I strongly suggest that you prove purgatory before preaching it.

[Orionthehunter]

The bible came to us through 66 different authors inspired by the Hand of God all of which never once prayed the rosary, entered a Catholic Church or aknowledged a Pope, indeed the very person you say was the first pope said don’t worship me, when people started to kneel and kiss his hand, he said don’t do that, he pointed all the time to Jesus. so if the institution you refer to is the C.C then perhaps you should be searching elsewhere for the truth because the truth came to these 66 Authors perfectly without any assistance from the C.C.

Infact if it were left to the C.C we would not have the honor of having a copy of the Bible in which we could read and discuss.
thank God for seekers of the truth.

Regarding that which is bolded, you are correct that the Holy Spirit inspired these authors (are you sure there are 66?) but it was the Magisterium of the Catholic Church which selected (inspired by the Holy Spirit) the Canon of the Bible and excluded other writings that were deemed by the Magisterium (inspired and directed by the Holy Spirit) as not inspired Scripture.

Regarding what is italicized, this is so bereft of truth as to be a scandalous lie. The truth is if it weren’t for the diligence of the Catholic Church and the laboring of monks who both preserved the text and hand copied them, you wouldn’t have a Bible to read.

Regarding what is underlined, I agree. However, if your post is representative of your truthfulness, you appear to be in need of some self-examination on whether you fit the bill.

 

[christcnection1]

As requested, I will respond in my own words, we are all sinners and as such needed a saviour, Jesus was given as the ultimate sacrifice for my sin, when I believe on him and ask him to forgive my sins and turn from sinning he washes me clean in his blood, his payment was enough, is enough and always will be, I will never be perfect as God is perfect, I can only be perfected in him, he heals my wounds and forgives my sins, he has already, and purgatory is a scam, nothing more, nothing less… tell me why over history and even now in the present, people give money to the C.C to have thier love ones recieve favor in purgatory?

Wow, I just don’t know what to say to that…

Well, let me take this approach. This is where we agree.

“we are all sinners and as such needed a saviour”

Amen. No doubt about it.

“Jesus was given as the ultimate sacrifice for my sin”

We absolutely believe that as well.

“I believe on him and ask him to forgive my sins and turn from sinning he washes me clean in his blood, his payment was enough, is enough and always will be.”

We also agree, just not in the same way.

“I will never be perfect as God is perfect, I can only be perfected in him”

This is where we start to diverge… maybe. In heaven, we will be perfect (in that we will no longer be sinners, or be able to sin). We also believe that we can only be perfected in Him. It’s through His grace alone that He purifies us and makes us truly holy.

What does it say about Jesus if He commands us to do something we cannot? (…not something good) It can only be done through His grace alone.

If I am understanding you correctly, many Protestants would disagree with you on this point.

“he heals my wounds and forgives my sins, he has already”

Yes, we agree with that too.

“purgatory is a scam, nothing more, nothing less”

Hmm… sorry. :nope:

Please prove to us that the Catholic Church’s doctrine of purgatory is a scam. I would very much like to know the historical basis for this one. I think we all would.

“tell me why over history and even now in the present, people give money to the C.C to have thier love ones recieve favor in purgatory”

Any abuses in the Church in the past were not part of Catholic teaching. Likewise, Evangelicals who steal money from their church members are not representing the beliefs of their particular denomination.

If a person would like to have a Mass offered up for a loved one, but they have no money, this is not a problem. It will be offered up for them anyway.

catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

Money, Money, Money

One argument anti-Catholics often use to attack purgatory is the idea that the Catholic Church makes money from promulgating the doctrine. Without purgatory, the claim asserts, the Church would go broke. Any number of anti-Catholic books claim the Church owes the majority of its wealth to this doctrine. But the numbers just don’t add up.

When a Catholic requests a memorial Mass for the dead—that is, a Mass said for the benefit of someone in purgatory—it is customary to give the parish priest a stipend, on the principles that the laborer is worth his hire (Luke 10:7) and that those who preside at the altar share the altar’s offerings (1 Cor. 9:13–14). In the United States, a stipend is commonly around five dollars; but the indigent do not have to pay anything. A few people, of course, freely offer more. This money goes to the parish priest, and priests are only allowed to receive one such stipend per day. No one gets rich on five dollars a day, and certainly not the Church, which does not receive the money anyway.

But look at what happens on a Sunday. There are often hundreds of people at Mass. In a crowded parish, there may be thousands. Many families and individuals deposit five dollars or more into the collection basket; others deposit less. A few give much more. A parish might have four or five or six Masses on a Sunday. The total from the Sunday collections far surpasses the paltry amount received from the memorial Masses.

My friend in Christ, you will not make a dent on this thread with shallow, baseless, and weak arguments. Some of your points are totally true and perfectly in line with the Bible as we see it.

Please do yourself a favor and deal with the facts of our Church instead of a caricature version of them. This helps no one - especially yourself.

I do not speak this out of condemnation; I speak this out of love.

God Bless,
JB

 

[christcnection1]

Here is a chance to be balanced this is a website that explains more about purgatory.
trueandreasonable.com/blog/default.aspx?id=12&t=Purgatory-Is-it-real-biblical

This article is about as “balanced” as a drunken sailor on hurricane ravaged ship.

Yes, it’s their opinion of the Bible and how it ought to be interpreted, but it’s not balanced.

Hey, I love them anyway. I just wish they would be less inclined to mischaracterize what we truly believe. As a former Evangelical, I know all this stuff.

God Bless,
JB

 

[Orionthehunter]

When a Catholic requests a memorial Mass for the dead—that is, a Mass said for the benefit of someone in purgatory—it is customary to give the parish priest a stipend, on the principles that the laborer is worth his hire (Luke 10:7) and that those who preside at the altar share the altar’s offerings (1 Cor. 9:13–14). In the United States, a stipend is commonly around five dollars; but the indigent do not have to pay anything. A few people, of course, freely offer more. This money goes to the parish priest, and priests are only allowed to receive one such stipend per day. No one gets rich on five dollars a day, and certainly not the Church, which does not receive the money anyway.

But look at what happens on a Sunday. There are often hundreds of people at Mass. In a crowded parish, there may be thousands. Many families and individuals deposit five dollars or more into the collection basket; others deposit less. A few give much more. A parish might have four or five or six Masses on a Sunday. The total from the Sunday collections far surpasses the paltry amount received from the memorial Masses.

God Bless,
JB

I don’t know about tradition, but our diocese has a $5 suggested donation for memorial Masses and the money (probably a couple of thousand dollars a year) is then added to the Social Concerns budget for gifts to relief and charities in our community.

 

[christcnection1]

The bible came to us through 66 different authors inspired by the Hand of God

Hmm… all different ones? That’s news to me.

all of which never once prayed the rosary

You’re point? Haha…

entered a Catholic Church or aknowledged a Pope

The Apostle’s Creed acknowledge the “Catholic Church.” The early Church Fathers acknowledged the Pope. The Bible clearly commands apostolic succession and apostolic authority.

, indeed the very person you say was the first pope said don’t worship me,

Okay… hmm… maybe we really shouldn’t worship the Pope anymore?

when people started to kneel and kiss his hand

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=154149&highlight=kissing+pope%27s+ring

“The ring is a symbol of the bishop’s authority. Kissing the ring of a bishop is done as a sign of respect for the authority of the bishop. In more chivalrous times, men would kiss the hand of a woman as a gesture of respect for her. Just as there was nothing wrong with kissing a woman’s hand, so there is nothing wrong with kissing a bishop’s ring.”

he said don’t do that, he pointed all the time to Jesus. so if the institution you refer to is the C.C then perhaps you should be searching elsewhere for the truth because the truth came to these 66 Authors perfectly without any assistance from the C.C.

Wow, you’ve really backed us into a corner now. Hehe…

Infact if it were left to the C.C we would not have the honor of having a copy of the Bible in which we could read and discuss.
thank God for seekers of the truth.

Yes… so true… Because the First Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Church founded in 350AD made sure that the Bible was canonized, copied, preserved, and kept safe from the terrible demonic institution known as the Catholic Church.

:ehh:

Come on man… I love you… Don’t do this to yourself.

God Bless,
JB

 

[christcnection1]

I don’t know about tradition, but our diocese has a $5 suggested donation for memorial Masses and the money (probably a couple of thousand dollars a year) is then added to the Social Concerns budget for gifts to relief and charities in our community.

I think ours is $10, but we are in a fairly wealthy parish. If anyone did not have money, they would never make them pay. This is merely a token of appreciate.

I think parish priests get paid less than most clergy. Do you know of any statistics on that?

 

[revmarty]

JimG,

The comment you made has caused me to ask these simple questions: (which have caused me a lot of grief in the past)

-Why would Jesus say such a thing? Why would he say “Take up your cross” when his followers had no clue as to what he was talking about at that particular time when he supposedly said it?

-Does “taking up our cross” somehow “purge” us from our sins as we go through life, or is there still a “purgatory” after death that we still need to go through?

-If God sends us “sufferings” (as some saints believe) is this the cross that helps us get to heaven? (even though Christ died for our sins)

the Cross was known as a form of torture to the followers of Jesus lond before he was crucified, People were often crucified in public and they would take up their cross and walk to the place of crucifixion. don’t think Jesus didn’t relate his words to the time he was in.
Why would purgatory be necessary if Christ’s death is sufficient? It wouldn’t. Obviously, there are verses that are quoted to try and make the case for a purgatory but they are incorrectly quoted.

 

[christcnection1]

Well pointed out (Teflon93), the Bible is not the Word of God, it is the words of God, Jesus is the The Word of God… finally I can find some truth here, wow… keep up the good work…

Yes, keep up the good work Teflon93! You are a faithful Catholic child of God, and follower of His holy Church!

 

[revmarty]

christcnection1:
Thank you I love you too,

Please don’t be cruel, the fundamental difference between C.C and the Bible believing, spirit filled freaks is and always has been that we read the Bible and beleive it can stand alone, because God is good however he has allowed history to confirm the Bibles teachings and stories as factual, Catholics believe the C.C is the ultimate and final word this is based on the assumption that they have their humble beginnings based in scripture, because you believe this anything anyone else outside the C.C states is wrong, you can’t argue with these kinds of People. but you can Love them.

 

[revmarty]

My friend in Christ, you will not make a dent on this thread with shallow, baseless, and weak arguments. Some of your points are totally true and perfectly in line with the Bible as we see it.

Please do yourself a favor and deal with the facts of our Church instead of a caricature version of them. This helps no one - especially yourself.

I do not speak this out of condemnation; I speak this out of love.

God Bless,
JB

I thank you for pointing out were we agree and disagree, thanks.
One question if purgatory exist because we need cleansing and there is no sin in heaven, which i Believe, were did the Devil live before he sinned?

 

[revmarty]

Regarding that which is bolded, you are correct that the Holy Spirit inspired these authors (are you sure there are 66?) but it was the Magisterium of the Catholic Church which selected (inspired by the Holy Spirit) the Canon of the Bible and excluded other writings that were deemed by the Magisterium (inspired and directed by the Holy Spirit) as not inspired Scripture.

The Apocrypha are not included in my total.

Regarding what is italicized, this is so bereft of truth as to be a scandalous lie. The truth is if it weren’t for the diligence of the Catholic Church and the laboring of monks who both preserved the text and hand copied them, you wouldn’t have a Bible to read

Self examination leaves me wanting. thanks for Grace

 

[christcnection1]

Thank you I love you too,

Please don’t be cruel, the fundamental difference between C.C and the Bible believing, spirit filled freaks is and always has been that we read the Bible and beleive it can stand alone, because God is good however he has allowed history to confirm the Bibles teachings and stories as factual, Catholics believe the C.C is the ultimate and final word this is based on the assumption that they have their humble beginnings based in scripture, because you believe this anything anyone else outside the C.C states is wrong, you can’t argue with these kinds of People. but you can Love them.

Keep studying my friend…

Most converts here made the leap to the Catholic faith because they thought it was more Biblical.

Within the last few years there have been hundreds of Protestant ministers and pastors who have converted to the Catholic Church in the U.S. This will likely continue!

www.chnetwork.org

You can have reasonable scriptural arguments with people here. Do not pretend that we are closed to what the Bible has to say. Most of us are not robots, but have seriously thought these things through.

I love my separated brethren (the Protestants), but many have a bad habit of distorting what we truly believe. At the very least, most of them are terribly ignorant. (Many Catholics are no better.)

I also suggest that you work on your grammatical skills. I’m not saying this to be rude. I’m merely giving you some constructive criticism, so that you’ll be better able to dialogue on these important issues.

When you rip down the Catholic faith based on false understandings, you’re doing an injustice to yourself and others. We can have a fruitful discussion without resorting to demonization.

God Bless,
JB

 

[christcnection1]

I thank you for pointing out were we agree and disagree, thanks.
One question if purgatory exist because we need cleansing and there is no sin in heaven, which i Believe, were did the Devil live before he sinned?

What’s your point?

7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”

13When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

(Revelations 12:7-17)

Now, I have a question for you…

Who is the woman in Revelations 12? The Bible says we are her offspring.

If you want to discuss this issue, fine, but start a new thread. Let’s keep this focused on topic. (Purgatory)

 

[revmarty]

What’s your point?

7And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”

13When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. 15Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. 16But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. 17Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

(Revelations 12:7-17)

Now, I have a question for you…

Who is the woman in Revelations 12? The Bible says we are her offspring.

If you want to discuss this issue, fine, but start a new thread. Let’s keep this focused on topic. (Purgatory)

man you have a lot of time on your hands, my point is this there is a flaw in your theory because, the devil, Lucifer, dragon what ever, turned on God whilst in heaven. so if purgatory ready’s us for heaven because heaven doesn’t allow sin or anything less than perfection, what went wrong. Just an observation.

 

[christcnection1]

man you have a lot of time on your hands, my point is this there is a flaw in your theory because, the devil, Lucifer, dragon what ever, turned on God whilst in heaven. so if purgatory ready’s us for heaven because heaven doesn’t allow sin or anything less than perfection, what went wrong. Just an observation.

Hehe… yes I do have a lot of time on my hands (until I am in Papua New Guinea that is )

I’ll be honest, I do not understand your logic at all. I do not see a connection at all. Please reword your question (and maybe in more than one way). It could be I’m just reading it wrong.

(Does anyone else know what he means by this??)

God Bless,
JB

 

[revmarty]

Keep studying my friend…

Most converts here made the leap to the Catholic faith because they thought it was more Biblical.

 

[christcnection1]

your Point ? there are more people becoming athiest than ever, your point is?
www.chnetwork.org

 

[Orionthehunter]

The bible came to us through 66 different authors inspired by the Hand of God all of which never once prayed the rosary, entered a Catholic Church or aknowledged a Pope, indeed the very person you say was the first pope said don’t worship me, when people started to kneel and kiss his hand, he said don’t do that, he pointed all the time to Jesus. so if the institution you refer to is the C.C then perhaps you should be searching elsewhere for the truth because the truth came to these 66 Authors perfectly without any assistance from the C.C.

Infact if it were left to the C.C we would not have the honor of having a copy of the Bible in which we could read and discuss.
thank God for seekers of the truth.

My understanding may not be shared by you but that does not make it false.

 

[revmarty]

However, as the first post of yours shows, your understanding is based on false premises.

You say this because I don’t support the theory that the C.C have been spouting, the theory is that the C.C and the church Jesus and the apostles founded are one in the same.

First, the Magisterium of the Catholic Church determined the Canon. Luther decided that the Apochypha didn’t belong. To deny the role of the Church in the Canon is to perpetrate a lie. I bolded an outright misrepresentation.

Second, to make the claim that the Catholic Church did not preserve, copy, and distribute the hand-written Bibles until the advent of the printing press (coincidentally at the same time of the Reformation) and in fact wanted the Bible to be hidden is a lie. You are basing your accusation on actions taken because of poor and faulty translations were being presented as the Bible. Nearly all parishes had Bible’s that were available to public. Unfortunately, becuase they were hand-written, they were not available to the public.

Again your reading from that same Hymn book…

 

[christcnection1]

Again your reading from that same Hymn book…