I reject some dogmas

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Whemsworth said:
To all those saying that something ain’t right with this thread let me give you some background. I came into the church 11 years ago and was told purgatory was no longer taught. I was obviously told wrong. Maybe I was never really catholic to begin with…I don’t know. I have have studied but believing because I’m told to does not work for me. I have tried that for a decade. I appreciate all your responses and will consider what you all said. Sorry for any typos. I’m on my phone and have big thumbs.
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My friend, I would encourage you to read my blog posts on purgatory. Perhaps they offer a new perspective. I was fundamentalist evangelical and purgatory is one of my favorite teachings now. It’s a message of hope for true transformation from sin and suffering and bring made perfect for heaven. It is simply the Refiners fire. Gods mercy truly purifying us and ridding us of the pain and suffering our sin causes us.

Part 1- findingthecatholicchurch.blogspot.com/2013/02/cs-lewis-believed-in-purgatory-rightly.html?m=1

Part 2. findingthecatholicchurch.blogspot.com/2013/03/purgatory-part-2-what-about-temporal.html?m=1
 
Whemsworth said:
Hello all,

Not trying to cause drama, but trying to get a question answered. I have asked this to two priests and a Bishop without an answer. I reject purgatory and the assumptiin of marry. I don’t doubt them, but wholeheartedly reject them. Am I excommunicated? Thank you and sorry to ask in this forum.
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My friend, rejecting purgatory and the assumption of Mary do not exist by themselves, it is usually a deeper question underneath those which you are struggling with. Unless you find out what that deeper question is, and find answers to it, you will never have peace in the Catholic Church.
 
Whemsworth said:
To all those saying that something ain’t right with this thread let me give you some background. I came into the church 11 years ago and was told purgatory was no longer taught. I was obviously told wrong. Maybe I was never really catholic to begin with…I don’t know. I have have studied but believing because I’m told to does not work for me. I have tried that for a decade. I appreciate all your responses and will consider what you all said. Sorry for any typos. I’m on my phone and have big thumbs.
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That’s a big issue and I wish the Bishop of whatever priest(assuming it was a priest) was made aware that blatant heresy was being taught and that you were misled.

Saying purgatory is no longer taught is like the Church just one day declaring that one of the Gospels isn’t scripture. That will never happen.

These issues don’t just go away, they only sometimes become more clear in going from doctrine to dogma.
 
po18guy said:
Would it not be simpler to find another Christian community (aka church) to join? Is it not YOU who are causing the drama?
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We should not divide simply because we don’t currently agree. It may be part of learning, especially learning how to love those we don’t agree with.

I put myself in the category - I don’t agree with everything yet - but please don’t throw me out while I am working on things!
 
Have to be careful with what just “makes sense”. For the office of Bishop to not be bought and sold also “makes sense”.
 
Markie_Boy said:
Have to be careful with what just “makes sense”. For the office of Bishop to not be bought and sold also “makes sense”.
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I think you’re twisting words here a bit.

What they were trying to say was that no matter the intentions of the Bishop consecrating another Bishop, so long as the Bishop lays his hands on a man and anoints the man’s hands (matter), and prays over the man and asks for the Holy Spirit to be poured out (form), it is a valid ordination. In the verses you cited, it said that we should not sell such offices because it’s highly immoral, which it is, and no one disagreed with, but your verse did not say, “If you sell the office of the Bishop, his orders are automatically made invalid.” All that matters is there was proper form and matter–you may have heard this before. All sacraments have a form and matter, and that is what makes them valid. In this case, the corrupt Bishop would make them illicit. But the sacrament being conferred illicitly or licitly has no effect on their validity. I suggest you read up more on the sacraments.

On another note, I’m sorry you were so grossly misinformed about Catholic beliefs. I too am a convert, and the Church spent at least five months making sure I knew exactly what I was getting myself into, the implication of my baptism, and the teachings of the faith. I’m sorry that’s not what you got.
 
Whemsworth said:
To all those saying that something ain’t right with this thread let me give you some background. I came into the church 11 years ago and was told purgatory was no longer taught. I was obviously told wrong. Maybe I was never really catholic to begin with…I don’t know. I have have studied but believing because I’m told to does not work for me. I have tried that for a decade. I appreciate all your responses and will consider what you all said. Sorry for any typos. I’m on my phone and have big thumbs.
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We don’t believe because we understand or because we are told.

We believe because it has been revealed to us by God through the Church.

Belief is a choice. People choose to believe all kinds of things every day.

-Tim-
 
Fauken said:
I think you’re twisting words here a bit.

What they were trying to say was that no matter the intentions of the Bishop consecrating another Bishop, so long as the Bishop lays his hands on a man and anoints the man’s hands (matter), and prays over the man and asks for the Holy Spirit to be poured out (form), it is a valid ordination. In the verses you cited, it said that we should not sell such offices because it’s highly immoral, which it is, and no one disagreed with, but your verse did not say, “If you sell the office of the Bishop, his orders are automatically made invalid.” All that matters is there was proper form and matter–you may have heard this before. All sacraments have a form and matter, and that is what makes them valid. In this case, the corrupt Bishop would make them illicit. But the sacrament being conferred illicitly or licitly has no effect on their validity. I suggest you read up more on the sacraments.

On another note, I’m sorry you were so grossly misinformed about Catholic beliefs. I too am a convert, and the Church spent at least five months making sure I knew exactly what I was getting myself into, the implication of my baptism, and the teachings of the faith. I’m sorry that’s not what you got.
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Thank you for the kind reply! I am really working on things. I’ll have to re-read this later, but thank you!
 
If someone rejects a dogma of the Church just what does that mean? Do you think the Church is wrong?

There is no doubt that a church can be wrong in its teaching. But if the Church is the real Church founded by Christ then it can’t be wrong in any of its dogmas (official teachings)

So if you think it is wrong, then you must conclude that the Church is just a church, not THE Church. So if you are honest with yourself you should leave.

When it comes to Church dogma it is all or nothing.

Now sometimes the issue is not with the dogma but the understanding of the dogma. Are you certain that you have a correct understanding of the Church teaching? Are you certain of your certainty?

What exactly is your problem with the Assumption and Purgatory? I don’t see how these affect anyone in their day to day life.
 
Whemsworth said:
Hello all,

Not trying to cause drama, but trying to get a question answered. I have asked this to two priests and a Bishop without an answer. I reject purgatory and the assumptiin of marry. I don’t doubt them, but wholeheartedly reject them. Am I excommunicated? Thank you and sorry to ask in this forum.
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To reject something totally takes great certainty. I wonder if it is more a case of believing the dogmas unlikely, or even highly unlikely? Anyway, if you are anything like me you can’t choose what to believe or not and at least you are open to exploring alternative ideas. I’d say just relax and trust you’ll know if a time comes when you know you are too distant from core beliefs to maintain communion.

Happy exploring!
 
So, you came into the church eleven years ago, and this is just now cropping up??? What is the explanation for this? Just curious why, now after all these years you are doubting so much. Seems like something else is going on here. I will pray for you.
 
Whemsworth said:
Hello all,

Not trying to cause drama, but trying to get a question answered. I have asked this to two priests and a Bishop without an answer. I reject purgatory and the assumptiin of marry. I don’t doubt them, but wholeheartedly reject them. Am I excommunicated? Thank you and sorry to ask in this forum.
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You have separated yourself from the teachings of the Church.

You have chosen to not be in communion with the Church.

Ex communion is simply the opposite of in communion.

Your choice. Your decision.
 
Whemsworth said:
Hello all,

Not trying to cause drama, but trying to get a question answered. I have asked this to two priests and a Bishop without an answer. I reject purgatory and the assumptiin of marry. I don’t doubt them, but wholeheartedly reject them. Am I excommunicated? Thank you and sorry to ask in this forum.
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Catholicism is simple: Take it or leave it.

Either believe or don’t believe.
 
Used2beSherryG said:
So, you came into the church eleven years ago, and this is just now cropping up??? What is the explanation for this? Just curious why, now after all these years you are doubting so much. Seems like something else is going on here. I will pray for you.
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It is not just now croppiing up. It is something that came about 5 years ago. I have read, studied, bought tapes, but seems contrary to scripture. I know that probably brings up a whole other issue. With the assumption the issue is that it was not mentioned, anywhere, for the first 500 years of the church. Even then the place it was discussed was condemned as heresy. Those are the issues in a nutshell.
 
Whemsworth said:
It is not just now croppiing up. It is something that came about 5 years ago. I have read, studied, bought tapes, but seems contrary to scripture. I know that probably brings up a whole other issue. With the assumption the issue is that it was not mentioned, anywhere, for the first 500 years of the church. Even then the place it was discussed was condemned as heresy. Those are the issues in a nutshell.
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I know you said you did your research, and I believe you, but this also seems to address some of the objections you mentioned.

catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/the-assumption-of-mary-in-history

What are your thoughts on this?
 
JB_Brother_4446 said:
Catholicism is simple: Take it or leave it.

Either believe or don’t believe.
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Yes, there are no such things as cafeteria-Catholics anymore.

Either you are a Catholic who believes what the Church teaches, or you are a protestant that attends Mass.
 
Whemsworth said:
It is not just now croppiing up. It is something that came about 5 years ago. I have read, studied, bought tapes, but seems contrary to scripture. I know that probably brings up a whole other issue. With the assumption the issue is that it was not mentioned, anywhere, for the first 500 years of the church. Even then the place it was discussed was condemned as heresy. Those are the issues in a nutshell.
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Friend, you know we have relics from pretty much everybody, right?

And we know the burial spots of them as well…

Except Mary…

And the Orthodox who split in 1054 pretty much hold the same beliefs on her, only refusing to make it dogma…

hmmmm
 
Lenten_ashes said:
Friend, you know we have relics from pretty much everybody, right?

And we know the burial spots of them as well…

Except Mary…

And the Orthodox who split in 1054 pretty much hold the same beliefs on her, only refusing to make it dogma…

hmmmm
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There are plenty of ancient figures whose burial places are unknown. That is hardly sufficient, but thanks for the comment.
 
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