"I had an abortion" fitted T-shirt

[Mamamull]

The NY Times article really hit me hard. The woman knows she killed two babies. Her boyfriend knows she killed his two babies. The doctor wouldn’t let the father watch him kill the babies. The woman hasn’t married but has children by this man – OK she isn’t 16 and it wasn’t a pickup, she is still an unwed mother sacramentally speaking.

I just spent one of my two days each year where I allow myself to be sad and miss Claire. 8/13 is her deathday and like her birthday is part of the parental heart. I don’t know how to explain the way I feel on this day – I don’t just feel sorry for myself, but like remembering the birth of child with its joy and elation, I have the counterpart, too. An emoticon for a sword through a heart or a heart with a crown of thorns would have been my choice to to illustrate.

For those of us who have literally begged our children to breathe, a mother who selfishly killed two of her children and has to tell the world is just so sad.:crying:

Lord have mercy on us all.

Mamaull

 

[aimee]

Mamamull:

The NY Times article really hit me hard. The woman knows she killed two babies. Her boyfriend knows she killed his two babies. The doctor wouldn’t let the father watch him kill the babies. The woman hasn’t married but has children by this man – OK she isn’t 16 and it wasn’t a pickup, she is still an unwed mother sacramentally speaking.

I just spent one of my two days each year where I allow myself to be sad and miss Claire. 8/13 is her deathday and like her birthday is part of the parental heart. I don’t know how to explain the way I feel on this day – I don’t just feel sorry for myself, but like remembering the birth of child with its joy and elation, I have the counterpart, too. An emoticon for a sword through a heart or a heart with a crown of thorns would have been my choice to to illustrate.

I wish I knew what to say…I feel sad…
at your loss

For those of us who have literally begged our children to breathe, a mother who selfishly killed two of her children and has to tell the world is just so sad.:crying:

Lord have mercy on us all.

Mamaull

 

[aimee]

Mamamull:

The NY Times article really hit me hard. The woman knows she killed two babies. Her boyfriend knows she killed his two babies. The doctor wouldn’t let the father watch him kill the babies. The woman hasn’t married but has children by this man – OK she isn’t 16 and it wasn’t a pickup, she is still an unwed mother sacramentally speaking.

I just spent one of my two days each year where I allow myself to be sad and miss Claire. 8/13 is her deathday and like her birthday is part of the parental heart. I don’t know how to explain the way I feel on this day – I don’t just feel sorry for myself, but like remembering the birth of child with its joy and elation, I have the counterpart, too. An emoticon for a sword through a heart or a heart with a crown of thorns would have been my choice to to illustrate.

For those of us who have literally begged our children to breathe, a mother who selfishly killed two of her children and has to tell the world is just so sad.:crying:

Lord have mercy on us all.

Mamaull

Very sad indeed…

 

[Joanna]

matthew1624:

This is just as revolting…

NY Times Article
July 18, 2004

When One Is Enough
By AMY RICHARDS as told to AMY BARRETT

I grew up in a working-class family in Pennsylvania not knowing my father. I have never missed not having him. I firmly believe that, but for much of my life I felt that what I probably would have gained was economic security and with that societal security. Growing up with a single mother, I was always buying into the myth that I was going to be seduced in the back of a pickup truck and become pregnant when I was 16. I had friends when I was in school who were helping to rear nieces and nephews, because their siblings, who were not much older, were having babies. I had friends from all over the class spectrum: I saw the nieces and nephews on the one hand and country-club memberships and station wagons on the other. I felt I was in the middle. I had this fear: What would it take for me to just slip?

Now I’m 34. My boyfriend, Peter, and I have been together three years. I’m old enough to presume that I wasn’t going to have an easy time becoming pregnant. I was tired of being on the pill, because it made me moody. Before I went off it, Peter and I talked about what would happen if I became pregnant, and we both agreed that we would have the child.

I found out I was having triplets when I went to my obstetrician. The doctor had just finished telling me I was going to have a low-risk pregnancy. She turned on the sonogram machine. There was a long pause, then she said, ‘‘Are you sure you didn’t take fertility drugs?’’ I said, ‘‘I’m positive.’’ Peter and I were very shocked when she said there were three. ‘‘You know, this changes everything,’’ she said. ‘‘You’ll have to see a specialist.’’

My immediate response was, I cannot have triplets. I was not married; I lived in a five-story walk-up in the East Village; I worked freelance; and I would have to go on bed rest in March. I lecture at colleges, and my biggest months are March and April. I would have to give up my main income for the rest of the year. There was a part of me that was sure I could work around that. But it was a matter of, Do I want to?

I looked at Peter and asked the doctor: ‘‘Is it possible to get rid of one of them? Or two of them?’’ The obstetrician wasn’t an expert in selective reduction, but she knew that with a shot of potassium chloride you could eliminate one or more.

Witness the death of conscience.

 

[Shoshana]

Joanna:

Witness the death of conscience.

And I who has lost 4 grandchildren to such a procedure! The first one was on the feast of St. John the Baptist…what a coincidence! :crying: :crying: :crying: :crying:

Jesus gave me the message to hate the sin and love the sinner, as only he can do. Kyrie eleison…:bowdown:

Wormwood, I am pondering the meaning…

Blessings,
Shoshana

 

[CD4]

Shoshana:

And I who has lost 4 grandchildren to such a procedure! The first one was on the feast of St. John the Baptist…what a coincidence! :crying: :crying: :crying: :crying:

Jesus gave me the message to hate the sin and love the sinner, as only he can do. Kyrie eleison…:bowdown:

Wormwood, I am pondering the meaning…

Blessings,
Shoshana

Shoshana, I am so sorry you lost your four precious grandchildren in such a terrible way. I know you miss them…

 

[Ana]

[siamescat]In response…I know many people would not mind caring for a Downs Syndrome child. My next door neighbors (well former…they had to move to be closer to their sons school for autism) are like family to us. They had an autistic son. I love him very much and I am glad it was not known till after the birth of his disability because his mom probably would have aborted him. However, I can see what it did to the rest of the family. They are devastated, struggling to pay a 60k tuition to a school that will help him, and had to move because of it. They cant go many public places, or have much company, and his big sister has suffered a lot from it. It tore the family apart…and they will have to care for him forever…they wont have a retirement…when they die he will probably end up in a home somewhere. That is why I support abortion for a kid with a severe birth defect (and i mean something severe), although i love david very much. I completely understand why some rape victims and parents of special needs children want the children, hwoever I am also understanding of theneed to have an abortion. In rape cases I believe they should be given emergency contraception so that pregnancy will be avoided (i really dont consider it life when the fetus is just a cell). But please dont get me wrong, i know special needs kids can be loving and be loved and that its not their fault…but i understand why some people choose to terminate that kind of pregnancy.

Is this the SAME David?

My next door neighbors are like my family. They have a 5 year old autistic son named David. He is mild. If you observed several different autistic children you will become aware that there are different degrees of severity. He does speak and understand, just on a lower level than the rest of his age group. Hes happy, makes eye contact, likes to cuddle and be around people. Severely autistic kids often dont speak, dont appear to understand (although many do), and hate any social contact, refusing to meet peoples eyes or be hugged or anything. You must be very mild as autism is not something you grow out of…if you were mildly autistic as achild u still are you just were so mild that all you probably needed was some special attention in certain areas to get rid of some of your autistic behaviors and bring you up to ‘normal’ level.

 

[Greg_McPherran]

siamesecat:

In response…I know many people would not mind caring for a Downs Syndrome child. My next door neighbors (well former…they had to move to be closer to their sons school for autism) are like family to us. They had an autistic son. I love him very much and I am glad it was not known till after the birth of his disability because his mom probably would have aborted him. However, I can see what it did to the rest of the family. They are devastated, struggling to pay a 60k tuition to a school that will help him, and had to move because of it. They cant go many public places, or have much company, and his big sister has suffered a lot from it. It tore the family apart…and they will have to care for him forever…they wont have a retirement…when they die he will probably end up in a home somewhere. That is why I support abortion for a kid with a severe birth defect (and i mean something severe), although i love david very much. I completely understand why some rape victims and parents of special needs children want the children, hwoever I am also understanding of theneed to have an abortion. In rape cases I believe they should be given emergency contraception so that pregnancy will be avoided (i really dont consider it life when the fetus is just a cell). But please dont get me wrong, i know special needs kids can be loving and be loved and that its not their fault…but i understand why some people choose to terminate that kind of pregnancy.

Understand that our false preferences for what we would consider a better life or situation by having an abortion do not override the fact that it is not our decision to kill a human life. This is the arrogance of evil, that we take upon ourselves the all-knowing power to determine if a human should be born or not as if we are God. It is a selfish society to begin with that creates an atmosphere that a special needs child is unwanted. This attitude is part of the problem, not something that “makes it understandable” that someone would want to have an abortion. I empathize that a special needs child can be a challenge but we his/her life is equally important in God’s eyes as ours. We may not even be aware of our subconscious elitist attitudes (another evil) that consider that a special needs child is something less than others. We need to seek God’s wisdom, not our false standards of what is a good life. Only God knows what is a good life and only by following Him and being open to His will can we find our complete happiness. This is what we believe as Catholics and this is why it is wrong for a Catholic to not teach all the abortion is wrong. God’s truth applies to all people. “Catholic” means universal.

Your attitude may encourage others to have abortion.

I don’t mean unkindness but your attitude toward human life and abortion is anti-Catholic and therefore it is an evil attitude. Don’t be shocked that I refer to this attitude as evil - we don’t always have to weaken truth so that it does not offend. I think God is offended that you would say that you understand how someone could kill an unborn child that is a member of His created human family. I don’t think you want to offend God. Accept what God teaches and promote the pro-life culture and unite with the Catholic teaching - agreed?

 

[Ana]

Greg_McPherran:

Understand that our false preferences for what we would consider a better life or situation by having an abortion do not override the fact that it is not our decision to kill a human life. This is the arrogance of evil, that we take upon ourselves the all-knowing power to determine if a human should be born or not as if we are God. It is a selfish society to begin with that creates an atmosphere that a special needs child is unwanted. This attitude is part of the problem, not something that “makes it understandable” that someone would want to have an abortion. I empathize that a special needs child can be a challenge but we his/her life is equally important in God’s eyes as ours. We may not even be aware of our subconscious elitist attitudes (another evil) that consider that a special needs child is something less than others. We need to seek God’s wisdom, not our false standards of what is a good life. Only God knows what is a good life and only by following Him and being open to His will can we find our complete happiness. This is what we believe as Catholics and this is why it is wrong for a Catholic to not teach all the abortion is wrong. God’s truth applies to all people. “Catholic” means universal.

Your attitude may encourage others to have abortion.

I don’t mean unkindness but your attitude toward human life and abortion is anti-Catholic and therefore it is an evil attitude. Don’t be shocked that I refer to this attitude as evil - we don’t always have to weaken truth so that it does not offend. I think God is offended that you would say that you understand how someone could kill an unborn child that is a member of His created human family. I don’t think you want to offend God. Accept what God teaches and promote the pro-life culture and unite with the Catholic teaching - agreed?

Wonderful post, Greg. I especially liked the part about “elitest thinking.”:clapping: The wording of your post sounds as if you were speaking from one Catholic to another. If you check her profile, you will see she describes herself as an athiest.
God bless

 

[Greg_McPherran]

Oops, yes I thought I was “scolding” a fellow Catholic, then I did notice that she was an atheist.

Siamese Cat. Even an atheist accepts sound reasoning and logic. Even if we don’t believe in God we must use caution regarding human life because we cannot insist that our own beliefs definitely mean that human life is not created by God. Consider this. Abortionists and those who would have an abortion may say you must prove to me that an unborn child is a human person otherwise I have a right to kill him/her. Regardless of belief in God, this is not sound logic. The abortionist is the one doing the killing so therefore the burden of proof is on the one who is making the active decision to kill. The abortionist must prove that the child is not a human person. Since this is impossible to prove, the abortionist has no right whatsoever to decide to destroy. This is just simple logic.

May God guide you and lead you to His light and His eternal love where you will find yourself and know true joy.

 

[Monarchy]

Greg_McPherran:

Siamese Cat. Even an atheist accepts sound reasoning and logic. Even if we don’t believe in God we must use caution regarding human life because we cannot insist that our own beliefs definitely mean that human life is not created by God. Consider this. Abortionists and those who would have an abortion may say you must prove to me that an unborn child is a human person otherwise I have a right to kill him/her. Regardless of belief in God, this is not sound logic.

Correct, the person making the positive assertion has the burden of proof.

 

[Monarchy]

matthew1624:

Continued (Part II)
…I’ll never leave my house because I’ll have to care for these children. I’ll have to start shopping only at Costco and buying big jars of mayonnaise. Even in my moments of thinking about having three, I don’t think that deep down I was ever considering it.

:banghead:ARRRGH!!! Who says you have to start shoping at Costco? Why not give the ones that are to much up for adoption? Let me Guess, “I could never give up my babies”. The lack of matuity here is stagering…

And Matthew, I know you quoted this from somewhere else, so I am not venting at you…

 

[Monarchy]

Wormwood:

 why should I care what someone I don't even know believes?

Because what if they believe you are the antichrist and must be killed? Or that all blacks must be illiminated. Burying your head in the sand could be fatal.

I don’t know anyone that is for you beating your wife and walking away(probably not the best environment for a child anyway). The reason it isn’t murder is because the mass of tissue is not yet considered a human being…

So much easier to kill a ‘mass of tissue’ than a child. Gotta love Euphemisms.

if your wife was in a car accident and miscarried would that be manslaughter?

If I was driving recklessly, yes

Or if the accident rendered her sterile is that manslaughter for all of the unborn eggs? It is all “human life” in the context you are using.

Unfertilized eggs are not a human being until they meet with the sperm. How does my ‘context’ say otherwise?

Well bless your church, not all do. But do you PERSONALLY do ANYTHING to make a difference?

Hold on there buckaroo, I never claimed it was my church. I happen to be an atheist. And yes, I give food to the local pantry, Buy Christmas gifts for a giving tree, Give belongings to a local resale shope that helps the homeless, etc…

Not what does your church do, as it is not your church that stages fire bombings of clinics i pressume, it is the organized people with purpose that use their free time to demonstrate. I am merely asking why these same people do not direct their efforts towards more productive and life enhancing activities for the living.

Why do you think they don’t?

My only “bigotry” is against people whose only concern is with babies-to-be, and they have none for the living dead the fill the streets. If you don’t fit this catagory then you should take no offense.

I doubt anyone fits in this catagory.

 

[Wormwood]

Dear Wormwood,

Of course I have. Stop showing off

Not only was the question NOT directed towards you, but I SERIOUSLY doubt you have discovered the intended meaning. Sure you probably know a few of the references to wormwood, but you don’t know to which I was refering and in what context I mean that. She was the first to ask about my name so I wanted to see if she had gotten it yet after getting to know me better. So perhaps your overconfidence has betrayed you.

Wormwood, I am pondering the meaning…

I am sorry about your loss, I know most of you see me as a monster, but I am just emotionally sterile, and rendered distant by over analysis of life. You were headed in the right direction with your last guess…I gave you the hint of “revelation”.

Because what if they believe you are the antichrist and must be killed?

I would say that person is very observant and probably not too far from the truth. I feel like the antichrist sometimes. I don’t choose to feel the way I do, it is just my natural reaction. I can see the direction these examples were supposed to take me so I’ll play along. If they BELIEVE I should be killed, like I said they are probably right, but if they choose to act on that, then they have broken the law. So whatever someone believes can’t hurt you, and if it crosses the line to where it can hurt you, THEN you should take action.

So much easier to kill a ‘mass of tissue’ than a child. Gotta love Euphemisms.

I have already explained my humanity is fleeting, so the statement that a zygote is similar to a tumor should be no shock. It is simply an unwanted mass of your cells forming a structure within the confines of your biology. Having said this (to the horror of most of you I’m sure) I would like to point out that I PERSONALLY would never have/ give an abortion, because I think it’s wrong. But I would never deny someone that believes otherwise their right to have one, that is their cross to bear not mine.

Unfertilized eggs are not a human being until they meet with the sperm. How does my ‘context’ say otherwise?

Because I was refering to zygotes and not fetuses. A zygote occurs right after the cell (the egg) starts to divide. ( it is literally a small mass of cells.) The necessary chromosomes for human life are still forming. This is the stage when the body has natural abortions all the time. Are all the zygotes in heaven? See this issue is clouded and I was saying that people are undecided when someone becomes a person, and my own theory places it somewhere after the brain and organs develop.

Hold on there buckaroo, I never claimed it was my church. I happen to be an atheist

So you are just arguing for the sake of arguing? You defend both sides. What is your point exactly?

Why do you think they don’t?

Well someone is standing in front of those clinics everyday because I used to live right down the street from one.

I doubt anyone fits in this catagory.

You’d be surprised.

 

[aimee]

Wormwood,

I was just wondering if you had a kinder more gentler side?

 

[Shoshana]

Wormwood:

I am sorry about your loss, I know most of you see me as a monster, but I am just emotionally sterile, and rendered distant by over analysis of life. You were headed in the right direction with your last guess…I gave you the hint of “revelation”.

I would say that person is very observant and probably not too far from the truth. I feel like the antichrist sometimes. I don’t choose to feel the way I do, it is just my natural reaction.
I have already explained my humanity is fleeting, so the statement that a zygote is similar to a tumor should be no shock.

Dear Wormwood,

Thank you for your kind words…it felt like a balm over a very deep wound.

Revelation 8, 10-Then the third angel sounded: 'And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter.

Now Wormwood, wormwood is a bitter plant symbolizing the punishment God inflicts on the ungodly. This is your username. I can only think of two things about this:

1. you, as a person feels so bitter, that, you poison those who surround you. You feel you are ‘poison’, thus it would stand to reason that your poison would spread. Thus, in your mind maybe, God has punished you with this plague, as it were and it just keeps on spreading, out of control.
2. you, as a person, for some reason, have the ability to leach the poison out of your surroundings. In your ‘presence’ the worst of people come out, thus betraying their so-called christianity. It doesn’t take much to scratch the veneer and voila, the real person comes out. Not a pretty sight is it?

That is all I can think of at this time, If I keep scratching my head, there will no more hair left. Let me know how you ‘feel’ about my amateurish assessment. Maybe you can enlighten me…

Blessings,
Shoshana

 

[Wormwood]

Now Wormwood, wormwood is a bitter plant symbolizing the punishment God inflicts on the ungodly. This is your username. I can only think of two things about this:

1. you, as a person feels so bitter, that, you poison those who surround you. You feel you are ‘poison’, thus it would stand to reason that your poison would spread. Thus, in your mind maybe, God has punished you with this plague, as it were and it just keeps on spreading, out of control.

1. you, as a person, for some reason, have the ability to leach the poison out of your surroundings. In your ‘presence’ the worst of people come out, thus betraying their so-called christianity. It doesn’t take much to scratch the veneer and voila, the real person comes out. Not a pretty sight is it?

Very astute as always. You got it right! Although I should add the these effects are not intentional. I am stubborn and abrasive and I question EVERYTHING by nature. This tends to bring out the worst in people, and my mind is poison because I cast my doubts onto others when I am searching for the answers. I corrupt people around me constantly, and unintentionally. Like how I argue FOR abortion rights, eventhough I myself would never use those rights. This is mainly because I can see the other point of view that MY morality should have no bearing on the actions of others. When my morality does effect people around me it is usually in a bad way. I have tried to live as decent as I can to stop the collateral damage to christian society but even when I question, I bring out hostility. It is true that I am an agnostic, but I don’t doubt the existance of God, just the merrit of religions. And for THIS reason I feel cursed. At least atheists have the comfort of “knowing” thereis no God and therefore nothing to worry about, I am not afforded that luxury. I feel the presence of his gaze when I am poisoning his children, but I can not stop myself. I wish I could just shut my doubt off and be happy like veryone else, but my mind won’t let me. I am compelled to turn people against each other and against me, and sometimes I question, “is this God’s will?”. And that is where the bitterness comes in. Why send me upon the blissful masses as a curse to both them, and myself? I guess that is why I defend people’s right to have an abortion, to spare the world of the tainted and taintable ( which in itself is poison). I didn’t mean to go on a personal tangent, but I didn’t want anyone else to fall victim to my “poison” (thru getting angry, name calling, and general loss of christian values). I am just on a search for some sort of truth. So thank everyone who responded to me on this thread, I agree that our view of “right” does not include abortion (baby killing), but that “right” is subjective. An example being : many animals eat their young to conserve resources, so obviously killing the young is not against “natural law”. We as educated people should not commit these acts because they are seen as savage, but it should still be your own choice to do the right thing. Morality is something you achieve, not something that is enforced.

 

[Wormwood]

Wormwood,

I was just wondering if you had a kinder more gentler side?

Are you hitting on me? JK. I suppose I do on some level or another. I am not always so forthcoming with my criticisms if that is what you mean. I am just very serious when I want to know something, and my tactics for debate are admittedly suspect. I look for reasons based on logic AND faith, as a strictly “faith” answers can be frustrating. So yes, I like puppies and rainbows and such, and I volunteer and help homeless people, I am just a jerk .

 

[Ana]

Wormwood:

Are you hitting on me? JK. I suppose I do on some level or another. I am not always so forthcoming with my criticisms if that is what you mean. I am just very serious when I want to know something, and my tactics for debate are admittedly suspect. I look for reasons based on logic AND faith, as a strictly “faith” answers can be frustrating. So yes, I like puppies and rainbows and such, and I volunteer and help homeless people, I am just a jerk .

…albeit a somewhat likable one…

Good work, Shoshana!!:clapping:

 

[Wormwood]

…albeit a somewhat likable one…

Good work, Shoshana!!:clapping:

AWWW, you ARE hitting on me!! JK If I didn’t know better I would say that sounded like a compliment (somewhat) You’re not going to start going easy on this old “wolf among the sheep” are you? Just because Shoshana (and you) got me to admit a more human side does not make me likeable I promise. I am a contemptable human being as you read in the explaination of my name. I did find it interesting no matter how much I repulsed everyone else, you guys were curious about my “human” side. This speaks volumes about your character, and I believe that regaurdless of who is right and who is wrong, you are on the path to righteousness. Infinite patience is a virtue seldom seen, and though you disagree with me totally, you never lost your civility, and I applaud that. You guys are what keep me coming back, it is nice to see the antithesis of myself: the living antidote. So while you might not hate me, you probably shouldn’t like me because I am the worst person that posts on this forum I’m sure. Just know that I am not the “antichrist” by choice, it just seems to always work out that way.