I went to a Ukrainian Divine Liturgy, but the people were pushy

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I had the privilege to attend an Eastern Catholic Divine Liturgy recently, and I must say it was most beautiful. Most interestingly, I have recignized many similarities between the DL and the Extraordinary form of the Roman Mass, and so it has helped my appreciate the Extraordinary form better.

The Catholic Church is composed of 2 lungs: the East and the West. I think this experience would be an example of what this statement meant.
 
hamburglar said:
We have different ways of celebrating our liturgies. And that is perfectly fine. The theology is the same, we just choose to express it in different ways.
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That’s not what the church documents say. They say it isn’t a difference only of liturgy. They say it is a difference in theology, too. They say this difference in theology is not an obstacle to unity and that we share the same faith, expressed through different theologies which are reflected in our different liturgies.

CCEO
A rite is the liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony, culture and circumstances of history of a distinct people, by which its own manner of living the faith is manifested in each Church sui iuris.
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Orientale Lumen
Our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters are very conscious of being the living bearers of this tradition, together with our Orthodox brothers and sisters. The members of the Catholic Church of the Latin tradition must also be fully acquainted with this treasure and thus feel, with the Pope, a passionate longing that the full manifestation of the Church’s catholicity be restored to the Church and to the world, expressed not by a single tradition, and still less by one community in opposition to the other; and that we too may be granted a full taste of the divinely revealed and undivided heritage of the universal Church which is preserved and grows in the life of the Churches of the East as in those of the West.
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“In the study of revealed truth East and West have used different methods and approaches in understanding and confessing divine things. It is hardly surprising, then, if sometimes one tradition has come nearer to a full appreciation of some aspects of a mystery of revelation than the other, or has expressed them better. In such cases, these various theological formulations are often to be considered complementary rather than conflicting.”
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Indeed, in comparison to any other culture, the Christian East has a unique and privileged role as the original setting where the Church was born. The Christian tradition of the East implies a way of accepting, understanding and living faith in the Lord Jesus. In this sense it is extremely close to the Christian tradition of the West, which is born of and nourished by the same faith. Yet it is legitimately and admirably distinguished from the latter, since Eastern Christians have their own way of perceiving and understanding, and thus an original way of living their relationship with the Savior. Here, with respect and trepidation, I want to approach the act of worship which these Churches express, rather than to identify this or that specific theological point which has emerged down the centuries in the polemical debates between East and West.
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Certain features of the spiritual and theological tradition, common to the various Churches of the East mark their sensitivity to the forms taken by the transmission of the Gospel in Western lands.
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It continues on in the same way.
 
Woodstock said:
That’s not what the church documents say. They say it isn’t a difference only of liturgy. They say it is a difference in theology, too. They say this difference in theology is not an obstacle to unity and that we share the same faith, expressed through different theologies which are reflected in our different liturgies.

CCEO
Orientale Lumen
It continues on in the same way.
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I’m sure that he meant that the Faith is the same, but that our expressions (theologies) of it differ. He may not be aware of the technical meanings of these terms, as he is apparently new to such discussions. 🙂

Peace and God bless!
 
hamburglar said:
I just got back from a Ukrainian Divine Liturgy. A group of about 10 people from my college went to experience Eastern Catholicism. While the Divine Liturgy itself was nice, and the people were friendly and welcoming, some of them seemed to be a little pushy and arguing that Eastern Catholicism is right and Roman Catholics are wrong.

I kept on receiving comments such as that Rome persecuted all of the Eastern Catholics and that they broke off from the Eastern Churches. I was getting stuff like, “The Pope wanted power, and was threatened by the Eastern Churches, so he sent the crusades” or “Rome says that Roman Catholics had enough with Eastern Catholics, but in actuality, the Eastern Catholics did away with the Roman Church, Rome just wants you to think that the Eastern Churches broke away instead of the Western Church breaking away because they were threatened by Eastern Power.”

There were many other comments. I was presented with warped views of Roman Catholicism Theology, and why the Eastern Church is the original church, the Western Church claims they are the first.

I also received comments that Rome suppresses the power of the Patriarchs, and Eastern Catholics do the sign of the cross the right way. They also seemed to have a hate for statues, and said icons were they only things acceptable.

I felt like I was being shunned for being a Roman Catholic. Is this actually what Eastern Catholics think, or was this just a bad experience? I really felt like I was being bombarded by Fundamentalist Protestants who think the Papacy is all about power.

Also, this was a Ukrainian Catholic Church, and they follow the Pope. But they really did seem to have a hate for the Papacy.
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Common sense isn’t a human commodity, and besides, you can’t fix stupid.
 
The reason that I am switching is because I have never felt agape like I’ve felt it in the UGCC.
 
To the OP: an additional realization just occurred to me…

I’ve noticed that what Ukrainians as a culture consider to be “socially acceptable” pushiness is just a bit past what most US citizens find acceptable. What they felt was simply being open and honest may be the “Slavic bluntness” that I’ve encountered in various slavs (Ukrainians, Russians, Rusyns, and others).

As a rule, culturally slavic individuals tend to be, well, blunt in telling it like they see it. Boisterous argument is a cultural norm. (Just look at classical Russian literature… the guys go off, get drunk, and engage in debates, while the ladies go off and gossip… and both sides get weird ideas and wild hairs.)

Heck, even the Russo-Alaskans tend to do so. When I begged off vespers for being a Carpetho-Rusyn Byzantine Catholic, the Orthodox Priest (OCA), cut me off brusquely, stating “Vespers at 6, Matins at 10. Confession follows vespers if you wish to receive communion.” An extended debate then followed, grins and raised voices, with a couple visiting Ukrainians joining in.
 
hamburglar said:
I just got back from a Ukrainian Divine Liturgy …while the people were friendly and welcoming, some of them seemed to be a little pushy and arguing that Eastern Catholicism is right and Roman Catholics are wrong.
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*** Ha Ha Ha Ha!***

Misconceptions/misunderstandings occur in EVERY form of religion (witness certain radical Muslims who believe that they can kill innocent men/women/children).

Besides, in the Roman Diocese where live, I’ve found more Roman Catholics who disrespect the pope than in people who belong the Ukrainian Catholic Church.

That’s one reason why I changed my Rite to the Ukrainian Catholic Church (the other reason is that I’ve found Liturgical abuse to be non existent in the Eastern Catholic Church - where in my Roman Diocese it’s literally become a bishop approved Liturgical “free for all”).
 
Hi Hamburglar,

“Roman Catholic” is a term to be avoided altogether. It was first given us by Anglicans who pretended to be Anglican Catholics and is now used to signify our allegiance to the Pope. In this sense, the term would also apply to Eastern Cathollics who, of course don’t care for the term.

Although, strictly speaking, most of us here are of the Roman Rite, which is a branch of the Latin Rite, using the term “Roman Catholic” leads to all kinds of misunderstandings.

“Latin Rite Catholic” fills the bill and causes no problems.I suggest you use it in future.

Verbum
 
mardukm said:
Dear brother Hamburglar,

How did you manage to get all those comments while you were visiting? Did you approach the members? did they approach you? Did you go to their “coffee hour” after DL? Were any other members trying to defend the unity of the Church or the Pope?

However, I am willing to assume they were only joking around on that point, and you might have taken it personally in the context of their other comments to you.

BTW, how did you respond to their comments?

Blessings,
Marduk
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If it was anything like my visit to an Antiocian Divine Liturgie…they manage to spot a RC from a mile away. 😃 I doubt they were joking as they were all dead serious.But that’s life. I just let them spout off and smiled and allowed them to vent their silly ideas. Since it was their playground, I let them show their brand of Christian love. :rolleyes:
 
I love Ukrainians. Of the various Eastern Churches, they along with the Maronites are closest to Rome in their spirituality.
 
Verbum said:
Hi Hamburglar,

“Roman Catholic” is a term to be avoided altogether. It was first given us by Anglicans who pretended to be Anglican Catholics and is now used to signify our allegiance to the Pope. In this sense, the term would also apply to Eastern Cathollics who, of course don’t care for the term.

Although, strictly speaking, most of us here are of the Roman Rite, which is a branch of the Latin Rite, using the term “Roman Catholic” leads to all kinds of misunderstandings.

“Latin Rite Catholic” fills the bill and causes no problems.I suggest you use it in future.

Verbum
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I don’t understand the difference between Roman Rite and Latin Rite.
 
hamburglar said:
I don’t understand the difference between Roman Rite and Latin Rite.
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There are a few different Rites in the Roman Church. Dominican, Mozarabic, and a couple others I’m spacing on at the moment. I assume that the poster was referring to these different Rites.

Peace and God bless!
 
Are you saying the Orthodox priest would allow you to receive communion?
Aramis said:
To the OP: an additional realization just occurred to me…

I’ve noticed that what Ukrainians as a culture consider to be “socially acceptable” pushiness is just a bit past what most US citizens find acceptable. What they felt was simply being open and honest may be the “Slavic bluntness” that I’ve encountered in various slavs (Ukrainians, Russians, Rusyns, and others).

As a rule, culturally slavic individuals tend to be, well, blunt in telling it like they see it. Boisterous argument is a cultural norm. (Just look at classical Russian literature… the guys go off, get drunk, and engage in debates, while the ladies go off and gossip… and both sides get weird ideas and wild hairs.)

Heck, even the Russo-Alaskans tend to do so. When I begged off vespers for being a Carpetho-Rusyn Byzantine Catholic, the Orthodox Priest (OCA), cut me off brusquely, stating “Vespers at 6, Matins at 10. Confession follows vespers if you wish to receive communion.” An extended debate then followed, grins and raised voices, with a couple visiting Ukrainians joining in.
Click to expand...
 
Maybe its time for the Holy Spirit to help the cardinals to elect an Eastern Catholic pope when the time comes
again…

Think what that would do for calming the fears…
 
Armenian_cpa said:
Maybe its time for the Holy Spirit to help the cardinals to elect an Eastern Catholic pope when the time comes
again…

Think what that would do for calming the fears…
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Ahhh, a fellow Catholic Armenian! Greetings and welcome to the forums! 👍

Peace and God bless!
 
Ghosty said:
Ahhh, a fellow Catholic Armenian! Greetings and welcome to the forums! 👍

Peace and God bless!
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My felicitations to our Armenian brethren. I still think Cardinal Agagianian would have made a good pope in '58.
 
Armenian_cpa said:
Maybe its time for the Holy Spirit to help the cardinals to elect an Eastern Catholic pope when the time comes
again…

Think what that would do for calming the fears…
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Wouldn’t the Eastern Catholic pope automatically become Roman Rite, since he would be the Bishop of Rome?
 
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