I know this is BAD! using Contraception

[tamccrackine]

mumto5:

Well, looking at my own actions, maybe if they’d come around with a meal or something I’d have had the chance to be grateful. A couple did visit me, which I was grateful for, but none were there to give me a shoulder to cry on in the months afterwards while I was dealing with the trauma. That fell to those who actually cared, from other churches by coincidence, and the support I had from them was awesome. One I can understand as she was expecting herself and I think preferred not to consider the possibilities. But the others had no excuses. I’d like to thank my Protestant friends for setting an example of Christly love.

With all due respect, but it seems as if you placed an expectation on people and they didn’t realize it was there and therefore it wasn’t able to be met, and now you’re holding their ignorance against them. I don’t know the Church that you go to, so I can’t make a claim as to whether it has a social committee or some other type of committee that specializes in situations like that. I’m in a military community and I had a miscarriage at 14 weeks and it was the non-Catholic military wives that brought me dinner, came to see me, took care of my kids and brought dinner to my husband so he didn’t have to cook (not that he’s a bad one either). None of my friends from Church came to see me, let alone call. Did I hold it against them? No. I realize they have lives too and they realize I’m a strong person and if I needed them, they know I would have called. I actually preferred to lean on my husband and God than have 15 people fawning all over me. As much as I thoroughly enjoyed someone bringing dinner to my family while I was down and out on drugs, it wasn’t something I expected from people.

Back to the OP though… I highly suggest you pray and pray some more. It’s the only way to discern what the proper choice will be. The best part of NFP is that you can flip it around from one month to the next… abstain, try to conceive, abstain…wereas using BC doesn’t allow you to do that. I know you mentioned that you’d use condoms but are you aware that the spermicide in condoms can cause birth defects if your wife is unsuspectantly pregnant?

Anyway… I can understand the struggle for a couple in this arena. But I don’t know how I’d feel, honestly, if my life was dependant upon birthing another baby. That must be a hard cross to carry and would require alot of faith and trust in God. My personal feeling though is that I would practice NFP like a zealot.

This is just IMHO though.

 

[pira114]

Pug:

kamz:

Are you saying that it was the right thing to do, to get a tubal? So many things are easier if the man and wife are of the same religion!

I don’t think she sinned at all. In her particular case, the tubal was intended to prevent her death, which most likely would have been caused by the next pregnancy. The Church teaches that medical procedures that are necessary for you health are O.K. even if they leave you infertile. I don’t see anything to confess. NFP is not 100% foolproof, so when it comes to life or death, it shouldn’t be considered. I only see three options, tubal, vascectomy, or abstinence. I don’t see any of these being a sin in this case.

 

[kamz]

NO, it was not the right thing, and it was not planned, it was put upon me after having finally had my child and I was groggy as heck and still on the operating table cut open and my doctor said, I really, really think you should have a tubal or your husband a vasectomy, you are a mess inside and you should not have anymore kids, well, I was so under pressure and my husband was sitting by my head in the operation room crying after almost losing me and he said, please, please do it, and I agreed, I was sorry before I left the hospital, I was in confession 72 hours later and my priest visited me several times at home due to me being very upset and depressed, it is a huge burden for me but my husband has said since that time, if you would have not had that tubal and you would have had another baby and just if you would have lost your life, then I would have raised the kids Lutheran as that would be my right since you would be gone. Again, oh, if I had known this before we were married, guess what? I don’t think I would have married him. And I have had the same type of conversations with many other Catholics women, oh, if only I had known. But, I have beat myself up over this for 2 years and I can’t anymore, I have gone to confession over and over and my priest finally said, your forgiven, now stop this, right now and forgive yourself and get out there and put a voice to this and let our youth know how imortant it is to marry someone who will feel the same way you do in 5, 10, 15, years, because if my husband would have been a faithful Catholic who would have said “no more kids doc?” then we will use NFP faithfully and abstain if need be, I wish I had a husband who would have done that for me, but sadly, I don’t have a husband that would do that and that is a whole other story.

 

[kamz]

pira114:

Pug:

I don’t think she sinned at all. In her particular case, the tubal was intended to prevent her death, which most likely would have been caused by the next pregnancy. The Church teaches that medical procedures that are necessary for you health are O.K. even if they leave you infertile. I don’t see anything to confess. NFP is not 100% foolproof, so when it comes to life or death, it shouldn’t be considered. I only see three options, tubal, vascectomy, or abstinence. I don’t see any of these being a sin in this case.

Again, I would have been more than happy to never have marital relations ever again but my husband said, forget it.
It has caused a huge amount of stress on our marriage, I have resented that he put me in this situation knowing full well how I felt about how the church would feel. He just doesn’t get it at all, he is very, very immature in this one area.
In the past 6 months after my priest told me it was time to let go and start to look at what I could do to help others, that has finally made me feel better, I just never thought this would happen to me, I never thought I would be in this position, never, it all happened so fast and turned bad so quickly, there was no time to even talk about it and I regret that and I feel angry at the doctors for putting me on the spot while I was under the knife, I was drugged and can hardly remember the conversation, I keep wishing I could go back in time and change it but I can’t, it is a huge cross to bear.

 

[Nance]

uofl… Evreyone here who has posted is correct and that the message conveyed to you has been lovingly told with truth.

I just wanted to add that too often children are referred to as financial burdens and with that kind of mentality its no wonder families are contracepting and more if you get my meaning…
We need to turn that around and think of children as assets…
In your posts you talk about the finances alot…may I suggest that saving up for post secondary education can be attained in many other ways… scholarships, the child can work for it, and if he/or she is meant to go he/she will go to college or university.
Relax… and trust

 

[Pug]

Oh, Kamz, of course don’t beat yourself up over this, if you can stop yourself from it, that is. The priest is so right about that! I’d say, “It’s over. It’s over. Don’t worrry!” except that you still live with it, as I can hear.:crying: I can imagine it might be driving a wedge in your marriage. I’m glad you are out there spreading the word. Keep it up!

 

[sanctareparata]

PIRA114 said:
I don’t think she sinned at all. In her particular case, the tubal was intended to prevent her death, which most likely would have been caused by the next pregnancy. The Church teaches that medical procedures that are necessary for you health are O.K. even if they leave you infertile. I don’t see anything to confess. NFP is not 100% foolproof, so when it comes to life or death, it shouldn’t be considered. I only see three options, tubal, vascectomy, or abstinence. I don’t see any of these being a sin in this case.

You’re incorrect here. While the Church does teach that medical procedures that are necessary for your life are okay even if they leave you infertile, that ONLY goes for those procedures that need to be done because the ORGAN ITSELF is the problem - not the risk of future pregnancies. In other words, if you have a cancerous tumors in your fallopian tubes, the tubes can be removed even though now you are left infertile. However, if the tubes are healthy and are only removed in order to avoid becoming pregnant, then you cannot morally have the surgery. That type of surgery is not acting to assist the patient in the removal of an unhealthy organ - it is acting to assist the patient in not getting pregnant. Two entirely different things. One is a morally sound surgical procedure, the other is a contraceptive one. Tubal ligations are sinful matter, as are vasectomies.

The ONLY option is ABSTINENCE. Period.

 

[Pug]

pira114:

The Church teaches that medical procedures that are necessary for you health are O.K. even if they leave you infertile.

Just as a general note, the Church does not let you get a sterilization to prevent future pregnancies, where the pregnancy is what poses the danger. I’m going to try to rummage about for a vatican reference to that. It’s been posted on other threads.

Here is a link, but I’m not sure, on another thread I might have once posted a better one. I know this talks about uterine isolation, but the relevant principle is enunciated within the article.

 

[YinYangMom]

mumto5:

I just ran out of reasons and with the OK of several priests, it’s kind of hard to argue. It wasn’t something I nominated. The only guilt I might have is by ommission - failing to fight it as I had done before. **

Ah, yes. I thought that was you…I remember those earlier threads…you did the best you could, I recall. I guess I’m concerned about the relief you feel, but what’s done is done and it helps no one to dwell on it, I understand.

**I’m not referring to the pregnancy. I wouldn’t be without my daughter at all. I’m referring to the birth and all that happened there. I had reason to be dubious after the warning signs the birth before. I trusted, it was much worse, I almost died. Most doctors are surprised I survived and did so well. **

Oh, I see.

The church wasn’t there in a practical sense. It really opened my eyes that if I wasn’t there for my family anymore, the church wouldn’t be there to pick-up the slack on a day to day basis. Who would have had to cope, without support from the church? My husband and children. The church doesn’t help with the bills, the running of the household, or give my husband time out. We don’t have a lot of family here to help either. They weren’t there and had the worst happened, they still wouldn’t be there. Yet they try to tell me I have to put my life on the line again due to some rule that I just can’t understand despite a big effort to. I can’t feel I was wrong to ‘allow’ my husband to do what he wanted to do (bearing in mind he is not Catholic). I’m not saying the church owes us any help at all, but it seems wrong to make a rule and then not follow-up when that rule leads a family to a difficult situation. I believe in putting one’s money where one’s mouth is.

But the Church isn’t the one making any rules. The only thing the Church does is remind us to trust in God for all things. The Church prays for us, offers us the sacraments, brings us closer to God.

I don’t understand why anyone would expect any Church to step in physically to pay bills or clean house or any of the other day-to-day things in our lives. I live thousands of miles from family, and have no real friends in our town (many aquaintances and great co-workers) so I’m familiar with your situation. We’ve often discussed what the course of action should be if one or both of us were to die suddenly (car crashes, perhaps). Bottom line, we carry with us in our wallets instructions on who to notify - first our insurance agent because he knows where all the assets are, next our parents who are out of state but who have our instructions in writing, and third our priest so they can start the prayers coming.

Since we’ve been on our own our entire marriage we’ve spoken with our kids every year about what they should expect should we be taken suddenly by God, different levels for their different stages of development, of course. Now that the eldest is 17 they’re set to live on their own in our home should anything happen to us and to continue with their education, as they know what we would want for them. Out of necessity we’ve always spoken honestly and openly about ‘what-ifs’ especially when news stories appear in the paper and on the news about how families are wiped out during holiday travels. We’ve focused on minimizing fear of the unknown through careful planning and open discussions with our kids and our parents and siblings.

The insurance has the house paid for and their college educations. We have appointed legal guardians for them…it’s all in the planning. God gives us the foresight to anticipate many scenarios and also the people who can help with any transitions should the worst case happen, it’s our responsibility to use them wisely.

God gave you another chance to prepare your family. While you no longer have to worry about a pregnancy, there are always other things which can happen to leave your family without a parent. If you really want people from the church to step in and help then now’s the time to communicate that with the priest, ask him which ministries you should speak with to find out how to get on their list.

Death of a loved one is always difficult to endure but it’s far worse when it comes as a surprise and no one knows what to do. I consider it my last gift to those I love to make sure there are no questions for them and that they will have peace. I want them to be happy for me, not sad, because I will then be free to be with them 24/7 no matter what - no longer constrained by time, space and they physical aspects of this life, and I can be at peace knowing I’ve taken care of their needs now and into the future.

 

[YinYangMom]

Kamz,

I really feel for what you had to endure on that operation table. You did the best you could under the circumstances and you made a sincere confession as soon as the drugs wore off. If it were me the confession would have been for no longer being able to bring life into the world more than having given the ok for the surgery. Mortal sin requires full knowledge and consent and under the circumstances you had neither, but still, you are absolutely correct to trust that God knows your heart and all is well between you and Him n this matter.

I hope you are at peace and living life to the fullest with your family.

 

[mumto5]

tamccrackine:

With all due respect, but it seems as if you placed an expectation on people and they didn’t realize it was there and therefore it wasn’t able to be met, and now you’re holding their ignorance against them.

**Maybe. But isn’t that what people do when a friend has a baby? Or at least, they do around here. Maybe they thought they’d leave me alone to recover, but even after certain people knew what I was going through emotionally, they never acted like a friend should. I got through thanks to a friend from a different denomination. But then, this has been my experience in the Catholic church all my life. I realise other people are busy with their own lives, I’m busier than a lot of them still, but I will still do anything at any moment to help a friend - and have done so for a couple of people in the past. I’m seriously considering becoming a lot more selfish. It would make my life easier for sure. I will go all out for strangers. My mistake. **

I don’t know the Church that you go to, so I can’t make a claim as to whether it has a social committee or some other type of committee that specializes in situations like that.

No, it doesn’t.

I actually preferred to lean on my husband and God than have 15 people fawning all over me.

I don’t expect anyone to fawn over me. Just a call asking how I was feeling about things now would have been nice.It says, “I care, you matter”. Same old story. Oh well. In the end we’re all we’ve got so we have to do what we can to survive*

 

[mumto5]

YinYangMom:

I don’t understand why anyone would expect any Church to step in physically to pay bills or clean house or any of the other day-to-day things in our lives.

I certainly don’t expect the bills or anything to be done by the church, but a single father of five, especially with a young baby, needs practical support and where a family has lost the mother following the teachings of the church, why shouldn’t the church help provide that practical support? To do otherwise seems hypocritical to me.

We are very well prepared should anything happen to us, just as well as we were prepared that day. We are lucky, we have enough money to afford comprehensive insurance. If I died my husband would have got the mortgage paid off and close to a million dollars in life-insurance. Not everyone can afford to be so well set up. Jesus exhorted us to help those in that situation. Seems very few Catholics do so however.

Yes, I feel relief, be concerned if you like. I’m still suffering post-traumatic stress. It’s well under control now but still there. And yea, I know when I’ve been let down. Thankfully, this situation has clarified for me who is someone worth my time and effort and who isn’t. That’s a huge plus. Can be quite surprising.

 

[YinYangMom]

mumto5:

Yes, I feel relief, be concerned if you like. I’m still suffering post-traumatic stress. It’s well under control now but still there. And yea, I know when I’ve been let down. Thankfully, this situation has clarified for me who is someone worth my time and effort and who isn’t. That’s a huge plus. Can be quite surprising.

I will pray for your post-traumatic stress recovery. I’m glad everything worked out well.

Caution about that ‘who’s worth my time and effort’ reasoning though…that’s a slippery slope away from God’s commandment.

You were right in the beginning and all along, to give yourself to anyone who needed it. That is what God commanded and you served Him well that way.

It is Satan who throws in that ‘conditional’ thing though…He’s the one nagging at you to keep score, take note as to who returns your efforts, who’s worthy of further assistance from you…it’s stops the good from flowing on this earth…as you begin to hold back on sharing God’s love and mercy, others do the same.

Unconditional love is God. Unconditional love is what we are called to share with everyone around us because we are God’s representatives on earth, as confirmed ‘Soldiers of Christ’ we do what needs to be done out of love for God, not in order to get something in return here on earth from anyone here on earth.

Think about it…what sacrifice is there in doing the easy things? It’s easy to love our friends, harder to love our enemies. Which did Jesus command us to do? Both.

Please do not judge your Catholic friends poorly for not coming to your house or calling on you. There are many factors which come into play of which you are unaware. I bet they all prayed for you, is that not worth anything to you?

I’ll admit, it was early on in my marriage when I learned the very lesson you did about making the distinction between ‘friend’ and ‘acquaintance’. It’s a big difference.

Had I been in your situation my family (parents & 4 siblings) and friends (I only consider 4 people in that circle) would have flown across the country in a heartbeat to help out. They would have coordinated shifts with each other and my family to make sure my needs were covered. People down the street, people with whom I’ve worked on religious committees with for years, people I work with (well most of them) would not have called or visited. They would have sent cards, for certain. All of them would have prayed for me, and that would have been worth everything to me.

Having moved several times, starting over, I’ve come to understand how that works and as a result, I truly, truly appreciate my friends. I don’t fault the new people in my life. Even after 9 years here, I don’t fault any of them for not trying to get to know me better. I notice, yes. It’s sad, yes. But in the end, God brings each person in my life for a reason. If they haven’t been drawn to become my ‘friend’ then I trust God doesn’t have that in their plan and that makes everything ok, even though it appears off-balanced and unfair. In the meantime I still give my all to everyone around me, going that extra mile even when I wear myself thin. I don’t do it for them. I don’t do it for me. I do it for God because He has blessed me so much and it’s the least I can do to show Him how much I appreciate all of it.

 

[tamccrackine]

**Maybe. But isn’t that what people do when a friend has a baby? Or at least, they do around here. Maybe they thought they’d leave me alone to recover, but even after certain people knew what I was going through emotionally, they never acted like a friend should. I got through thanks to a friend from a different denomination. But then, this has been my experience in the Catholic church all my life. I realise other people are busy with their own lives, I’m busier than a lot of them still, but I will still do anything at any moment to help a friend - and have done so for a couple of people in the past. I’m seriously considering becoming a lot more selfish. It would make my life easier for sure. I will go all out for strangers. My mistake. **

rofl… I understand the frustration… .I really do… as I told my sister who got her nose out of joint because her neighbor didn’t shovel the snow off the entire shared porch, just in front of her own door while my sis shovels the entire porch… just because you do something thoughtful or do something you’d think you’d like from others in a similar situation… doesn’t mean you should set that expectation of recipriocality on others because, no matter what, it’ll never be met. And that leads to heartache, upset feelings, hurt. And it’s not fair to either party… your feelings of hurt because of an unmet expectation and them not even knowing it.

mumto5:

I actually preferred to lean on my husband and God than have 15 people fawning all over me.
I don’t expect anyone to fawn over me. Just a call asking how I was feeling about things now would have been nice.It says, “I care, you matter”. Same old story. Oh well. In the end we’re all we’ve got so we have to do what we can to survive*

Let them know that for any future needs you might have. I’m sure they’d love to help you out in some capacity. And denominations have nothing to do with it. I’ve met some Catholics who I wish I had the power to erase that thought from their mind because they are not Catholic in the entire sense of the word. And I’ve met some Baptists who I thought were the most thoughtless ameoba’s in the world. I could go on… but I’ve met alot of people who are loving, caring and generous.

 

[Polar]

I’m not yet a Catholic, so maybe my opinion doesn’t count as much. But I’ll give it to you anyway

Like your parents I disagree with with the Church’s teaching on contraception. A couple should be free to use contraception. Nature teaches us that a woman is infertile at certain times (NFP). I my mind - If by avoiding having sex at her fertile time in the cycle is ok, then it is ok to avoid getting pregnant by other means (not abortion!).

The ‘ban’ against contraception is the popes personal conviction, and popes can be wrong. If after having thought serious about this matter a Christian finds the Church’s teaching wrong, than he must answer to God about his conviction.

I would feel like having blood on my hands if I supported the Churches teaching on banning all contraception. Further, I don’t see the logic. If nature teaches us that pregnancy can be avoided, then there is no reason why we can’t use contraception. No one can talk me out of this, and if by beliving so means that I can’t become a Catholic, so be it.

Pregnancy shouldn’t be seen as a side-effect of sex. But choosing contraceptions or not is a matter for the individual, adult Christian.

I have never understood contraceptions as sinful, because the teaching is not infallable.

And finally my advice to you:
You feel it’s wrong to go against the Church in this matter. Then don’t go against her. Use NFP instead.

 

[kamz]

YinYangMom:

Kamz,

I really feel for what you had to endure on that operation table. You did the best you could under the circumstances and you made a sincere confession as soon as the drugs wore off. If it were me the confession would have been for no longer being able to bring life into the world more than having given the ok for the surgery. Mortal sin requires full knowledge and consent and under the circumstances you had neither, but still, you are absolutely correct to trust that God knows your heart and all is well between you and Him n this matter.

I hope you are at peace and living life to the fullest with your family.

thank you, I really am trying, but it seems like right when I think I am moving on…I take two steps back and I am depressed and angry with myself and with my husband, you know, should have, would have, could have? It can eat you alive, I look at all the blessings God has given me and I feel so unworthy, I feel unworthy of his love or forgivness, it is very difficult somedays

 

[1ke]

Polar:

Like your parents I disagree with with the Church’s teaching on contraception. A couple should be free to use contraception. Nature teaches us that a woman is infertile at certain times (NFP). I my mind - If by avoiding having sex at her fertile time in the cycle is ok, then it is ok to avoid getting pregnant by other means (not abortion!).

This is an example of the ends justifying the means, which of course they do not. By this logic it’s OK to rob a bank rather than earning a paycheck because the end of providing money to your family is the same end-- the means are different means. Of course we see this for what it is-- absurd. So too your idea that contraception and NFP are morally equivalent b/c they have the same end-- spacing or planning children. They are not, one is gravely disordered and one is not. Same with robbing a bank versus getting a job.

Polar:

The ‘ban’ against contraception is the popes personal conviction, and popes can be wrong. If after having thought serious about this matter a Christian finds the Church’s teaching wrong, than he must answer to God about his conviction.

No, it is an infallible teaching through the ordinary magesterium. Since you are not yet Catholic, you do not understand fully how the Church teaches. That contraception is a gravely disordered act (ie, a mortal sin) is not a pope’s “personal opinion”-- it is an infallible teaching of the Church.

Polar:

I would feel like having blood on my hands if I supported the Churches teaching on banning all contraception. Further, I don’t see the logic. If nature teaches us that pregnancy can be avoided, then there is no reason why we can’t use contraception. No one can talk me out of this, and if by beliving so means that I can’t become a Catholic, so be it.

I answered in your other post-- it is those who promote contraception who have blood on their hands.

Polar:

Pregnancy shouldn’t be seen as a side-effect of sex. But choosing contraceptions or not is a matter for the individual, adult Christian.

No, it is not.

Polar:

I have never understood contraceptions as sinful, because the teaching is not infallable.

Yes, it is.

Polar:

And finally my advice to you:
You feel it’s wrong to go against the Church in this matter. Then don’t go against her. Use NFP instead.

Ah, some good advice.

 

[Jennifer_J]

Polar:

Pregnancy shouldn’t be seen as a side-effect of sex. But choosing contraceptions or not is a matter for the individual, adult Christian.

.

UMMMM…if you’re having sex, then pregnancy is certainly a possibility. All methods of contraception and NFP have FAILURE rates!!! Abstience is the only 100% effect birth control! Sex has 2 functions: PROCREATION and UNITIVE. They are intertwined and can’t be artifically seperated.

Your whole post was filled with error. I suggest you do more studying and reading on what the Church really teaches and the role of the Pope as teacher. God be with you.

 

[jess7396]

I read through the whole thread and haven’t seen the OP come back to talk.

Have you considered NFP? I use the Creighton Method, despite the fact that I (like a couple of others on this thread) must avoid pregnancy as another pregnancy would be life-threatening to me.

If I can use NFP given my life-risking possibility, even though many family, friends, and even priests would want me to use other methods, then- you certainly could use it to avoid pregnancy for other “grave” reasons, should you actually have grave reasons.

ITA with other posters who pointed out that with cloth diapers and breastfeeding, another baby does not have to cost much of anything.

There are good reasons to “space children” just be careful about being too “worldly” on the money issue.

(said like a cheerleader) GO CREIGHTON!

 

[Michelle_in_KC]

To the OP…

My husband felt a little like you did for the first 4 months of our first child’s life. Thankfully, with God’s grace and assistance, he and I together came to the conclusion that we owed it to ourselves to check out NFP and took classes from Couple to Couple league. Best thing we ever did for our marriage. It has worked for us both ways…we’ve never conceived when we thought we couldn’t. And each time we opened our marital embrace to God’s grace during the fertile time, we conceived a child. WE had very good teachers and we are both committed to it fully. But that’s really the key…both partners in the marriage must be on board for NFP to work the way it is intended, I believe.

It’s amazing how putting God’s plan for sex within marriage into perspective helped us to appreciate each other more, in different ways and also to communicate better than we ever imagined possible. It’s been the number one BEST thing we did for our marriage (besides having children…we have #3 on the way).

As for your financial concerns…well, like many on here have said, hand those concerns over to God. I can’t tell you how many times in our marriage that I have looked over the past month and wondered just how we came up with the money to pay all the bills, fuel our cars and feed our children and ourselves…but it’s happened.

God bless you.