I don't get it...if you are a non-Catholic Christian, then why aren't you a Catholic Christian?

[guanophore]

And what does this even prove? Was any of this of any relevance to one’s salvation?

Who left you in charge of determining what is relevant for salvation?

If by this you are trying to prove that there are things relevant to salvation not written in the Bible, then it is not a very good argument. Because all these ‘traditions’ mentioned by you aren’t relevant at all.

And what makes your assertion about this more valuable than the command of the Apostles that we preserve these Traditions?

It is important to note that one of their ‘explanations’ of Scriptures was that the Messiah would be a king that would free them from the Romans. Considering the fact that this was a tradition that developed over time and it was wrong,

No Cristian B, it is exactly true. Jesus Himself testified that He is a King (not of this world) and that to be free in Him is to be free indeed. All those that came to Him were free from the Romans.

It is not the Tradition (the Word of God) that develops over time, but our understanding of it. God revealed the Truth about His Messiah gradually over time.

It is true that the prevailing thought was that He would be a temporal king. However, their misunderstanding of His revelation does not mean there was something wrong with the revelation.

in the same way Catholics have their own traditions which were developed in time (not in the original, beginning) and that are wrong.

There are two kinds of traditions. There is the Word of God, which was deposited once for all to the Church, and does not “develop”, and there are customs (human traditions) that change from place to place and time to time. It is likely that you do not know the difference.

In the same way the Jews asked Jesus for His authority so do Catholics ask us for our authority.

I am sorry I don’t understand this at all.

Do you mean that Catholics ask you where you get your authority?

All authority comes from God. Jesus appointed authority in His Church. The Reformers separated themselves from this authority.

In the same way the Jews developed traditions over time so did the universal Roman body.

You seem to know very little about the Catholic faith, so you may not realize that it is not “Roman”.

In the same way those traditions of the Jews were wrong so is the universal Roman body’s. So if you read really closely this can be taken as proof against tradition.

Read what closely? Your baseless assertions and faulty reasoning?

Their preaching was based on what was written does, which is the Law and Prophets (and also Psalms or also called Writings).

The preaching of the Apostles was based upon what Christ taught them. They used the Scriptures to support what He taught. The Source of the Gospel is not the Scripture, but Christ. The Scripture reflects the Source.

Also, this still doesn’t prove that what they preached isn’t written now in the Bible.

Certainly some of it is there. The Bible was never intended to be a full compendium of the faith, nor was it to be separated from the Catholic Church that produced it.

This still doesn’t prove that they preached the Immaculate conception, assumption of Mary, supremacy of the Pope (or Peter), etc.

The assumption of Mary did not occur until most of the NT had been written. The immaculate conception is reflected in the scriptures, but was not defined by the early Church. Many of the doctrines of the Church were not defined until heresies arose. The Trinityy is another good example. It is a word you will not find in Scripture that, like the immaculate conception, was defined by the Church in response to heresies.

Because it is not a name that makes the church, but her doctrines. Even if it was called Catholic Church, that doesn’t mean it was the same Catholic Church we have today. It is not a name that makes the Church but her teachings.

I have to agree that it is the doctrine that defines the Church. The Catholic Church holds the same doctrines to day that were committed to her by the Holy Apostles in the first century.

That passage doesn’t say anything about the teachings of this ‘Catholic Church’. It doesn’t say it preached the Immaculate Conception, the assumption of Mary, and numerous other traditions of the Catholic Church we have today.

No, just like scripture does not contain the list of books that belong in it. This was developed by the Church centuries after the Apostles. Why do you accept your Bible, which came from the same source? Did you not know that the college of bishops that formed your NT believed and held all these other Traditions as well?

 

[larkin31]

Yes, we must question.

But the point of questioning is to come to an understanding of Truth.

Frequently, yes.

the topic I have been commenting on is the claim that “authority is everything in Christianity”. It seemed at least a highly ironic claim about the nature of the story of the life of Jesus.

 

[PRmerger]

Frequently, yes.

the topic I have been commenting on is the claim that “authority is everything in Christianity”. It seemed at least a highly ironic claim about the nature of the story of the life of Jesus.

Why ironic?

Didn’t he tell us to obey the commandments?

Didn’t he tell us to observe what the leaders told them to do?

 

[larkin31]

Why ironic?

Didn’t he tell us to obey the commandments?

Didn’t he tell us to observe what the leaders told them to do?

yes

he said that too

but he did not do that himself in all cases

another irony

 

[PRmerger]

Frequently, yes.

the topic I have been commenting on is the claim that “authority is everything in Christianity”. It seemed at least a highly ironic claim about the nature of the story of the life of Jesus.

Larkin, I’ve had many different conversations on the CAFs with atheists and non-Christians–all presenting a disparate position regarding Jesus.

So I’d like to ask what your position is regarding Jesus and Scripture. Clearly, you do not believe it is inspired…

Thus, when you say anything about Jesus, how is it you know this information? Is it from Scripture? If so, how do you take some fact about Jesus and accept *that *(i.e. “he rebelled against authority”), but reject another fact from Scripture about Jesus (i.e. he rose from the dead)?

 

[PRmerger]

yes

he said that too

but he did not do that himself in all cases

another irony

But he told us to, correct?

So as a parent when I tell my child, “You cannot drive” but I drive, am I being ironic?

 

[larkin31]

Larkin, I’ve had many different conversations on the CAFs with atheists and non-Christians–all presenting a disparate position regarding Jesus.

So I’d like to ask what your position is regarding Jesus and Scripture. Clearly, you do not believe it is inspired…

Thus, when you say anything about Jesus, how is it you know this information? Is it from Scripture? If so, how do you take some fact about Jesus and accept *that *(i.e. “he rebelled against authority”), but reject another fact from Scripture about Jesus (i.e. he rose from the dead)?

I no longer believe in God (agnostic)–but I did for more than two decades. Isn’t this obvious? I don’t hide it. Why would you ask this? I would not ask you the same question if you had read Huck Finn and demonstrated a working knowledge of it. You would not have to like or or believe in the actual existence of Huck Finn in order to have an informed and intriguing opinion on it. If, however, you had never read Huck Finn, then…

 

[PRmerger]

I no longer believe in God (agnostic)–but I did for more than two decades. Isn’t this obvious? I don’t hide it. Why would you ask this? I would not ask you the same question if you had read Huck Finn and demonstrated a working knowledge of it. You would not have to like or or believe in the actual existence of Huck Finn in order to have an informed and intriguing opinion on it. If, however, you had never read Huck Finn, then…

My point: if you say things like, “Jesus wouldn’t ___” it’s because the Scriptures told you that “Jesus wouldn’t ______”

But you also reject that the same Scriptures which tell you that “Jesus rose from the dead.”

Why do you take fact A and proclaim it, but reject fact B? On what information are you rejecting B but accepting A?

 

[larkin31]

But he told us to, correct?

So as a parent when I tell my child, “You cannot drive” but I drive, am I being ironic?

No, this case is very different and not ironic–not even to the child. There is no need for an analogy here; we can just discuss the actions of Jesus. If you want to say that he is exempt from his rule just because he is Jesus, well, fine, go ahead and say it. Maybe it is simply, “Do as I say, not as I do.”

Others seem to say here, “The rules don’t apply to God.” Maybe not. But that would have its own problems for apologists, I would imagine.

 

[PRmerger]

yes

he said that too

but he did not do that himself in all cases

another irony

And, just because I love how this verse is so clear, I’m going to post it (from Matt 23):

[SIGN]
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. **So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. **[/SIGN]

:extrahappy:

 

[PRmerger]

No, this case is very different and not ironic–not even to the child. There is no need for an analogy here; we can just discuss the actions of Jesus. If you want to say that he is exempt from his rule just because he is Jesus, well, fine, go ahead and say it. Maybe it is simply, “Do as I say, not as I do.”

Others seem to say here, “The rules don’t apply to God.” Maybe not. But that would have its own problems for apologists, I would imagine.

Can you give a specific example of the “actions of Jesus” that you’re talking about?

 

[larkin31]

My point: if you say things like, “Jesus wouldn’t ___” it’s because the Scriptures told you that “Jesus wouldn’t ______”

I don’t understand this.

But you also reject that the same Scriptures which tell you that “Jesus rose from the dead.”

Why do you take fact A and proclaim it, but reject fact B? On what information are you rejecting B but accepting A?

What scriptures do I reject? This discussion is about “authority.” I don’t recall rejecting any scripture about authority.

I am not discussing miracles, etc, here. I don’t debate them.

 

[larkin31]

Can you give a specific example of the “actions of Jesus” that you’re talking about?

I really should not have to explain the rebellion of Jesus to anyone who knows the NT. Can’t I just presume that you know of them? You think that Jesus was NOT a rebel to the religious authority of his day? I have never heard such a claim. Honestly. Never. So maybe here is the first.

He calls Pharisees “hypocrites”.

He intervenes with authorities to stop the stoning of the adulteress.

Jesus went among lepers and other “sick” and “unclean”

He had women prominent among his teachers

He healed on the Sabbath

He asked people to follow him rather than the established religious leaders

He overturned the tables during Passover

 

[PRmerger]

What scriptures do I reject?

Do you believe this one from Matthew?
*
“He is not here; he has risen, just as he said”*

 

[larkin31]

Do you believe this one from Matthew?
*
“He is not here; he has risen, just as he said”*

I am not interested in this. I’ll check again tomorrow. If you have answered on the topic of “authority” and the life of Jesus, then I will respond. Otherwise, others can take you up on these other topics if you would like.

 

[PRmerger]

So you were saying Jesus says do as I say, not as I do, huh?

He calls Pharisees “hypocrites”.

Yes, we can call the Pharisees “hypocrites” too.

He intervenes with authorities to stop the stoning of the adulteress.

I’m pretty sure we’re supposed to do that, too.

Jesus went among lepers and other “sick” and “unclean”

Yup, that, too.

He had women prominent among his teachers

Sr. Audrey taught me music in grade school.

And Sr. Mary Margaret was a principal!!

He healed on the Sabbath

Our priests get called to do anointings on the Sabbath.

He asked people to follow him rather than the established religious leaders

Yup.

He overturned the tables during Passover

Our priests have told us not to sell things inside the Church.

So, Larkin, where are the examples of Jesus telling us to do what he said but not what he did?

 

[PRmerger]

I am not interested in this. I’ll check again tomorrow. If you have answered on the topic of “authority” and the life of Jesus, then I will respond. Otherwise, others can take you up on these other topics if you would like.

LOL!

As you wish.

Again. Leaving the game.

 

[onmyknees]

Thanks. I read this. I don’t see how it addresses my point about authority. My point is that the story of Jesus IS the story of a man who, in part, rebels against the religious authority on earth established by God through Moses and the prophets. And that without this rebellion, there would be no life of Jesus. The life of Jesus demonstrates both the value and the necessity of questioning–and at times opposing–established religious authority, even that of one’s own religion.

Hi Larkin,

Jesus did not rebel against the authority established by God. He came to fulfill the new covenant that is prefigured in the old testament. Jesus said to them,“Truly, truly I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise.” John 5:19 Jesus was against the hypocrites who were practicing the law. He gave authority to Peter.“I will give you the keys of the kingdom, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” Matt 16:19

He also gave authority to all the apostles. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

 

[Jimmy_B]

…I don’t see how it addresses my point about authority… .

Authority of the Catholic Church

---

Matthew 16:17,18
Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 18:17,18
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”
John 20:21-24
(Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained…”
1 Corinthians 11:23-28
For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup.
Luke 10:16
“Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”
　
SAINT IRENAEUS (115 AD)
Bishop of Lyons and Father of the Church

Early Christian writings of Saint Irenaeus
　
Book V.
“…Then I have pointed out the truth, and shown the preaching of the Church, which the prophets proclaimed (as I have already demonstrated), but which Christ brought to perfection, and the apostles have handed down, from whom the Church, receiving [these truths], and throughout all the world alone preserving them in their integrity (bene), has transmitted them to her sons.”

 

[Jimmy_B]

Saint Ignatius Bishop of Antioch (50 to between 98 and 117 AD)

Smyrnæans
Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop

“…wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church”