I strongly suggest that you prove purgatory before preaching it.

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FINAL PURIFICATION

Protestants often scorn the idea of purgatory, yet many of them believe in it, or a form of it, without realizing. Common sense tells us that our sanctification is usually not complete when we die, though we know we will be perfectly sanctified in heaven. Thus between death and glory must come a purification. Certain passages of Scripture, such as Romans 14:10 and 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, speak of a judgment after death which will not be entirely pleasant even for the saved. Though Protestants do not have a developed theology of purgatory, some acknowledge it, or aspects of it, as the following quotations show.

C. S. LEWIS

( TWENTIETH-CENTURY ANGLICAN)

“Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden. At our age the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to him?” (Letters to Malcolm).

C. S. LEWIS

( TWENTIETH-CENTURY ANGLICAN)

“I believe in purgatory. . . . The right view returns magnificently in Newman’s Dream [of Gerontius]. There, if I remember it rightly, the saved soul, at the very foot of the throne, begs to be taken away and cleansed. It cannot bear for a moment longer ‘With its darkness to affront that light.’ . . . Our souls demand purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy’? Should we not reply, ‘With submission, Sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleansed first.’ ‘It may hurt, you know’—‘Even so, sir’” (ibid.).

JOHN MacARTHUR

( TWENTIETH-CENTURY BAPTIST)

“Many humanly impressive and seemingly beautiful and worthwhile works that Christians do in the Lord’s name will not stand the test in ‘that day.’ It ‘will become evident’ (v. 13) that the materials used were wood, hay, and straw. The workmen will not lose their salvation, but they will lose a portion of any reward they might be expecting. They ‘shall be saved, yet so as through fire.’ The thought here is of a person who runs through flames without being burned, but who has the smell of smoke on him—barely escaping! In the day of rewards, the useless evil things will be burned away, but salvation will not be forfeited” (1 Corinthians, on chapter 3).

(Edited as per Banned Topics Policy # 22)

catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9711word.asp
 
JimG,

The comment you made has caused me to ask these simple questions: (which have caused me a lot of grief in the past)

-Why would Jesus say such a thing? Why would he say “Take up your cross” when his followers had no clue as to what he was talking about at that particular time when he supposedly said it?

-Does “taking up our cross” somehow “purge” us from our sins as we go through life, or is there still a “purgatory” after death that we still need to go through?

-If God sends us “sufferings” (as some saints believe) is this the cross that helps us get to heaven? (even though Christ died for our sins)
 
JimG,

The comment you made has caused me to ask these simple questions: (which have caused me a lot of grief in the past)

-Why would Jesus say such a thing? Why would he say “Take up your cross” when his followers had no clue as to what he was talking about at that particular time when he supposedly said it?

-Does “taking up our cross” somehow “purge” us from our sins as we go through life, or is there still a “purgatory” after death that we still need to go through?

-If God sends us “sufferings” (as some saints believe) is this the cross that helps us get to heaven? (even though Christ died for our sins)
I’m sure that many books about been written about the issues you raise. Oddly, to us anyway, many saints did embrace suffering as a way to union with Christ. But sometimes only after first complaining against it. (St. Therese of Lisieux once complained to God in prayer, “if this is how you treat your friends, it’s no wonder that You have so few of them.”

I think it may be that sufferings offer us a way to detach ourselves from our sins. And it is our “attachments” to sin–even to forgiven sins, that need to be shucked away to perfect us for heaven.

I don’t know why Jesus made the comment about “taking up our cross,” at the particular time that he did. But even if his hearers did not realize that he was to take up his own cross, they must have understood, given the time and place that they lived, what it meant to take up a cross.

It is noteworthy that the portion of John’s Gospel which begins the narrative of the passion–the Last Supper, the final discourse, Jesus passion and death–is given the heading “The Book of Glory.”

I guess another consideration is that suffering comes to everyone, because we are human (and because we are fallen.) Uniting our inevitable sufferings to those of Christ gives them value. Because his sufferings have infinite value, so our sufferings joined to his become redemptive. That is why St. Paul speaks of “making up in my own body what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ.”

There is nothing lacking in the sufferings of Christ–except the sufferings of our own person which we give to him.
 
No problem. Biblical and Jewish Traditional Beliefs About PurgatoryIt’s too bad that you offer nothing more than your rhetorical interpretation of of a few cherry picked verses of scripture. The link above will take you to an actual Bible study with notes on the correlation between what the Bible teaches and what the Jews believe even today.Really? Yet that same Bosom of Abraham clearly indicates that, contrary to your assertion of “two places”, that there are indeed other “places” than simply Heaven and Hell.
Revelation 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;

Death and Hell… death…is a “place”, which certainly disproves your assertion.
Death is not a “Place” It is something that happens to us once in this body = and the unlucky ones twice - nto the lake of fire
1st Letter of Peter 3,18-20:

He was put to death in the flesh,but made alive in spirit,in which he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison,who in former times did not obey…
 
Death is not a “Place” It is something that happens to us once in this body = and the unlucky ones twice - [nto the lake of fire
1st Letter of Peter 3,18-20:

He was put to death in the flesh,but made alive in spirit,in which he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison,who in former times did not obey…
Here is another “Cherry picked scripture” for you:
Pro 16:25
(25) There is a way that seemeth to a man right: and the ends thereof lead to death.
It doesn’t matter what individuals “Believe” when the basis for the belief is traditions and the writtings of man.
[/quote]
 
Death is not a “Place” It is something that happens to us once in this body = and the unlucky ones twice - [nto the lake of fire
1st Letter of Peter 3,18-20:

He was put to death in the flesh,but made alive in spirit,in which he went and made a proclamation to the spirits in prison,who in former times did not obey…
I think if you check the original language you’ll discover that the word used there is 'Hades" which is indeed a place, better known as the abode of the dead.

Revised Standard New Testament: 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;
[/QUOTE]
 
Here is another “Cherry picked scripture” for you:
Pro 16:25
(25) There is a way that seemeth to a man right: and the ends thereof lead to death.
It doesn’t matter what individuals “Believe” when the basis for the belief is traditions and the writtings of man.
Seems to me that what I have offered is the Word of God. Are you willing to contend against it? 🤷
 
Being not very wise in the eyes of the world nor in the eyes of my All Knowing God, I humbly submit that St. Paul went to the “Third Heaven”, meaning that there must be levels of heaven and I submit that the first level is the the lowest level of purgatory and the second level is the highest level of purgatory.

But what matters is that we love God with all our hearts, all our soul, all our strength and our neighbor as ourselves.

We will find Total Truth when we meet our Triune God, but as a convert to Catholicism, I also humbly submit that the Catholic has a Fuller Truth than our Christian Brothers and Sisters - not to say that they don’t possess Truth - just not all of it. One can certainly go to heaven being a Protestant. And I submit that one can also go to heaven being a Hindu, a Muslim, a Buddhist if one is holy in his/her heart. And this is only possible because God came to earth and suffered so that we all might ascend to the Father’s House. But we must love God with all our Heart, all our Soul, all our might, and our neighbor as ourselves.

And it really does no good to try to prove one’s point. Just pray and love.
 
I think if you check the original language you’ll discover that the word used there is 'Hades" which is indeed a place, better known as the abode of the dead.

Revised Standard New Testament: 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;
I hope this is original enough

G2288
θάνατος
thanatos
Thayer Definition:
  1. the death of the body
    1a) that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended
    1b) with the implied idea of future misery in hell
    1b1) the power of death
    1c) since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest darkness, i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin
  2. metaphorically, the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name
    2a) the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell
  3. the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell
  4. in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell
    Part of Speech: noun masculine
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2348
    Citing in TDNT: 3:7, 312
    Death is a T H I N G! not a place.
 
Being not very wise in the eyes of the world nor in the eyes of my All Knowing God, I humbly submit that St. Paul went to the “Third Heaven”, meaning that there must be levels of heaven and I submit that the first level is the the lowest level of purgatory and the second level is the highest level of purgatory.
Can you give a source for this?
 
Can you give a source for this?
Once again - - a “Quote” of a non scriptural source. Paul indeed saw the Glorified Christ while on the Road to Damascus Acts 9:1-8.
Show me P U R G A T O R Y in the inspired word of God. . .Not what someone feels must exist because they feel something else exists.
We will be judged by the word of God only on judgement day . . . It would be a good idea to get to know it!
 
Once again - - a “Quote” of a non scriptural source. Paul indeed saw the Glorified Christ while on the Road to Damascus Acts 9:1-8.
Show me P U R G A T O R Y in the inspired word of God. . .Not what someone feels must exist because they feel something else exists.
We will be judged by the word of God only on judgement day . . . It would be a good idea to get to know it!
The Bible will judge us?

Or do you mean Christ, the Word of God?

I take it you’re not an advocate of sola scriptura or sola fide as these terms appear nowhere within Scripture either, correct?
 
Once again - - a “Quote” of a non scriptural source. Paul indeed saw the Glorified Christ while on the Road to Damascus Acts 9:1-8.
Show me P U R G A T O R Y in the inspired word of God. . .Not what someone feels must exist because they feel something else exists.
We will be judged by the word of God only on judgement day . . . It would be a good idea to get to know it!
This is a good website if you want a scriptural basis for purgatory.

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

Indeed, the institution that gave us the Bible believes this has strong Biblical support. Keep in mind that we (Catholics) can embrace extrabiblical truths; however, we completely agree that we cannot accept anti-biblical ideas. (things that contradict scripture)

Likewise, the words Trinity and Bible are not in the Bible.
Furthermore, the concept that the Bible is the final and sole rule of faith is nowhere to be found in the Bible. We believe this is a “tradition of man” born 1,500 years after God started the Church, “the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” (1 Tim 3:15)
 
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guanophore:
As requested, I will respond in my own words, we are all sinners and as such needed a saviour, Jesus was given as the ultimate sacrifice for my sin, when I believe on him and ask him to forgive my sins and turn from sinning he washes me clean in his blood, his payment was enough, is enough and always will be, I will never be perfect as God is perfect, I can only be perfected in him, he heals my wounds and forgives my sins, he has already, and purgatory is a scam, nothing more, nothing less… tell me why over history and even now in the present, people give money to the C.C to have thier love ones recieve favor in purgatory?
 
This is a good website if you want a scriptural basis for purgatory.

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

Indeed, the institution that gave us the Bible believes this has strong Biblical support. Keep in mind that we (Catholics) can embrace extrabiblical truths; however, we completely agree that we cannot accept anti-biblical ideas. (things that contradict scripture)

Likewise, the words Trinity and Bible are not in the Bible.
Furthermore, the concept that the Bible is the final and sole rule of faith is nowhere to be found in the Bible. We believe this is a “tradition of man” born 1,500 years after God started the Church, “the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” (1 Tim 3:15)
Here is a chance to be balanced this is a website that explains more about purgatory.
trueandreasonable.com/blog/default.aspx?id=12&t=Purgatory-Is-it-real-biblical
 
This is a good website if you want a scriptural basis for purgatory.

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

Indeed, the institution that gave us the Bible believes this has strong Biblical support. Keep in mind that we (Catholics) can embrace extrabiblical truths; however, we completely agree that we cannot accept anti-biblical ideas. (things that contradict scripture)

Likewise, the words Trinity and Bible are not in the Bible.
Furthermore, the concept that the Bible is the final and sole rule of faith is nowhere to be found in the Bible. We believe this is a “tradition of man” born 1,500 years after God started the Church, “the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” (1 Tim 3:15)
The bible came to us through 66 different authors inspired by the Hand of God all of which never once prayed the rosary, entered a Catholic Church or aknowledged a Pope, indeed the very person you say was the first pope said don’t worship me, when people started to kneel and kiss his hand, he said don’t do that, he pointed all the time to Jesus. so if the institution you refer to is the C.C then perhaps you should be searching elsewhere for the truth because the truth came to these 66 Authors perfectly without any assistance from the C.C.

Infact if it were left to the C.C we would not have the honor of having a copy of the Bible in which we could read and discuss.
thank God for seekers of the truth.
 
The Bible will judge us?

Or do you mean Christ, the Word of God?

I take it you’re not an advocate of sola scriptura or sola fide as these terms appear nowhere within Scripture either, correct?
Well pointed out, the Bible is not the Word of God, it is the words of God, Jesus is the The Word of God… finally I can find some truth here, wow… keep up the good work…
 
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