I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

[reen12]

It seems you are proclaiming a works obedience righteousness gospel to me.

Correct.

Catholicism has a ‘works’ mindset - so deeply woven
into it’s theology of an ‘economy’ of salvation, and a Treasury of Merit -
that this mindset might as well be set in large neon lights:

“Works theology. Jesus wasn’t enough.”

How anyone could read the letters of Paul and
come away accepting an ‘economy of salvation,’
is utterly beyond me. On the other hand, Paul
seems to be of two minds - about all of this.
Next thing you know, he turns around and talks of
“Work out your salvation with fear and trembling.”
[Fear and Trembling being the title of a work by
Søren Kierkegaard.]

The concept that one might obey - out of both love
and gratitude, for so good a Savior, is lost - in a
myriad array of works to be done, in ‘cooperating’
in the ‘work of our salvation.’

The only happy note, in all of this, is that God is, no doubt,
understanding, about such a ‘works’ mindset.

reen12

 

[reen12]

Leave it to human beings to take a straight-forward offer of redemption,
and turn it into a decathlon of events…termed ‘works.’
{St. Paul comes in for some criticism, here, for he
proferred that silly image of ‘I have run the race.’}

And here I was - thinking that Jesus came to save those who
were down and out, in life, or those whom life had done a job on.
A message of hope and love and good cheer, for hearts
which had little of that in their lives - life having used them like a trampoline.

James, of course, took pains to dispel the notion of being baptized -
and then not lifting a finger to help another, while considering oneself ‘saved.’

In point of fact:

Those who are not sturdy [as was Paul] - whom life has mugged in some fashion -
will find that the God of Israel will come and find them - where they have dropped out of the race, in exhaustion -and He will pick them up and carry them across the Finish Line.

That, Paul, is a God of love - and not the Official Referee Whom you would make of Him -
checking His stopwatch, as one comes hurtling toward the tape.

God loves His little Tiny Tims, and He will help them - while the strong and sturdy burst past them, breaking the tape at the Finish Line.

“Works,” by any other name…remain ‘works.’

reen12

 

[reen12]

If I ever come to accept Jesus of Nazareth as a God/man,
I shall surely become an evangelical.

It brings cheer, to think of evangelicals - zooming around the
globe - wanting to share the good news, just as did the
early Christians. Evangelicals really do believe that Jesus
was and is, ‘good news.’ Perhaps that’s why the evangelicals
are making inroads, as they are. People can sense the same
thing that people sensed…in the early followers of Jesus.
“We have good news!” It’s irresistable. “What good news?” bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

reen12

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

IV. Jesus’ Teaching on Losing Salvation
Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.

There is no guarantee the Pope will not turn into a lizard - but I don’t think we need take that hypothesis seriously ​

A passage which points to Jesus’ deity is not negated by one which speaks of His humanity - any more than Iraq is not a country because it is inhabited: “being inhabited” & “being a country” are different qualities, but not mutually exclusive qualities. Statements that predicate qualities X & Y of entity A, are not like trains heading for a smash with one another - they are like size & shape: qualities related to each other only by their relation to a third thing. They are not mutually exclusive. Neither is human freedom & human will in its relation to God - their reality is not hindered or smothered by God’s, because God is not the same in being as those things, which are created things.

Matt. 7:21 - all those who say “Lord, Lord” on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.

They are reprobate. The condemnation of the reprobate =///= the condemnation of the elect.​

This sort of approach, if used against us, would say that because a verse is about the BVM, there is therefore no basis in the Bible for the Mass. That a passage is about X, is no objection to the presence elsewhere of passages about Y. This is really not rocket science

Matt. 12:30-32 - Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against Him, therefore (the Greek for “therefore” is “dia toutos” which means “through this”) blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus’ grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives.

The P of TULIP is about exactly that. Perseverance is part of Reformed teaching. It is opposed to it in the same way as the sacraments are opposed to the grace of Christ: not at all - it is part & parcel of TULIP, not an objection to it.​

BTW, perseverance without preservation is as impossible as a triangle with 2 sides: TULIP is mere nothingness if God is not everywhere & always its Cause & Support & Strength. It is infallibly certain to be misunderstood if it is treated as what man alone does. Nothing could be more absurdly nothing than man, No one could be more solidly Real & Almighty than God. “All flesh is grass”, dust, dust and ashes - God is alone strong. That’s not Calvinism, it’s Catholicism as well. The sooner all tosh about the greatness of man without God is forgotten, the better. Calvinists are protected against glorifying man by their Augustinianism - Molinism infects Catholic thought, so we are more in danger of secularism in that respect. Worse (if possible !), this means that we are the true authors of our salvation. That is pure naturalism - it is not Christianity in any form at all, but self-salvation from start to finish. The implications are fatal to anything like Christianity - Christ becomes a needless distraction, an obstacle to salvation. If we can save ourselves, we need no Christ: He becomes a waste of time. Why bother with Christ, when we have salvation to attend to ? That is the logic of this

For something better, read Bunyan - he devotes 224 pages to John 6.37-44.

John 6:39 - Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.

See above​

John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person “continues” to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.

Calvinists know this, & make it far clearer than we do.​

John 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father “draws” him. This “drawing” is an ongoing process.

“Continuous” =//= “able to fail”​

John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, “no one shall snatch them out of my hands,” He does not mean we can’t leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.

This is the Untrustworthy Christ again, the Saviour Whose Yes is No & His No Yes. If He meant that, He was useless at making it clear. You’re reading in what has no place there. Christ the Useless is not a Christ Who can be preached, because He leaves us to save us.​

Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).

The lampstands = churches (as Rev.1 says explicitly); not “place in heaven”. Changing what the text means is no way to refute an interpretation of it. Nor are we told that church had been predestined to salvation. Serious sin is not impossible to the elect - Calvinism does not teach, but rejects, all doctrines of “sinless perfection”​

more…

 

[Reformed]

Hence, why the Catholic Church is not apostate!
God gave us a Church and entrusted the continuation of it in the hands of people who would not apostate.
God would be a liar if this were any other way.

Slightly off topic…but…I could not resist!

Are you saying once you are a member of the Catholic Church it will be impossible to apostate? Can I please join your OSAS Catholic Church now…sign me up!

 

[Reformed]

I think you miss my point.

I am trying to analyze the plain English meanings of the words in this verse. I have never seen the verb “snatch” used when the subject and the object are the same. Maybe you have, but I don’t think of that verb in this way.

Therefore, according to the plain English meanings of the words in this verse, the case where the subject and the object are the same really does not seem to be applicable when the verb “snatch” is used.

In other words, I can not tell from this verse rather it is possible or impossible for me to walk away as a believer from the Father’s hand.

As far as the questions you ask, this verse also does not address them. However, I personally try to avoid questions “Why would God…” because from my vantage point God does (and fails to do) quite a few things that does not make sense to me.

Do you think God is sovereign over our own apparent free will to apostate? I really believe Scripture bears testimony that God is much greater than us, and by His blood bought grace, he perserves us to the glory of His amazing sustaining grace. Does that compel us to love God even greater? God saves us from Himself (His wrath) and ourselves (inclination to apostate). There is no boasting in self to sustain ourselves, because God is the author, sustainer and finisher of our Faith according to the testimony of Holy Scripture!

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I thank my God every time I remember you. In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. - Phil 1

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

…the last bit…

Rev. 3:4 - in Sardis, Jesus explained that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.

Calvinists are well aware Christians sin. It is no objection to TULIP, in any of its parts.​

Rev. 3:5 - Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice.

How is an assurance of salvation a denial of perseverance ?​

Rev. 3:11 - Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown of salvation and lose it.

He does not teach any such thing - a warning against rejection is a defence against it, not a denial of it.​

Rev. 13:10; 14:12 - we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.

Encouragement is a defence, as above​

Rev. 21:7 - we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus.

See preceding​

Rev. 22:19 - we can have a share in the tree of life in God’s holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.

Some can =/= the elect can​

Conclusion: Christians can easily lose their salvation if they do not live out God’s commandments.

Conclusion: the counter-objections leave TULIP unscathed & Christ as altogether Trustworthy. And, reading what Calvinists say in reply to objections is vital to understanding what they believe. Otherwise the same straw men will for ever raise their heads.​

Why is God’s infallible protection of His own such a threat ? It should be extremely Good News - so why is it not ?

 

[Reformed]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed
Please try to go to bible.com and do a word search on “repentance”. I think Scripture reveals something quite different than your answer. On the same idea, why was Peter able to know that Jesus was the Christ?

Because he believe. he could have if he wanted to deny it but he didn’t. He had a free will. Scripture shows that he was not always perfect. Even Paul extort him for not following what he preached and he corrected Peter.

It seems you were unwilling to search the Scriptures to find the answer to my question. That’s so Catholic…just kidding. Please consider looking at the Scriptures; it will make our game more interesting!

Acts 17:11 NIV (edited)

Now Manny was of more noble character than the other Catholics of CFA for he received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

 

[With_Questions]

Do you think God is sovereign over our own apparent free will to apostate? I really believe Scripture bears testimony that God is much greater than us, and by His blood bought grace, he perserves us to the glory of His amazing sustaining grace. Does that compel us to love God even greater? God saves us from Himself (His wrath) and ourselves (inclination to apostate). There is no boasting in self to sustain ourselves, because God is the author, sustainer and finisher of our Faith according to the testimony of Holy Scripture!

Ephesians 2:8-9

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I thank my God every time I remember you. In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. - Phil 1

This may of may not be true, depending on what the rest of the Scriptures teach. I personally am undecided on the whole Calvinism / Arminianism thing with my only concerns about being extreme on either side of this.

My only point concerns what precisely is taught and is not taught by the subject Scripture verse under discussion.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I copy and paste it from Scripture Catholic which gives summary that OSAS is against Scripture.

I wrote all my comments in both posts myself. That site appears to have a very - no, very very very - poor understanding of Calvinism It’s abysmal. Nor is it the first time a Catholic source has posted irrelevant tosh to refute Calvinism ​

I’m delighted to know you didn’t write that post. You’ve been very badly let down

Obedient is out of love for God. Jesus said, “If you love me, obey my commandments.” I recall St. Paul himself said, "“To work out your own salvation with fear and trembling?” (Phil. 2:12)

You might ponder why St. Paul made such statement. If he did taught eternal security, this verse and many verse like it would contradict the concept of OSAS. I do not think St. Paul lies here.

I’m not reject God’s promised. I believed everything what he has taught and done. A human being has a free will to accept God or reject him. A person who sins rejects God and separate himself until he repents and is sorrowful for his sins.

Jesus when he first proclaim his kingdom, he said, “Repent and Kingdom of heaven is at hand.” In Acts, Peter said, " “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”

Peter nor Jesus nor the other Apostles did not “PICK and CHOOSE” one word. Conversion requires repentance for your sins, be baptized." You cannot pick and chose Biblical verses to fit the doctrine of Eternal Security.

Calvinists are well aware of all the objections ​

 

[sandusky]

With Questions:

I think you miss my point.

I am trying to analyze the plain English meanings of the words in this verse. I have never seen the verb “snatch” used when the subject and the object are the same. Maybe you have, but I don’t think of that verb in this way.

Therefore, according to the plain English meanings of the words in this verse, the case where the subject and the object are the same really does not seem to be applicable when the verb “snatch” is used.

The statement is comprehensive and not limited to one word.

In the preceding verses concerning His sheep, Jesus states: "He knows His sheep (all of them), and they know and follow Him (continuously);” He further states that He ”gives eternal life to them (present, continuous, unconditional), and His sheep will never perish, nor can anyone remove them from His hand.”

In v29, He continues: "the Father is greater than all (“all” would include His sheep), and no one (“no one” would also include His sheep), is able to “snatch” them away from the Father.” (Speaks to the lack of ability of anyone to remove the sheep from His or the Father’s hand).

So no one (a universal negative) is able to snatch any sheep from either the Son’s, or Father’s hand. Jesus continues with the certainty of the disposition of His sheep by adding: "I and the Father are one,” they are one in essence, and, in context, they are one with respect to the final disposition of the sheep given by the Father to the Son—they will never perish v28.
With Questions:

In other words, I can not tell from this verse rather it is possible or impossible for me to walk away as a believer from the Father’s hand.

They won’t.

 

[Reformed]

This may of may not be true, depending on what the rest of the Scriptures teach. I personally am undecided on the whole Calvinism / Arminianism thing with my only concerns about being extreme on either side of this.

My only point concerns what precisely is taught and is not taught by the subject Scripture verse under discussion.

Have you considered studying the issue from a God-centered perspective rather than a man-centered perpspective? How perfect and effectual was the work of Christ on behalf of sinners? How glorious is God if Christ came to this sin cursed world to suffer and die to save the entire world, but Christ was not able to accomplish that mission? Please consider John chapter 6 and Jesus said that He would save ALL that the Father gave Him to save perfectly. That is perfection of a glorious and amazing God worthy of all of our praise, worship, adoration. Christ saved me in-spite of myself…what a rescue mission!

 

[tGette]

Are you saying once you are a member of the Catholic Church it will be impossible to apostate? Can I please join your OSAS Catholic Church now…sign me up!

Why would Jesus make such a precious promise if He thought we could snatch ourselves from His hand and His Father’s hand? Why would God adopt you into His family and let you apostate? For God knows all things beforehand, and would have no reason to adopt someone who would later apostate. That would make God a liar in regards to the OP Scriptures.

Make sure we read that quote again! (Above…just in case anyone was wondering!)

So…using your line of reasoning:
Why would Jesus make a promise that His Church would be safe from the hands of evil (I am paraphrasing…) if He thought that it was going to take 1,500 years for it to finally start being true?
Why would God go through all this trouble, just to let His Church apostatize?
(Of course, individuals may…but the Church…never!)
God would have no reason to adopt people to continue His Church just to let the Church apostatize.

Anyone who has apostatized has left the Church.

I like your rebuttal though!

 

[Reformed]

Make sure we read that quote again! (Above…just in case anyone was wondering!)

So…using your line of reasoning:
Why would Jesus make a promise that His Church would be safe from the hands of evil (I am paraphrasing…) if He thought that it was going to take 1,500 years for it to finally start being true?
Why would God go through all this trouble, just to let His Church apostatize?
(Of course, individuals may…but the Church…never!)
God would have no reason to adopt people to continue His Church just to let the Church apostatize.

Anyone who has apostatized has left the Church.

I like your rebuttal though!

Maybe we can get an LDS Christian to answer your question. Any Mormons want to teach us about apostasy, extra-biblical revelation, and the real apostolic succession? I’m just kidding.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

The statement is comprehensive and not limited to one word.

In the preceding verses concerning His sheep, Jesus states: ”He knows His sheep (all of them), and they know and follow Him (continuously);” He further states that He ”gives eternal life to them (present, continuous, unconditional), and His sheep will never perish, nor can anyone remove them from His hand.”

In v29, He continues: ”the Father is greater than all (“all” would include His sheep), and no one (“no one” would also include His sheep), is able to “snatch” them away from the Father.” (Speaks to the lack of ability of anyone to remove the sheep from His or the Father’s hand).

So no one (a universal negative) is able to snatch any sheep from either the Son’s, or Father’s hand. Jesus continues with the certainty of the disposition of His sheep by adding: ”I and the Father are one,” they are one in essence, and, in context, they are one with respect to the final disposition of the sheep given by the Father to the Son—they will never perish v28.

They won’t.

LTNS ​

There is something else, that AFAICS re-inforces John 10 - apologies if you’ve heard it : as in OT times one of the standard metaphors for kings was to call them shepherds, this may be part of the meaning of the passage - so that Jesus is giving His royal word that He will protect His own. This suggestion - if correct - would fit with the royal character of His Messiahship, & with a great deal in the NT. Kings have secrets, & His Identity & Origin are often presented as a secret, in John not least. ISTM there is a good Biblical case for the importance of the idea of Jesus as King as a major theme in the NT Even the entry into Jerusalem on a donkey recalls 1 Kings 1.34 - it is an assertion of His Kingship.

 

[tGette]

Maybe we can get an LDS Christian to answer your question. Any Mormons want to teach us about apostasy, extra-biblical revelation, and the real apostolic succession? I’m just kidding.

Thanks for the advice!
That yellow font hurts my eyes!

I need to bow out…I have been kind of derailing this thread.

 

[Reformed]

Thanks for the advice!
That yellow font hurts my eyes!

I need to bow out…I have been kind of derailing this thread.

Maybe God is using this thread to transform you into a Protestant.

I found this on your personal site: Interest: Finding the Will of God in my life.

Here is the will of God in your life…

The will of God in your life is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever (1 Cor 10:31).

 

[With_Questions]

Have you considered studying the issue from a God-centered perspective rather than a man-centered perpspective?

I have actually had the thoughts that the Calvinism side looks at the looks at the question from the perspective of an eternal, omniscient, omnipotent God while the Arminianist side looks at the same questions from the perspective of man.

However, I also have observed that I can find both perspectives in Scripture. So therefore, I have come to believe that in a sense both perspectives are valid and true. Perhaps different senses, but equally valid senses.

However, I have not yet found a way to put both senses together in such a way that I feel comfortable does not minimize one perspective or the other.

 

[Reformed]

I have actually had the thoughts that the Calvinism side looks at the looks at the question from the perspective of an eternal, omniscient, omnipotent God while the Arminianist side looks at the same questions from the perspective of man.

However, I also have observed that I can find both perspectives in Scripture. So therefore, I have come to believe that in a sense both perspectives are valid and true. Perhaps different senses, but equally valid senses.

However, I have not yet found a way to put both senses together in such a way that I feel comfortable does not minimize one perspective or the other.

Thanks for your honesty. All great biblical truths have great tensions. Do you think there is room for two sovereigns in the universe? Can God be sovereign in salvation at the same time of allowing man to be sovereign in salvation? I believe God saves sinners for His own good pleasure, His own glory, and His own name sake. Have you wrestled much with Romans chapter 9 for starters?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Maybe God is using this thread to transform you into a Protestant.

That’s legible if the text is covered with a cursor - but not otherwise ​

**Is this really good foir the eyes ? - it’s impossible to cotrret **