I can't believe you all are not LDS(Mormon)!

[nebula]

once again the tired old sales pitch. it has been proven over and over again that mormonisn is NOT the “fastest growing religion” anywhere by any measure. pentecostals, SDA’s and many others are in front. what does that mean anyway? fastest growing must be true? that doesn’t seem to be the case. convert retention rates are abysmal for the LDS right now as well so the “growth” they have is really quite illusory. no one is joining “in droves” but those who are seem to be needy people desperately looking for some welfare assistance who leave once they get on their feet. Those who feel mormon claims credible fall mostly in the born into it category and tend to avoid any deep look into proving it’s claims. they stay safely within the realm of faith promoting rumors and revisionist history spun by the LDS propagandists.

your own example of the horse argument shows the proven facts that demonstrate the inaccuracies of the BoM. the FAIR and FARMS grasping at straws and jeff lindsays flights of fancy cannot overcome what is now obvious. Pre-columbian peoples were not of israelite origin, they came from asia. they didn’t write in reformed egyptian or an mid-eastern derived script. they wrote in pictographs developed over time from their Asiatic language roots. they did not have metal armor or weapons and they did not ride horses or chariots into battle. they didn’t have million man armies fighting in upstate new york, they didn’t ride submarines, weave linen, cultivate wheat or barley or domesticate honeybees. they didn’t have wine and they certainly didn’t have bibles.

Joseph Smith was a con man who is still fooling people today. this puts mormons in the same boat as SDA’s, JW’s and Islam.
Maybe that’s the fastest growing religion…“deceived by false prophets”

That’s right. Mormonism’s growth is nothing compared to the quick fire that Pentecostalism is, and besides, it is a slowing growth.

The problem with this whole “we don’t need any evidence, science and religion don’t go together” argument is that while there is a kernel of truth there, there should be some evidence considering hte many, many physical claims that Joseph Smith made. First he makes extraordinary claims with the BoM, with the Book of Abraham (translating that from funeral papyrii… really?), and a multitude of other physical claims (does Zelph ring a bell?). They are all over the place in church history. There should be something to back some of this up, and there isn’t. That should ring huge alarm bells in any reasonable person, it would be as if there was no evidence of any Israelite civilization in the Near East for a Bible believing person. That’s just too much.

True, requiring empirical evidence to prove every single claim is too much. Agreed. But there should be something, something to show that Joseph Smith wasn’t just a plain old con man because that is the most likely choice in this scenerio.

 

[zerinus]

Hahaha. I thought Islam was the fastest growing religion? Or Pentecostalism? I guess everyone gets to claim that! Anyway, I’m pretty much done with this argument, but just for clarification, I did say several posts ago that it is not actually about religion, but about what linguistically attestable. Many of the languages spoken of in the Bible have been found and documented, but if there were absolutely no evidence of them, and no evidence that they should have ever been where they are claimed to have been, then I would have to treat the passages dealing with them in the Bible as fiction, just as I treat the Mormon account of the languages of the Americas as fiction.

Mormonism is true, and I happen to know it.

By the way, as a result of our exchanges in this thread, I became interested in finding out more about you, so I went back and read most of your past posts, and replied to three of them. You will find them in these threads—in case you missed them:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=257371
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=252034&page=3

zerinus

 

[dzheremi]

Er…alright. I feel no need to respond to anything written in reply to me in those threads, as Prodigal Son1 already set you straight on what Anthon really believed about the so called “heiroglyphs” he was presented (he believed them to be false, as I do).

As for my father’s marriage to a Mormon convert, first of all, I was reporting what I personally witnessed in my own family, which I don’t think is anything to argue over, so I will not indulge you here out of respect for all parties involved. Second of all, if you had read my post carefully enough you would see that I did not “blame” the Mormons for their divorce, only stated that it was a factor, because it was. I’m not sorry to report that Mormonism can hurt people’s relationships with their family as much as it can help. If you can’t handle that, then don’t reply to posts that talk about it.

Quit trying to put words in my mouth… If you want to learn more about me, ask. Don’t comb over my old posts for things to distort for your own uses. I’m not out to get you. You shouldn’t need to distort anything I say.

 

[zerinus]

Er…alright. I feel no need to respond to anything written in reply to me in those threads, as Prodigal Son1 already set you straight on what Anthon really believed about the so called “heiroglyphs” he was presented (he believed them to be false, as I do).

Harris’s own story is actually as follows:

I went to the city of New York, and presented the characters which had been translated, with the translation thereof, to Professor Charles Anthon, a gentleman celebrated for his literary attainments. Professor Anthon stated that the translation was correct, more so than any he had before seen translated from the Egyptian. I then showed him those which were not yet translated, and he said that they were Egyptian, Chaldaic, Assyriac, and Arabic; and he said they were true characters. He gave me a certificate, certifying to the people of Palmyra that they were true characters, and that the translation of such of them as had been translated was also correct. I took the certificate and put it into my pocket, and was just leaving the house, when Mr. Anthon called me back, and asked me how the young man found out that there were gold plates in the place where he found them. I answered that an angel of God had revealed it unto him.

He then said to me, “Let me see that certificate.” I accordingly took it out of my pocket and gave it to him, when he took it and tore it to pieces, saying that there was no such thing now as ministering of angels, and that if I would bring the plates to him he would translate them. I informed him that part of the plates were sealed, and that I was forbidden to bring them. He replied, “I cannot read a sealed book.” I left him and went to Dr. Mitchell, who sanctioned what Professor Anthon had said respecting both the characters and the translation. Source

It is a case of whose story you choose to believe. I think that Harris’s story is the more believable one.

As for my father’s marriage to a Mormon convert, first of all, I was reporting what I personally witnessed in my own family, which I don’t think is anything to argue over, so I will not indulge you here out of respect for all parties involved. Second of all, if you had read my post carefully enough you would see that I did not “blame” the Mormons for their divorce, only stated that it was a factor, because it was. I’m not sorry to report that Mormonism can hurt people’s relationships with their family as much as it can help. If you can’t handle that, then don’t reply to posts that talk about it.

This is what you had actually said, which I had quoted and commented on:

I have seen these Mormon missionaries and their tactics at work up close. My father’s ex-wife became a Mormon shortly before the dissolution of their marriage, and actually, her conversion (from some sort of vague, nominally Christian belief) to Mormonism proved to be a big strain that actually helped to destroy their marriage. So much for “families being together forever” or whatever nonsense the LDS uses to hook people.

I will not put down Mormon missionaries even though they helped to destroy my family at one point, . . .

That to me reads like blaming Mormonism (and even the missionaries) for the breakdown of your father’s marriage. I don’t know why you would now want to deny it.

Quit trying to put words in my mouth… If you want to learn more about me, ask. Don’t comb over my old posts for things to distort for your own uses. I’m not out to get you. You shouldn’t need to distort anything I say.

I suggest you quit trying to put words on my mouth. I didn’t put any words in your mouth. I quoted what you had said. What is your problem?

zerinus

 

[dzheremi]

Sorry, but saying that the presence of the Mormons caused strain on the marriage isn’t “blame”, but recognizing that they (among many other factors) did help to weaken, rather than strengthen, the marriage bond.

As for “the Mormon missionaries helped destroy my family” - YES! Yes they did. Divorce destroys families, and so, as they played a part in wedging themselves between my father and his wife (example: calling on her and coming over when he wasn’t around, even after he had asked them not to because he was uncomfortable with their presence in his house), they did help to destroy my family, even if that wasn’t their original intent. Their desire to gain a convert to their religion was apparently more important to them than respecting the wishes of my father. How can I put it any other way? I saw it all happen. I myself asked them to go about their business in a way that was respectful to my father’s wishes. They didn’t.

THAT is my problem regarding this situation. I am absolutely done talking with you about this situation, and I would appreciate it if you would also leave it alone. Thank you.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

It is a case of whose story you choose to believe. I think that Harris’s story is the more believable one.

Ok, whether to take the word of a man who told his wife and sister-in-law he believed financing the BoM would be a financial windfall or believe a Professor who was concerned a poor farmer was being scammed? Let me see…

In any case, after his visit with Anthon, Harris was willing to mortgage his farm to publish the Book of Mormon, although it is also possible that his eagerness was based (as he boasted to his wife and sister-in-law) on his belief that the Book of Mormon would be a financial windfall.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Sorry, but saying that the presence of the Mormons caused strain on the marriage isn’t “blame”, but recognizing that they (among many other factors) did help to weaken, rather than strengthen, the marriage bond.

As for “the Mormon missionaries helped destroy my family” - YES! Yes they did. Divorce destroys families, and so, as they played a part in wedging themselves between my father and his wife (example: calling on her and coming over when he wasn’t around, even after he had asked them not to because he was uncomfortable with their presence in his house), they did help to destroy my family, even if that wasn’t their original intent. Their desire to gain a convert to their religion was apparently more important to them than respecting the wishes of my father. How can I put it any other way? I saw it all happen. I myself asked them to go about their business in a way that was respectful to my father’s wishes. They didn’t.

THAT is my problem regarding this situation. I am absolutely done talking with you about this situation, and I would appreciate it if you would also leave it alone. Thank you.

Dzheremi, I am sorry to hear what happened to your family. I’m not a Mormon, but I know many Mormons, including family/childhood friends going back over 40 years.

Mormons are consumed with statistics and reports. From what I have seen, the substance of any achievement is not nearly as important as the numbers. Everyone, including missionaries, or perhaps it would be more correct to say ESPECIALLY missionaries, are driven to achieve certain numerical goals and regular reports are mandatory. It’s likely that this is one reason there is such a huge membership retention problem ~ because the conversion process is so shallow ~ that and the fact that their theology is utterly preposterous.

I’m sorry that the peace of your family was affected negatively by what appears to be a numbers game on the part of the missionaries. I’m sure that their desire to achieve their goal was not nearly as important as the damage done. It is unconscionable that they would go against the express wishes of either of the adult members of the household.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

I have been a Mormon all my life and to this day I can’t believe you all are other religions! If you read the Book of Mormon you would truly see it is true. I don’t know why you all choose to read anti materials and listen to EXMormons.

I feel bad for those who have lost the true gospel but there is always time to come back. I have been reading posts for about 6 months and have decided to join. I have always been interested in the whole Idea people are Catholic because they seemed a bit messed up. I mean you bow down to a Pope. So very sad.

I was raised LDS my entire life with Mormons stretching back 5 generations on both sides of my family. I have never experienced such arrogance from a Mormon, which leads me to believe you are a troll.

I will however wait a bit longer to pass judgment (for I admit I’ve so far only read the initial post).

It might be proactive of you to heed the counsel of many LDS First Presidents of recent past, namely in evangelizing the world through LOVE.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

Is the following about a pope?
Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah! Jesus annointed that Prophet and Seer.Blessed to open the last dispensation, Kings shall extol him, and nations revere.

chorus: Hail to the Prophet, ascended to heaven! Traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain.
Mingling with Gods, he can plan for his brethren; Death cannot conquer the hero again.

Praise to his memory, he died as a martyr; Honored and blest be his ever great name!
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins, Plead unto heaven while the earth lauds his fame.

Great is his glory and endless his priesthood: Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom, Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven; Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice. Millions shall know “brother Joseph” again.

Nope.

I love this Mormon hymn. It’s got nearly everything: Ol’ Joe being “martyred” (as opposed to dying in a gunfight after swilling a bottle of wine) and ascending to heaven of his own power, promises that he will come again (just like Jesus!), the concept of blood atonement, polytheism, etc. The only thing it lacks is praise for Joe’s wife-swapping and adultery.

Aw come on! You should have posted the ORIGINAL “Praise to the Man”. You know, the pre-1930 version that stated Joseph’s Blood would “stain Illinois”. Isn’t the LDS PR department so efficient!

 

[RebeccaJ]

I was raised LDS my entire life with Mormons stretching back 5 generations on both sides of my family. I have never experienced such arrogance from a Mormon, which leads me to believe you are a troll.

I will however wait a bit longer to pass judgment (for I admit I’ve so far only read the initial post).

It might be proactive of you to heed the counsel of many LDS First Presidents of recent past, namely in evangelizing the world through LOVE.

five generations on one side of my family…are you descended from polygamists? if so, highly likely we’re related.lol. Half the state of UT are related to me in one way or other.

 

[dzheremi]

Dzheremi, I am sorry to hear what happened to your family…

Thank you, MelanieAnne. I appreciate your kind words.

The thing that gets me is that it didn’t really have to be this way. My father is a very lapsed Catholic (raised in the faith pre-Vatican II, but in his words “it never took”), and at the time I had no religion, so it’s not as though either of us would have tried to keep her from converting if that was what she felt God was calling her to do. It’s just that the missionaries (and the Mormon carpenter that was working on the house at the time, who originally began witnessing to her) went about it in such a disrespectful manner that it became a real problem. It’s a very sad situation, really. Sure, the Mormons got their convert, but at what price to all those that they could have also been good witnesses to? It does indeed seem to be purely a numbers game for some.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

Because as Whyme keeps telling us it is impossible for a person to be a jerk and a Mormon. Catholics on the other hand are, on top of being drunks and faithless Christians are also devious.

I almost forgot about him. It seems I need to scratch my first post about having never met an arrogant Mormon before.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

five generations on one side of my family…are you descended from polygamists? if so, highly likely we’re related.lol. Half the state of UT are related to me in one way or other.

Yes indeed! My maternal polygamist family were Mexican polygamists however (and only recently came to the US).

Amen to the Utah comment. I was born and raised here in California, so I was always surprised each summer when I’d go to Utah and meet other “distant cousins” of mine. It certainly makes finding a cute non-related date impossible. LOL

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes indeed! My maternal polygamist family were Mexican polygamists however (and only recently came to the US).

Amen to the Utah comment. I was born and raised here in California, so I was always surprised each summer when I’d go to Utah and meet other “distant cousins” of mine. It certainly makes finding a cute non-related date impossible. LOL

Yeah, I went to a family reunion once that was for all the descendants of one pioneer polygamists ancestor…that was the weirdest experience of my life to that point.

 

[mommyof4]

Something tells me this is either going to end up a really really short thread (because the OP will leave) or, it’s going to get really good and be very enlightening.

I think I think I may need to pop alot of popcorn so I can read through this one.

I was just thinking the same thing!

 

[zerinus]

As for “the Mormon missionaries helped destroy my family” - YES! Yes they did. Divorce destroys families, and so, as they played a part in wedging themselves between my father and his wife (example: calling on her and coming over when he wasn’t around, even after he had asked them not to because he was uncomfortable with their presence in his house)

This is not the Mormonism I know. Mormon Missionaries are instructed not to do that. In reality, they couldn’t even do that. The man is in charge of his house. If he doesn’t want to let them in, they can’t come in. Your dad couldn’t have been very insistent of them not to come into his house.

zerinus

 

[xixxvmcm85]

This is not the Mormonism I know. Mormon Missionaries are instructed not to do that. In reality, they couldn’t even do that. The man is in charge of his house. If he doesn’t want to let them in, they can’t come in. Your dad couldn’t have been very insistent of them not to come into his house.

zerinus

Besides, unless those missionaries were Sister missionaries, they wouldn’t be allowed to visit the wife without the husband present (unless the LDS church has changed that rule since I’ve left).

 

[dzheremi]

Zerinus, there is little more I can say on this issue. Please respect that I do not wish to further discuss my family with you. I respect the zeal with which you seek to defend your religion, but this is far outside your purview as it deals with events that you were not witness to, but I was. He told them “I do not want you guys to come here when I am not here.” Those are clear instructions. There is no need to press this point.

 

[pismopal]

I am reading this thread with such interest as I have been flumoxed for years over the ability of LDS to influence people. In that vein may I recommend a fascinating book entitled " The Mormon Murders" . I could google and find the authors name but so can you if interested. The LDS is gaga over historical documents that seem to back their claims and will go after them like a mouse to cheese. So do they desire books that cast the sect in a poor light for other reasons. The centerpiece is a Mormon who taught himself how to forge documents very convincingly. Its worth reading again and I am going to do so.
Note to Zerinus
You can always wrap a book in plain brown paper.

 

[xixxvmcm85]

I am reading this thread with such interest as I have been flumoxed for years over the ability of LDS to influence people. In that vein may I recommend a fascinating book entitled " The Mormon Murders" . I could google and find the authors name but so can you if interested. The LDS is gaga over historical documents that seem to back their claims and will go after them like a mouse to cheese. So do they desire books that cast the sect in a poor light for other reasons. The centerpiece is a Mormon who taught himself how to forge documents very convincingly. Its worth reading again and I am going to do so.
Note to Zerinus
You can always wrap a book in plain brown paper.

Though I have not read that book, I assume it’s about the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

With all due respect, claiming that the LDS church was some how “responsible” for the massacre is like claiming the Catholic church is responsible for the massacre of indigenous Americans at the hands of the conquistadors.

Indeed, the massacre was perpetrated by Mormons, but of all the evidence I’ve seen, little has surmounted its burden of proving that the LDS church itself (as an institution) was responsible for it. It’s very likely that Brigham Young (the LDS First President at the time) knew little to nothing of the ordeal until it was too late for him to stop it.

From my understanding, the LDS Bishop who in many ways was “responsible” for the massacre (by inciting the riot of the faithful to begin with) was excommunicated promptly.