I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

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I was thinking of those people who ask the same questions - on OSAS, say - as though their objections to it were valid. Often, they aren’t. The problem is that a poor argument for the Petrine Primacy, or for transubstantiation, or whatever it may be, puts the doctrine being advocated in a very poor light 😦 Upsetiing a bad argument for OSAS or TULIP or the like does no harm to OSAS or TULIP - it does make the critics of OSAS or TULIP look ignorant, as well as the other things I mentioned. And that is very harmful. It reflects extremely badly on Catholics, & on Catholicism, if we argue against positions that people do not hold. It’s inexcusable.​

Don’t people we debate deserve intelligent & well-informed arguments ? Caricaturing people’s beliefs*** when we are perfectly able to avoid*** doing so is laziness; it’s immoral. If that is what passes for intelligent Catholic thinking, we are in dire trouble. Shoddy arguments & specious reasoning should be avoided like the plagues they are. So it’s just as well that our guarantee is not our very limited & sadly fallible reasoning power, but Christ Himself. But to commend our Faith to others, we need to be able to meet questioners where they are, for proclamation is often not enough - & commending what we hold to be true usually entails being able to reason convincingly.

You might be surprised 🙂 - Anglicans have a long & distinguished history of studying & editing the Fathers. To the great advantage of others, such as Catholics. (Which is one reason why dumping on other Churches is not a terribly good idea:​

Things that make you go HUH?

If not having the desire to learn 10,000 views on Christianity makes me lazy, then I guess I’m lazy. That one paragraph was the same as you had in the other post:shrug:

SD
 
If ye can find a moment in between patting each other on the back and answer a few posts you’ve ignored above; Catherine S for example as well as my own, maybe Gottle will answer it for you.

Catherine wants to know, reformed, if you are a sheep or a goat? Thanks.
LOL…well only God knows. I think I am more of a wild boar.

http://www.americanbeautybordercoll...pond/wolf-in-sheeps-clothing.jpg.w180h213.jpg

Was Martin Luther and wolf in Sheep’s clothing, or a servant of our Triune God?
 
…but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” - John 10

Paul taught what our Lord Jesus taught. Let’s continue on the same issues, but be nice. 🙂

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. - Apostle Paul

http://www.christcenteredmall.com/teachings/armor/sword.jpg
Yup. No one will “snatch” them out of his hand. That doesn’t mean that we can’t willing leave.
 
Yup. No one will “snatch” them out of his hand. That doesn’t mean that we can’t willing leave.
Why, are you stronger than our Triune God? Why, are you sovereign over God? Please reflect on this truth:

26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because [6] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - Rom 8
 
Yup. No one will “snatch” them out of his hand. That doesn’t mean that we can’t willing leave.
Those who are Christ’s will never leave Him.

The statement in Jn 10 is comprehensive and not limited to one word.

In the preceding verses concerning His sheep, Jesus states: "He knows His sheep (all of them), and they know and follow Him (continuously);” He further states that He ”gives eternal life to them (present, continuous, unconditional), and His sheep will never perish, nor can anyone remove them from His hand.”

In v29, He continues: "the Father is greater than all (“all” would include His sheep), and no one (“no one” would also include His sheep), is able to “snatch” them away from the Father.” (Speaks to the lack of ability of anyone to remove the sheep from His or the Father’s hand).

So no one (a universal negative) is able to snatch any sheep from either the Son’s, or Father’s hand. Jesus continues with the certainty of the disposition of His sheep by adding: "I and the Father are one,” they are one in essence, and, in context, they are one with respect to the final disposition of the sheep given by the Father to the Son—they will never perish v28.
 
Why, are you stronger than our Triune God? Why, are you sovereign over God? Please reflect on this truth:

26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because [6] the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, [7] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. - Rom 8
And thus you deny free will and make salvation into an act of divine rape.
 
Those who are Christ’s will never leave Him.

The statement in Jn 10 is comprehensive and not limited to one word.

In the preceding verses concerning His sheep, Jesus states: "He knows His sheep (all of them), and they know and follow Him (continuously);” He further states that He ”gives eternal life to them (present, continuous, unconditional), and His sheep will never perish, nor can anyone remove them from His hand.”

In v29, He continues: "the Father is greater than all (“all” would include His sheep), and no one (“no one” would also include His sheep), is able to “snatch” them away from the Father.” (Speaks to the lack of ability of anyone to remove the sheep from His or the Father’s hand).

So no one (a universal negative) is able to snatch any sheep from either the Son’s, or Father’s hand. Jesus continues with the certainty of the disposition of His sheep by adding: "I and the Father are one,” they are one in essence, and, in context, they are one with respect to the final disposition of the sheep given by the Father to the Son—they will never perish v28.
Can I ask if you are a sheep or a goat? Thanks.
 
Those who are Christ’s will never leave Him.

The statement in Jn 10 is comprehensive and not limited to one word.

In the preceding verses concerning His sheep, Jesus states: "He knows His sheep (all of them), and they know and follow Him (continuously);” He further states that He ”gives eternal life to them (present, continuous, unconditional), and His sheep will never perish, nor can anyone remove them from His hand.”

In v29, He continues: "the Father is greater than all (“all” would include His sheep), and no one (“no one” would also include His sheep), is able to “snatch” them away from the Father.” (Speaks to the lack of ability of anyone to remove the sheep from His or the Father’s hand).

So no one (a universal negative) is able to snatch any sheep from either the Son’s, or Father’s hand. Jesus continues with the certainty of the disposition of His sheep by adding: "I and the Father are one,” they are one in essence, and, in context, they are one with respect to the final disposition of the sheep given by the Father to the Son—they will never perish v28.
And, thus, you still deny free will and turn salvation into divine rape.
 
Great, you’re prejudged, saves time.

31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.

Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink?

These sheep did not know - they themselves did not consider themselves to be sheep.
 
Great, you’re prejudged, saves time.

31 And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty. 32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him, and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.

Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink?

These sheep did not know - they themselves did not consider themselves to be sheep.
LOL.

The passage has been known for 2,000 years now, and yet, you take the literalist view.

Those who are doing those things now, know what they’re doing, and are able to apply the passage to what they do.
 
LOL.

The passage has been known for 2,000 years now, and yet, you take the literalist view.

Those who are doing those things now, know what they’re doing, and are able to apply the passage to what they do.
Gosh! so you have already judged yourself to be on His right hand.
How on earth did you get that job, Sandusky. Was it advertised.
Situation Vacant:
Son of man in his Majesty
  • to sit upon the seat of his majesty - Apply within.
 
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Thing:
Gosh! so you have already judged yourself to be on His right hand.
**Ephesians 2:4-6

4 But God…made us alive together with Christ…and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus**So close, and yet, so far you are.
 
And thus you deny free will and make salvation into an act of divine rape.
Isaiah 5:20

Woe to those who call evil good
and good evil,
who put darkness for light
and light for darkness,
who put bitter for sweet
and sweet for bitter!

Romans 9

God’s Sovereign Choice

9:1 I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, [1] my kinsmen according to the flesh. 4 They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. 5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, [2] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,

“Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’
and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’”
26 “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’
there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel [3] be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, 28 for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” 29 And as Isaiah predicted,

“If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah.”

Israel’s Unbelief

30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness [4] did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, 33 as it is written,

“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
 
Ephesians 2:4-6

4 But God…made us alive together with Christ…and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ JesusSo close, and yet, so far you are.
Know you not that they that run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize? So run that you may obtain.

…run that you may obtain… …run …run… little one…
 
Know you not that they that run in the race, all run indeed, but one receiveth the prize? So run that you may obtain.

…run that you may obtain… …run …run… little one…
Please consider the Scriptures. The Apostle who exhorts us to run the race to win had much more to say.

1 Corinthians 15:10

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.
 
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