a mercy to those sinners, howeverso unpleasant it is. Fellowship with God would be an even more-unpleasant alternative.

 

[Heathen_Dawn]

flameburns623:

sin–any sin–against an infinitely good God, and infinitely just God, etcetera has infinite consequences, is an infinite offense against the Infinite.

Considering God is the only being we can never change, never damage, this claim is absurd.

An eternal Hell IS the just outcome of offense against such a God.

No it isn’t.

it is also where the sinful creature itself WANTS to go

Nonsense. No-one wants to be eternally tortured.

Hell is not simply a jail sentence imposed upon recalcitrant sinners: it is a relief and a mercy to those sinners, howeverso unpleasant it is.

It is a doctrine of blackmail with the sole function of maximising the number of adherents of the religion in question. Invention of men.

 

[fruitloops_10]

Im not catholic, but I am looking into it.
and even though im not catholic…i find this
catholic board helping me even more
Its a great opportunity to ask questions
about Jesus …and the pope too!

God Bless!

 

[dhgray]

fruitloops_10:

Im not catholic, but I am looking into it.
and even though im not catholic…i find this
catholic board helping me even more
Its a great opportunity to ask questions
about Jesus …and the pope too!

God Bless!

Welcome, We look forward to posting with you.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

**From Heathen Dawn: ** No, that doesn’t follow.

Is it your position, then, that in the afterlife good and evil will coexist together in harmony for etenrity? That does not follow? Nor is it consistent with your comment below.

Punish them to the extent of their crimes, and no more than that. No eternal hell, only a laundry room where the stained shirt is cleaned.

So you accept the doctrine of purgatory, but will not accept a doctrine that one who rejects God absolutely will be removed from God absolutely?

-Peace

 

[Heathen_Dawn]

Robert in SD:

Is it your position, then, that in the afterlife good and evil will coexist together in harmony for etenrity?

As per spiritualist teaching, I believe there are many levels in the afterlife, and like will be found with like. Other Wiccans believe in reincarnation, making this a moot point.

So you accept the doctrine of purgatory,

Exactly. Purgatory and Heaven. Nothing else.

but will not accept a doctrine that one who rejects God absolutely will be removed from God absolutely?

No, as I don’t believe there is anyone who could possibly reject God absolutely. Impossible. Even hardcore atheists lose their atheism and are filled with love for God upon coming to the afterlife. It is impossible for a human to absolutely reject the Creator, as every human has the essentia Dei in himself. This is not to say that we are Gods, but we are indeed God’s offspring.

 

[dhgray]

Heathen Dawn:

This is not to say that we are Gods, but we are indeed God’s offspring.

Are you saying that we are of the SEED of God?

 

[Church_Militant]

Missa:

I am very interested in converting - however my husband is extremely anti-Catholic! I have gone as far as attending RCIA for a couple of months until he asked me to quit going. Any prayers would be greatly appreciated!

Missa

You got it Missa… I promise.
Hang in there…maybe see the free courses that this website offers. They are very good. Great Actually! God Bless!
It’s The Catholic Home Study Service. www.amm.org/chss/chss.htm