I need help with the Pope's audience hall looking like a snake

  • Thread starter Thread starter sadness99
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
27lw said:
But faced with this bizarre building and sculpture used often in Vatican City, and how it looks to Protestants and frankly, anyone else, Catholics are like “Meh. so one of our buildings looks like a snake / Star trek set”.
Click to expand...
Saying it’s not a Satanic conspiracy is not the same as shrugging one’s shoulders at it.
 
The problem is that you can never tell what the Church-bashing element is going to deem to be offensive. Should the Church round up all the anti-Church internet denizens and run all its plans past them? Even that wouldn’t work because this element will simply find something else that offends them - because their supposed offense at this or that that is not really the point of their complaining, or the source of their “offense”. A better reaction would be to just ignore their nonsense and go about our business.
 
I saw that, but that is simply buying into the false controversies. Regardless of what you build in its place, the Church-bashers will have some reason that must be torn down also. The controversy is not over a particular building, a particular comment by a particular Pope, a particular change to the Mass, or whatever else is the “outrage” of the day.
 
I wonder if that snake effect is not caused by wide-angle camera lenses. It really does not give the same impression when you’re actually standing in the hall.
 
DeniseNY said:
40.png
27lw:
But faced with this bizarre building and sculpture used often in Vatican City, and how it looks to Protestants and frankly, anyone else, Catholics are like “Meh. so one of our buildings looks like a snake / Star trek set”.
Click to expand...
Maybe instead of remaining uninformed, these folks can learn something instead

Is That a Demon Behind the Pope? | Catholic Answers

II don’t see why Catholics should be so all fired concerned with what Protestants think.
Click to expand...
Yes, I read that, but the fact that Mr. Nash has to write this sentence at all indicates that something is off:
"Even if some people don’t like Mr. Fazzini’s depiction, there is no doubt that his work presents the resurrected Jesus, not a “serpent idol” or something demonic."
Click to expand...
There obviously is a doubt, if anyone even has to address the question.
 
27lw said:
Yes, I read that, but the fact that Mr. Nash has to write this sentence at all indicates that something is off:
Click to expand...
Because for some odd reason Catholics still feel the odd need to justify ourselves to non-Catholics. If we don’t respond - we’re hiding something or are tacitly agreeing with what is being said. If we do respond - we’re being defensive or it shows something is off in the first place. Darned if we do, darned if we don’t.

As asked earlier in the thread, are you Catholic?
 
DeniseNY said:
40.png
27lw:
But faced with this bizarre building and sculpture used often in Vatican City, and how it looks to Protestants and frankly, anyone else, Catholics are like “Meh. so one of our buildings looks like a snake / Star trek set”.
Click to expand...
Maybe instead of remaining uninformed, these folks can learn something instead

Is That a Demon Behind the Pope? | Catholic Answers

II don’t see why Catholics should be so all fired concerned with what Protestants think.
Click to expand...
Okay, now I understand what the sculpture is supposed to be.
I still think it’s ugly.
 
TMC said:
Regardless of what you build in its place, the Church-bashers will have some reason that must be torn down also.
Click to expand...
Haters gonna hate. Bashers gonna bash.
27lw said:
There obviously is a doubt, if anyone even has to address the question.
Click to expand...
Manufactured doubt. Throw a lot of smoke bombs at us and then say 'Well, where there’s smoke there’s fire."
DeniseNY said:
Because for some odd reason Catholics still feel the odd need to justify ourselves to non-Catholics. If we don’t respond - we’re hiding something or are tacitly agreeing with what is being said. If we do respond - we’re being defensive or it shows something is off in the first place. Darned if we do, darned if we don’t.
Click to expand...
Haters gonna hate. Bashers gonna bash.
 
Last edited:
OddBird said:
I wonder if that snake effect is not caused by wide-angle camera lenses. It really does not give the same impression when you’re actually standing in the hall.
Click to expand...
That is good to know.
The theories that say it also looks like a snake from the exterior are totally bogus. It only looks like a snake in certain photos of the interior. In my opinion.

With apologies to Bruno Mars:
“Got a Snake Hall, then flaunt it.
Cold War Christ - then own it!”
 
Thank you. So why would it be necessary to justify or defend ourselves to Protestants?
 
We would convert them with the Truth of Catholicism, not silly and completely irrelevant nonsense regarding the Pope’s audience hall.

Honestly, if there is a Protestant who has this on the top of their list of their concerns/questions, then I don’t think there is much chance of conversion.
 
Last edited:
DeniseNY said:
Maybe instead of remaining uninformed, these folks can learn something instead.

II don’t see why Catholics should be so all fired concerned with what Protestants think.
Click to expand...
Because we care about their souls and want them to convert, instead of stumble over completely unnecessary and unforced errors of ours? Because we think people who believe the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon, need to be helped out of that error? Not reinforced in it?
TMC said:
The problem is that you can never tell what the Church-bashing element is going to deem to be offensive.
Click to expand...
You… you can’t tell?

You couldn’t have predicted that a giant, evil-looking statue looming behind the pope’s seat, like a literal demon out of the shadows, a straight-up monster out of Pan’s Labyrinth, would be a gift to Church bashers?

I mean, if you say you literally can’t tell, that’s… scientifically fascinating to me.

I just think people who literally can’t tell something like this, shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near artistic decisions about how to visually represent the Church to others. Because contrary to the faddish notion that all art is equal and beauty is merely subjective, it’s not remotely true that there is no common sense of beauty and symbolism (even in a given time/place), and art has a psychological impact on people. It’s not bunk (even if it’s a cliche) that a picture is worth a thousand words. It’s not enough to sip our tea and mock the ‘uneducated’ for not taking the time to comprehend our super-deep and complex unusual imagery, bro. There’s a reason the Church developed such a rich visual environment over the ages (e.g. stained glass windows in cathedrals, that tell stories visually; paintings all the way up a wall and across a ceiling, telling a story visually). It was for the sake of the illiterate and ‘common’ people who couldn’t necessarily read the texts for themselves. It was an act of charity to the people. Because the Church realized stories can be told, and meaning communicated, through the language of visual art. And a language of visual symbolism and meaning develops over time.

And in that centuries-entrenched visual language, which you can’t just shake out of the minds of normal people because you want to, that enormous statue looks like it represents a demon coming out of hell.
DeniseNY said:
Because for some odd reason Catholics still feel the odd need to justify ourselves to non-Catholics.
Click to expand...
This seems insular to me. We’re not an ethno-state closed to outsiders just seeking to be left alone; we’re a religion seeking converts. By the direct command of sacred Scripture, we are called to justify ourselves to non-Catholics (always be prepared to give a reason for the hope that is in you). Going out of our way to instead put insane stumbling blocks in front of non-Catholics, like representing ourselves with evil-looking artwork when we don’t have to, is just so absurd I can barely talk about it. It’s just so. Absurd.

A Mitchell and Webb sketch comes to mind:

 
I would call it nonsense, and no kind of controversy, but we are each entitled to our opinions.

To give some idea why I think as I do, I would look to the source of the accusations and their nature.
 
Not all Catholics here agree that it’s “demonic” so how can it be indicative of Catholic culture?
 
TMC said:
I would call it nonsense, and no kind of controversy, but we are each entitled to our opinions.
Click to expand...
DeniseNY said:
Not all Catholics here agree that it’s “demonic” so how can it be indicative of Catholic culture?
Click to expand...
A controversial thing doesn’t become less controversial just because one side insists the other should stop thinking it’s controversial. The disagreement about the nature of the disagreement just becomes part of the disagreement.

Also this might be my last comment on the topic because I don’t want to over-emphasize what I think the importance of this issue is compared to others (e.g. doctrinal teaching, one-on-one pastoral interactions).

I do think it’s insane to make completely unforced errors in our artistic self-presentation to the outside world (since in my view art is the site of a pastoral interaction, sometimes to thousands or millions of people at once, particularly with modern media) – but this is still one sculpture in one room and there are bigger issues on the Church’s plate overall.

It’s just, the degree of insanity in this sculpture, behind where the pope sits, in a world in which there are so many potential converts who already think the pope is evil and may be further disinclined to listen to anything useful a Catholic has to say by the psychological buffer this kind of: ‘Warning! Warning! James-Bond-villain-level presiding evil here!’ imagery conveys…

Agh.

There are just so many objectively beautiful things that could be behind the pope instead of this monstrosity. But turning to other things now for today; I think I’ve more than said my piece.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top