I was converted from Catholicism to Christ at the age of 19.

[mikeledes]

That point of that parable is forgiveness.

The believer is to forgive much, as he has been forgiven much.

He also says the following to the disciples:

**35"My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart." **

God Bless,
Michael

 

[sandusky]

He also says the following to the disciples:

35"My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

God Bless,
Michael

This is how Paul puts the same thing:**Ephesians 4:32

Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.**It’s a didactic teaching. A parable.

Tear it apart if you will, but the point is clear, and simple: the believer is to forgive much, because he has been forgiven much.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

This is how Paul puts the same thing:Ephesians 4:32

Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.It’s a didactic teaching. A parable.

Tear it apart if you will, but the point is clear, and simple: the believer is to forgive much, because he has been forgiven much.

More from Paul:

Gal 5
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, **that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. **
Gal 6

7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature[a]will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time** we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.**

 

[mikeledes]

This is how Paul puts the same thing:Ephesians 4:32

Be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you.It’s a didactic teaching. A parable.

Tear it apart if you will, but the point is clear, and simple: the believer is to forgive much, because he has been forgiven much.

And my point is that the servant thrown to the torturers and described as wicked was a believer. And Jesus warns his apostles that they will suffer the same fate if they do not forgive.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[sandusky]

And my point is that the servant thrown to the torturers and described as wicked was a believer. And Jesus warns his apostles that they will suffer the same fate if they do not forgive.

God Bless,
Michael

That’s because Catholic soteriology, though it gives a sideways glance, and a nod to grace, is really a soteriology of salvation by works, and that always comes out when one speaks to an adherent of the CC.

That’s clearly demonstrated in the concern you express in your statement above.

 

[mikeledes]

That’s because Catholic soteriology, though it gives a sideways glance, and a nod to grace, is really a soteriology of salvation by works, and that always comes out when one speaks to an adherent of the CC.

That’s clearly demonstrated in the concern you express in your statement above.

**34"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35"My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart." **

Those are the words of Christ, not my own.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[sandusky]

**34"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35"My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart." **

Those are the words of Christ, not my own.

God Bless,
Michael

That’s works, and not grace.

The effects of replacement theology are evident almost 2,000 years after it was wrongly believed, and incorporated into the liturgy, worship and theology.

 

[jmcrae]

That’s works, and not grace.

Are you saying Christ didn’t know His own Gospel?

 

[sandusky]

Are you saying Christ didn’t know His own Gospel?

The discussion on this thread has been for me, and I’ve said so, that the CC Gospel is different from that of Christ’s.

 

[mikeledes]

That’s works, and not grace.

The effects of replacement theology are evident almost 2,000 years after it was wrongly believed, and incorporated into the liturgy, worship and theology.

I don’t see what this has to d with what Christ said. He said to his apostles that their Heavenly Father will treat them the same way the servant is treated in the parable if they do not forgive.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[jmcrae]

The discussion on this thread has been for me, and I’ve said so, that the CC Gospel is different from that of Christ’s.

It’s Christ who tells us very plainly that we must do good works, and avoid committing sin. Was He “denying the effects of grace”, by insisting that we live in grace?

(Perhaps He hadn’t read any out-of-context snippets of the writings of St. Paul, to set Him straight! )

 

[sandusky]

It’s Christ who tells us very plainly that we must do good works, and avoid committing sin. Was He “denying the effects of grace”, by insisting that we live in grace?

(Perhaps He hadn’t read any out-of-context snippets of the writings of St. Paul, to set Him straight! )

What’s being discussed is a parable, not the Gospel.

The point of the parable is forgiveness; the one forgiven much must be forgiven (cf Eph 4:32).

 

[jmcrae]

What’s being discussed is a parable, not the Gospel.

The parable is part of the Gospel.

The point of the parable is forgiveness; the one forgiven much must be forgiven (cf Eph 4:32).

I think you meant “must forgive.” Yes. If he has been forgiven, then he must also forgive, or else God (represented by the King) will rescind his original forgiveness, and send him into “prison” (Hell? Purgatory? Definitely not Heaven!) unti he pays the last farthing.

Why?

Because it is by our actions - obedience vs. disobedience - that we determine our character, and thus, our final outcome - Heaven, or Hell.

 

[sandusky]

I don’t see what this has to d with what Christ said. He said to his apostles that their Heavenly Father will treat them the same way the servant is treated in the parable if they do not forgive.

God Bless,
Michael

You see it that way because Catholic soteriology, though it gives a sideways glance, and a nod to grace, is really a soteriology of salvation by works, and that always comes out when one speaks to an adherent of the CC.

That’s clearly demonstrated in the concern you express in your statement above.

Your seeing it that way is an effect of replacement theology evident almost 2,000 years after it was wrongly believed by the Early Church, and incorporated into their liturgy, worship and theology.

Israel and the Church: the Origin and Effects of Replacement Theology

 

[mikeledes]

You see it that way because Catholic soteriology, though it gives a sideways glance, and a nod to grace, is really a soteriology of salvation by works, and that always comes out when one speaks to an adherent of the CC.

That’s clearly demonstrated in the concern you express in your statement above.

Your seeing it that way is an effect of replacement theology evident almost 2,000 years after it was wrongly believed by the Early Church, and incorporated into their liturgy, worship and theology.

Israel and the Church: the Origin and Effects of Replacement Theology

That is pure theory tnat is not even universally accepted by Calvinists. Moreover, that has nothing to do with my post:

]**34"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35"My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart." **

Those are the words of Christ, not my own. I interpret as stated and written.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[jmcrae]

You see it that way because Catholic soteriology, though it gives a sideways glance, and a nod to grace, is really a soteriology of salvation by works, and that always comes out when one speaks to an adherent of the CC.

It is Jesus who said that if he does not forgive, he will not be forgiven, and the forgiveness he had already received would be taken away from him.

Was Jesus confused about the Gospel message? Was Jesus confused about how His grace operates?

Why would Jesus say that our forgiveness will be taken away, if we don’t forgive those who are in our debt, if it is not really true?

 

[sandusky]

The parable is part of the Gospel.



I think you meant “must forgive.” Yes. If he has been forgiven, then he must also forgive, or else God (represented by the King) will rescind his original forgiveness, and send him into “prison” (Hell? Purgatory? Definitely not Heaven!) unti he pays the last farthing.

Why?

Because it is by our actions - obedience vs. disobedience - that we determine our character, and thus, our final outcome - Heaven, or Hell.

The parable is about forgiveness.

The believer is to forgive much, because he’s been forgiven much.

The Gospel teaches that consignment to hell is on the basis of “unbelief.”

Your allegorizing, and spiritualizing a parable. :whacky:

 

[jmcrae]

The parable is about forgiveness.

The believer is to forgive much, because he’s been forgiven much.

And if he doesn’t, then what happens to him? (Psst, he goes to Hell!)

The Gospel teaches that consignment to hell is on the basis of “unbelief.”

Unbelief is certainly one of the many roads to Hell, yes.

Your allegorizing, and spiritualizing a parable. :whacky:

Um, yeah. A parable is a spiritual allegory, so why would I not spiritualize it and allegorize it?

 

[mikeledes]

And if he doesn’t, then what happens to him? (Psst, he goes to Hell!)

Unbelief is certainly one of the many roads to Hell, yes.

Um, yeah. A parable is a spiritual allegory, so why would I not spiritualize it and allegorize it?

**34"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35"My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart." **

the end of that unforgiving servant does not sound very good. It also says that Christians that don’t forgive will suffer the same fate. You can’t get any clearer than that.

BTW, I’m surprised this thread is still open. It’s way past the 1000 post limit.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[sandusky]

And if he doesn’t, then what happens to him? (Psst, he goes to Hell!)

Unbelief is certainly one of the many roads to Hell, yes.

Um, yeah. A parable is a spiritual allegory, so why would I not spiritualize it and allegorize it?

It’s a parable.

A didactic teaching, not a dogmatic teaching.

The Gospel of Christ is a Gospel of grace and peace, not one of tyranny in which God will eternally damn one of His elect because he hasn’t forgiven someone.

IMO, you and mikeledes (and others) don’t understand the Gospel of the grace of Jesus Christ.

I hope your works provide you all the merit you need to earn your salvation.