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1beleevr
Guest
In this forum, are catholics allowed to be anti noncatholic? And be disrespectful, arrogant or demeaning?
I don't get it...if you are a non-Catholic Christian, then why aren't you a Catholic Christian?
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Janet1983
Guest
I did read through that list too just a minute ago… isn’t that the best opportunity ever for you to tell somebody with wrong ideas about the Catholic faith that it ain’t so?
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Janet1983
Guest
I was a Catholic for 24 years, before becoming a Protestant Christian (in a military Chapel). That was in 2007/2008.It takes time. I understand. I was a Protestant for 30 years, before converting to Catholicism. That was in 1985.
I stayed a non-practicing Catholic until the beginning of 2010 when my defection was finalized…
Time doesn’t only work in one direction.
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guanophore
Guest
Doki, you are creating false dichotomies. You are setting the graces received in baptism “against” the love and mercy of Jesus. The two are not contrary. Baptism is the manner in which Jesus instructed us to use, through which his love, grace, and mercy would flow. “Baptism…now saves you”. It is the expiating blood of Jesus shed on the cross that saves us. Baptism is the manner in which this grace is applied to us.
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JimmyH
Guest
I was drug into Catholicism by my parents till I was 17 and uselessly baptized as an infant, went to catholic school till the 11th grade, I think maybe what turned me off the most was my younger brother was an alter boy as was I and was fondled by our priest and caught doing it by a parishioner and the church did nothing about it, well not nothing they shunned myself and family, thats when I started to realize the Catholic church was condoning petaphilia.W-O-W! What a powerful, moving post! I have encountered many former catholics, who express similar sentiments! Was talking with a former catholic, who does street ministry, and outreaches for Christ, recently and he said something that I thought was odd; that he was catholic until he got saved???Why is it that former catholics feel so angry and betrayed by the church? Just wondering!
So I figured any organization that would sit back and watch this happen could not be in the truth.
And I am sure you will all have an excuse, maybe it was my 13 year old brothers fault for looking to sexy to the Homosexual priest of the holy Catholic church, who led us in prayer, who I confessed my child hood sins too
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JimmyH
Guest
You mean like Judas Iscariot that apostle?
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guanophore
Guest
One of the evidences of understanding is that you are able to articulate the opposite position. You do not seem to understand why Catholics baptize infants. It may be that your concept of original sin has departed from what the Apostles believed and taught.
Good idea!
Jesus gave us baptism as the normative means of being born again of water and Spirit. We can be confident that His saving grace flows through it, because He has promised this. For those that are unbaptized, we entrust them to the heart of a merciful God
who desires all to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the Truth.
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guanophore
Guest
I think you hit that nail on the head, Doki. Baptism, by joining us to Christ in HIs death and resurrection, breaks the bond of slavery to the sin nature. The child is then more able to grow up in the wisdom and fear of the Lord, because they are no longer enslaved to the sin nature.
Indeed, it is the sin nature that makes us self centered and manipulative to meet our wants and needs.
One cannot see the Kingdom unless one is born again.
Mary chose not to sin, just like we all can. It was easier for her because she did not have the sin nature. She did not have the struggle that St. Paul writes about in Rom. 7
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guanophore
Guest
There was more than dedication. Yes, He was dedicated and ransomed,since He was the firstborn, but circumcision is being brought into God’s covenant. Baptism replaced circumcision as the entrance into the New Covenant. We don’t wait for babies to give permission for the same reason Mary and Joseph did not wait.
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guanophore
Guest
That doesn’t make any sense! A person is not a Christian if they don’t believe in the Trinity!
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guanophore
Guest
Actually, we are born into world condemned already.
That is His decision to make, not ours.
Absolutely not.
Nothing unclean can enter heaven.
The baby is rejected already, because he is a son of Adam. God will have mercy upon those He will have mercy.
Baptism is guaranteed by His promise.
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JimmyH
Guest
Although it is true that babies are conceived tainted with original sin (Job 14:4; 15:14-16; Psalm 51:5; Proverbs 22:15; Romans 5:12) – and it is because of this that all of us suffer physical death – it is also true that Scripture recognizes that little children have a degree of innocence that distinguishes them from those of us who live longer
Despite the Bible’s teaching on original sin, it also says:
Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
Other Scriptures speak of us being judged according to our own misdeeds. And still others speak of being judged according to the light one has been given. Obviously, the very young would breeze through this judgment.
It is a divine principle that to whom much is given, much is required (Luke 12:48; John 15:22). Again, the very young do superbly by this spiritual measure. The contaminating effect of original sin is real but Christ died to undo that curse and to save not only those able to put their faith in him, but equally to save some who died too early to specifically believe in him.
We know by biblical revelation that salvation is through no one but Jesus (Acts 4:12) and no one can come to God except through him (John 14:6). We also know that the spiritual power of Jesus’ sacrifice is so mind-boggling that it reaches both forward and backward in time (Hebrews 9:25-27; Revelation 13:8) and extends beyond those able to consciously place their faith in him. The crowning proof of this biblical truth is that Old Testament saints will be in heaven (Luke 13:28; Hebrews 11:5) despite never specifically placing their faith in Jesus, nor knowing the details of his atonement. Does the atoning power of the cross likewise extend to those too young to consciously reject Christ or put their faith in him? Was Jesus hinting at this when he said of little children that “the kingdom of God belongs to such as these” (Mark 10:14
Jesus uttered the words just quoted when the disciples had tried to prevent mothers and fathers from bringing their little children to Jesus for a blessing. In the original Greek, Luke 18:19 specifically states that those brought to Jesus were babies and Mark 10:16 also indicates how small they were by saying “he took the children in his arms.”
It would be nice to make much of Jesus saying little children have angels (Matthew 18:10). Whilst this is quite possibly true from the moment of conception, in this particular instance Jesus seems to be speaking of those old enough to have at least rudimentary faith – “ . . . these little ones who believe in me . . .” (Matthew 18:6).
Deuteronomy 1:39 And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad – they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it.
Isaiah 7:16 But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right . . .
Jonah 4:11 But Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?
Matthew 18:3 And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. . . .”
Romans 9:11-12 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad – in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls – she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”
1 Corinthians 14:20 . . . In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults.
Perhaps the following is also pertinent:
Matthew 21:16 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise” (KJV)
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Jimmy_B
Guest
Wow, todd vetter didn’t last long… Prodigal Son1** and guanophore**, great Catholic responses…as usual… JimmyH and 1beleevr sure brought up some interesting opinions, which I will address when I have the time… Just wanted to let the relatively new-comers, onmyknees and LittleSoldier who I have high hopes for, that I’m following their posts… And, I like Zooey even if, he or she is a Methodist 
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More Catholics need to respond to JimmyH post (below).
.More Catholics need to respond to JimmyH post (below).
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Jimmy_B
Guest
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WetCatechumen
Guest
I was raised a proud “Protestant”, although what that means, I’m not quite sure.
My father is a heretic, as is my mother. My mother was raised Lutheran, and my father Episcopalian. They both “got saved” as part of the “Jesus movement” of the early 1970’s. They joined a “charismatic church” and were very involved, until they moved 2,000 miles, and joined a Calvary Chapel. Hence, I had a varied background.
I was always taught to believe in praying in tongues, only the bible, we’re saved by faith alone.
So, when I began to formulate my faith, I wasn’t Catholic for these reasons:
Mary as Mother of God
Praying to Saints
Transubstantiation
The whole Pope thing
Having to confess sins to a priest
Jesus not being enough
Apocryphal books
When I was sixteen or so, I actually began researching into these issues. Surprisingly, Catholic answers to simple questions were always the most succinct and scripturally based.
Enter the Mormons.
I was at a socially and emotionally vulnerable time, and many of their doctrines were appealing. I fell for the bait, and took Moroni’s challenge. I lost. However, my parents were so against the idea, that I was a bitter, essentially atheist, deranged, and unhealthy person for years, whilst believing in Mormonism whole heartedly, and not practicing.
Issues I had after being perverted by the Mormons:
Original sin - it’s not fair
Trinity - doesn’t make sense
Infant baptism - they don’t sin, why do they need it?
Immaculate Conception of BVM - why didn’t she sin? didn’t she need a savior? I didn’t realize that this view was 100% compatible with Mormonism.
Everything was vain and due to improper religious formation on the part of my parents. My father is a prayerful and holy man, but he is not theologically wise. He drifts from heresy to heresy.
But, anyways, it was mainly through just reading the early church fathers and the scriptures that I realized that the Catholics had the most simply, most reasonable answers.
Why not Orthodoxy? Who knows. A Catholic girl played the major role in my religious formation. Had she been Orthodox, I probably would have chosen their set of cherry-picked fathers concerning Roman primacy instead of our own set of cherry-pickings.
My father is a heretic, as is my mother. My mother was raised Lutheran, and my father Episcopalian. They both “got saved” as part of the “Jesus movement” of the early 1970’s. They joined a “charismatic church” and were very involved, until they moved 2,000 miles, and joined a Calvary Chapel. Hence, I had a varied background.
I was always taught to believe in praying in tongues, only the bible, we’re saved by faith alone.
So, when I began to formulate my faith, I wasn’t Catholic for these reasons:
Mary as Mother of God
Praying to Saints
Transubstantiation
The whole Pope thing
Having to confess sins to a priest
Jesus not being enough
Apocryphal books
When I was sixteen or so, I actually began researching into these issues. Surprisingly, Catholic answers to simple questions were always the most succinct and scripturally based.
Enter the Mormons.
I was at a socially and emotionally vulnerable time, and many of their doctrines were appealing. I fell for the bait, and took Moroni’s challenge. I lost. However, my parents were so against the idea, that I was a bitter, essentially atheist, deranged, and unhealthy person for years, whilst believing in Mormonism whole heartedly, and not practicing.
Issues I had after being perverted by the Mormons:
Original sin - it’s not fair
Trinity - doesn’t make sense
Infant baptism - they don’t sin, why do they need it?
Immaculate Conception of BVM - why didn’t she sin? didn’t she need a savior? I didn’t realize that this view was 100% compatible with Mormonism.
Everything was vain and due to improper religious formation on the part of my parents. My father is a prayerful and holy man, but he is not theologically wise. He drifts from heresy to heresy.
But, anyways, it was mainly through just reading the early church fathers and the scriptures that I realized that the Catholics had the most simply, most reasonable answers.
Why not Orthodoxy? Who knows. A Catholic girl played the major role in my religious formation. Had she been Orthodox, I probably would have chosen their set of cherry-picked fathers concerning Roman primacy instead of our own set of cherry-pickings.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Christ chose and apppointed him. Do we now find fault with Him?
I’ve responded as best as I can, considering you ask a question without explaining what you meant.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
There was an Apostolic succession in the New Testament, through the imposition of hands. I’m not specifically addressing your ‘bada bing, badabooms’, but not everyone who is ‘licensed’ through ‘man’s’ licensing procedures, is a pastor, or deacons, that have an appointment as set up by Christ, or the authority He chose and appointed over His Church.In an earlier post, you mentioned pastors, priests, deacons and others as those appointed. Since our church has a pastor, and deacons, well, bada bing, badaboom! And as far as “teaching” of others by ordinary Christians, such as you and I, is what I would call informal; you know Bible studie and such? I am not an ordained minister, but I have knowledge of things, that I can share with believers and non believers. to say that we cannot or do not have the Holy Spirit in us, is to say that one cannot have apersonal relationship with JesusAnd any Christian who loves God, knows that that is wwrong!
We’ve discussed the lack of scriptures that indicate just anyone appointed themself or others without the proper appointment as described by scriptures. We’ve also discussed how the multitudes were not commanded to ‘teach’ or ‘preach’ by Christ, as described in scriptures for those He chose and appointed.
It’s ironic, to say the least, to see people hold the Catholic Church to the letter of scriptures, according to a private interpretation, but do not feel the same obligation in their own ‘faith’ or ‘Church’.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
Janet,
Have you read through any other posts on this thread? Some very valid points have been raised, supported by scriptures. Those who ‘reject’ those arguments have presented no scriptural support for their view.
Why have you chosen to support a ‘list’ of objections and then support the list by ‘challenging’ someone to respond to it? Do you find the possibility of a list too much to respond too properly in a single thread, let alone a single post, and that might somehow validate the erroneous ‘opinions’ listed? It has that type appearance to it.
I am going to respond to that post, and it will probably take several posts to do so. Please notice the lack of scriptures to support the largest majority of that list. It is based on opinions. Opinions that are more than likely based on ‘misconceptions’.
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
God established an authoritative Church.
This is a good as place to start as any. Please provide the scriptures, you found, supporting the private interpretation of scriptures, and the scriptures that state the scriptures are the final authority?
Does God contradict Himself, ever? What about the graven images He ordered on the ark of the covenant? What about the graven images in the Temple that Solomon built, and God was pleased with?
I believe you are misunderstanding ‘having no other Gods’ before Him. The statues in the Catholic Churchs are NOT idols. They are reminders of those who dedicated their lives to HIM, as well as reminders of Christ Himself.
You need to qualify this ‘praying’. If you were asking her to pray for you, what is the problem? While there is but one mediator between God and man, we can easily find in scriptures that it is acceptable to ask others to pray for you. Catholics believe that those in heaven are eternally alive and there’s no difference in asking those Christians to pray for you, or asking someone on earth to pray for you.
It’s confusing that you ‘found’ these things. What I mean is, they should have been explained and not something you ‘found’.
Based on what scriptures? We see scriptures telling us that Mary was highly favored by God, full of grace and to be called blessed by ALL generations. We also know the designed ordered by God for the ark of the old covenant. Why would God want any less for the ark of the new and everlasting covenant, that would physically hold His ONLY begotten Son?
Did you think she was? Mary was fully human and not divine.
(Continued)
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Prodigal_Son1
Guest
That is scriptural. All believers were referred to as saints. Of course, let’s be careful not to generalize, as we know the Apostles (authors of scriptures specifically) warned us of ‘wolves in sheep’s clothing’. There are those who created dissensions and divisions. We know of ‘false teachers’ according to scriptures. We know of unlearned, unstable who wrested scriptures to their own destruction and the believers were warned not to be led aside by the error of the unwise.
Jesus is our only ‘High Priest’. Christ chose and appointed men over His Church, they in turn appointed others to Church. Scriptures are full of instructions of requirements for offices within the Church.
Well, this seems to be a generalized statement. What ‘rituals’ are you referring too?
A vague statement. What do you mean? I’ve never heard it spoken of as a sin?
The Pope is not always fallible. Christ, who most certainly is infallible, promised the Apostles to be with them and to have the Holy Spirit come to them and guide them in all things.
Scriptures?
Correct.
But what is faith without works?
Touched on when I explained asking Mary to pray for us. We do not ‘worship’ any but God. This is a misconception and I’m surprised that even an ‘ex-Catholic’ wouldn’t know better to make such a misinformed statement.
Use the final authority, the Bible, to show me what books are to be included in the ‘sole authority’?
Continued
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