I would be more "open to life" if I could get my tubes tied!

[Dominique1234]

I just find it odd that you would be complaining so much about the finances and then pursuing such an effete and useless graduate degree. And yes, I know what I am talking about as my daughter decided not to pursue offered fellowships in French Enlightenment history because of this very reason. If you are worried about paying for your children’s activities and education, why not prepare yourself for an employable and well paying position?

If she’s an American, it makes NO sense to get such a useless degree… and one wonders why financially one couldn’t “afford” more children… hmmm sketchy if you ask moi.

Bien dit!

 

[Dominique1234]

I’ve said this a few times now but it bears repeating.

“Openness to life” as the Church means it is not a psychological disposition. It is not a desire. It is not about you at all, really. It is a property of the sexual act itself. So by definition is it is absolutely impossible to be “open to life” in the truly meritorious sense post-tubal ligation. You keep trying to talk yourself into circles on this and there is no way to get around it. A man can’t say he’s loyal to his wife even as he carries on multiple affairs; his actions prove his words either dishonest or meaningless. And a woman cannot say she is open to life even as she sterilizes herself so as never to bear another child.

It’s not really bafflement; maybe annoyance is a better word. And it’s far from bizarre. The common theme in your posts is what it is that *you *want, *your *needs, *your *desires, etc. It betrays a stunning lack of both submission and faith – submission to the will of God and faith that He will provide you with the means to carry out His will. It’s not about you or your needs or your desires. It’s about Him. You should live that every day of your life, whatever the cost to yourself. That’s the principle we call “dying to the world.” It’s what Peter Kreeft called “dying to your desires,” and more specifically, “dying to the ‘you’ in your desires.” You don’t get to Heaven by cultivating an unhealthy attachment to the world. Mary didn’t say to Gabriel, “Errr, maybe. Get back to me next week after I get back from the women’s studies conference.” When Christ called the sons of Zebedee to ministry they didn’t say “No way, man, I’ve got a sweet fishing gig going on here and I think I’m on the verge of a big break in my acting career.” It wasn’t about Mary and it wasn’t about James and John et al. It was about God. And submission to the will of God made Mary the queen of Heaven and Earth and enabled those twelve nice Jewish boys to conquer the Roman Empire. Is it any surprise Catholics are short with you when post after post involves you trying to rationalize how best to convince yourself that non serviam is a Catholic principle? It simply cannot be done, and we’re certainly not going to tell you otherwise, no matter how many posts you start on the issue.

Thanks for becoming Catholic and showing ‘catholics’ Truth! God bless you.

 

[MaryHelene]

I get it. I have three and am SO ready to move on to the next phase of my life, rather than being stuck in the pregnancy/newborn/breastfeeding stage indefinitely. The thought of becoming pregnant with a fourth makes me want to cry. I wish I had easy pregnancies and easy babies and could be more okay with the sacrifice it takes to grow babies and care for small children, but I’m not. I want to go back to school and work at some point. I want to be able to go for a weekend away with my husband. I want to sleep! I want my body back. I want to run a half marathon. I want to have some money left over at the end of the month for a date with my husband or some new shoes. I struggle with this issue too - you are not alone. And you are NOT a bad mom or an inferior woman because you do not want to commit to raising kids into your late 50s!

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Wow. Threads like this make me very sad. The OP is clearly scared and distressed. I would be too. So far she has been chided for not giving up her education/passion so that she will be able to fulfill her duty to have more kids. She has been called a bad mom, accused of resenting her children, and all around treated like dirt.

I get it, and she gets it. She cannot contracept. But it does not make her a bad mom for wanting to be something more than barefoot and pregnant. She has w certain amount of time, energy, and resources that she can give. It makes her a responsible parent and a good mom to realize that it would be unfair to spread herself so thin.

I’m sorry that you’re going through all of thi, but it is admirable that you are standing by your morals even when they present difficult problems.

 

[Eleanor61]

Wow. Threads like this make me very sad. The OP is clearly scared and distressed. I would be too. So far she has been chided for not giving up her education/passion so that she will be able to fulfill her duty to have more kids. She has been called a bad mom, accused of resenting her children, and all around treated like dirt.

I get it, and she gets it. She cannot contracept. But it does not make her a bad mom for wanting to be something more than barefoot and pregnant. She has w certain amount of time, energy, and resources that she can give. It makes her a responsible parent and a good mom to realize that it would be unfair to spread herself so thin.

I’m sorry that you’re going through all of thi, but it is admirable that you are standing by your morals even when they present difficult problems.

It is the barefoot and pregnant type of comments that are making it harder for people to be more compassionate. Others, as well as myself, have attempted to discuss this in a way to show that some of the OP’s ideas about large families are misnomers if not downright offensive, that other gifted women choose to put raising large families first, and that it is not impossible that God may expect her, as all of us, to put some of her more impractical and less important goals aside. All of this without anyone saying that she should abandon an apparently successful usage of NFP and get pregnant at the first opportunity and take on clearly more than she can handle. She is choosing to disregard the more balanced, compassionate, and helpful posts, as well as the more difficult spiritual ones and you are just abetting her in this.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

It is the barefoot and pregnant type of comments that are making it harder for people to be more compassionate. Others, as well as myself, have attempted to discuss this in a way to show that some of the OP’s ideas about large families are misnomers if not downright offensive, that other gifted women choose to put raising large families first, and that it is not impossible that God may expect her, as all of us, to put some of her more impractical and less important goals aside. All of this without anyone saying that she should abandon an apparently successful usage of NFP and get pregnant at the first opportunity and take on clearly more than she can handle. She is choosing to disregard the more balanced, compassionate, and helpful posts, as well as the more difficult spiritual ones and you are just abetting her in this.

She has said repeatedly that women who can raise a large number of kids are wonderful. But she is self-aware enough to know that she is not one of them. No where did she say that she doesn’t put her kids first, quite the opposite in fact.

And suggesting that her education is a waste and that she is obligated to do something that makes money to support kids that don’t exist yet, and kids that she doesn’t ever want to exist is crazy and offensive.

Many people feel that education is of great value, even if it doesn’t make much money. That’s a great value to have and one that she is certainly passing on to her children.

 

[jilly4ski]

She has said repeatedly that women who can raise a large number of kids are wonderful. But she is self-aware enough to know that she is not one of them. No where did she say that she doesn’t put her kids first, quite the opposite in fact.

And suggesting that her education is a waste and that she is obligated to do something that makes money to support kids that don’t exist yet, and kids that she doesn’t ever want to exist is crazy and offensive.

Many people feel that education is of great value, even if it doesn’t make much money. That’s a great value to have and one that she is certainly passing on to her children.

The problem is that she has expressed a desire for another child, but is going to deny this because she can’t have a child after that one. To many of us, this does not make sense and is not even logical. We are questioning this “self awareness” that tells her she can handle 3 children but not 4, when in most women’s experience 4 children is actually easier than 2 or 3. (Not that I would know personally). What is this “self awareness” based off of, the same misconceptions of large families that have been spouted off on this thread? Because that is not self awareness nor even truthful assessment of reality.

She wants another child (though not now as she is obviously stressed and tired) but doesn’t want one because NFP is surely to fail and then she will end up with 4 kids instead of 3. :ehh: But she (and all of us) have no idea what the future will bring. Whether that is infertility, or a desire for a 4th child or something else that will either encourage or discourage another child. We are just afraid that she will regret her decision to not have a third just because she is too afraid to have four.

Have courage sister in Christ. If God is calling you to have a third child then keep your mind and heart open to the gift of your third child.

 

[LaSainte]

She has said repeatedly that women who can raise a large number of kids are wonderful. But she is self-aware enough to know that she is not one of them. No where did she say that she doesn’t put her kids first, quite the opposite in fact.

And suggesting that her education is a waste and that she is obligated to do something that makes money to support kids that don’t exist yet, and kids that she doesn’t ever want to exist is crazy and offensive.

Many people feel that education is of great value, even if it doesn’t make much money. That’s a great value to have and one that she is certainly passing on to her children.

Oh my goodness, thank you for this. Really.

 

[LaSainte]

I get it. I have three and am SO ready to move on to the next phase of my life, rather than being stuck in the pregnancy/newborn/breastfeeding stage indefinitely. The thought of becoming pregnant with a fourth makes me want to cry. I wish I had easy pregnancies and easy babies and could be more okay with the sacrifice it takes to grow babies and care for small children, but I’m not. I want to go back to school and work at some point. I want to be able to go for a weekend away with my husband. I want to sleep! I want my body back. I want to run a half marathon. I want to have some money left over at the end of the month for a date with my husband or some new shoes. I struggle with this issue too - you are not alone. And you are NOT a bad mom or an inferior woman because you do not want to commit to raising kids into your late 50s!

YES. thank you. Is it so hard for people to understand that a woman might not want to worry every single month about getting pregnant into her 50s? That the idea of another 15-20 years of fertility is horrible? Why in the world would I TRY to get pregnant intentionally when I could have an accidental pregnancy or several of them at any point in the next couple of decades?

 

[Eleanor61]

She has said repeatedly that women who can raise a large number of kids are wonderful. But she is self-aware enough to know that she is not one of them. No where did she say that she doesn’t put her kids first, quite the opposite in fact.

And suggesting that her education is a waste and that she is obligated to do something that makes money to support kids that don’t exist yet, and kids that she doesn’t ever want to exist is crazy and offensive.

Many people feel that education is of great value, even if it doesn’t make much money. That’s a great value to have and one that she is certainly passing on to her children.

Yes. And the rest of us child rearing philistines do not value education? Did anyone say that? My three adult children were raised to believe they could do anything they wanted to do. So the one who had her heart set on a PhD in French enlightenment history took a master’s in education instead so she could actually get a job when she was done. Now that combined with 5 years of teaching high school english will enable her to tutor part-time in the evenings for a good rate and stay home with her baby. The gifted pianist whose degrees are in Russian Language and Literature teaches English in China, and the one who pursued his love of Milton and Shakepeare is working security. Reality doth make paupers if not cowards of us all. Education for its own sake is a lovely thought, but in reality subjects like these are hobbies, not careers, and only the wealthy and elite can indulge themselves beyond a certain point.
If I had to raise them all over again I would concentrate a lot more on science and math and less on my own strengths in the humanities, and prepare thm for the real world. Not that I loved Shakespeare less, but that I loved options more, and employability gives options.

There are actually two conversations going on here. I sympathize with La Sainte’s fear of unrestrained fertility, but I think her arguments for sterilization are weak and unconvincing and her attitude is condescending, whether intentionally or not. I am not qualified to, nor have I attempted to, offer spiritual advice, but I think her reasoning needs sharpening.

 

[LaSainte]

I’ve said this a few times now but it bears repeating.

“Openness to life” as the Church means it is not a psychological disposition. It is not a desire. It is not about you at all, really. It is a property of the sexual act itself. So by definition is it is absolutely impossible to be “open to life” in the truly meritorious sense post-tubal ligation. You keep trying to talk yourself into circles on this and there is no way to get around it. A man can’t say he’s loyal to his wife even as he carries on multiple affairs; his actions prove his words either dishonest or meaningless. And a woman cannot say she is open to life even as she sterilizes herself so as never to bear another child.

It’s not really bafflement; maybe annoyance is a better word. And it’s far from bizarre. The common theme in your posts is what it is that *you *want, *your *needs, *your *desires, etc. It betrays a stunning lack of both submission and faith – submission to the will of God and faith that He will provide you with the means to carry out His will. It’s not about you or your needs or your desires. It’s about Him. You should live that every day of your life, whatever the cost to yourself. That’s the principle we call “dying to the world.” It’s what Peter Kreeft called “dying to your desires,” and more specifically, “dying to the ‘you’ in your desires.” You don’t get to Heaven by cultivating an unhealthy attachment to the world. Mary didn’t say to Gabriel, “Errr, maybe. Get back to me next week after I get back from the women’s studies conference.” When Christ called the sons of Zebedee to ministry they didn’t say “No way, man, I’ve got a sweet fishing gig going on here and I think I’m on the verge of a big break in my acting career.” It wasn’t about Mary and it wasn’t about James and John et al. It was about God. And submission to the will of God made Mary the queen of Heaven and Earth and enabled those twelve nice Jewish boys to conquer the Roman Empire. Is it any surprise Catholics are short with you when post after post involves you trying to rationalize how best to convince yourself that non serviam is a Catholic principle? It simply cannot be done, and we’re certainly not going to tell you otherwise, no matter how many posts you start on the issue.

Well I don’t see it as not following God’s will. And I do have faith in God. But why on Earth would I think God is calling me to have more kids? You imply that God is screaming “Have more kids!”, and I’m all like “No way dude, I do what I want!” I think God is calling me to be the best wife and mother I can to the kids I have, to raise them to love Him and follow their dreams in a way that glorifies Him. I also think God wants me to be happy and doesn’t want me to have more kids than I feel comfortable with. I believe that God wants me to be happy and to teach my kids to be happy. Everybody here seems to be of the opinion that God has no respect for human individuality and that larger families are necessarily better. Pish posh.

 

[Pax2u]

Frankly, after reading this thread I am appalled at the OP’s comments. I can understand why you feel the way you do…however, that doesn’t make you “right”…and if you have decided to go against Church teaching re: sterilization what is your point in coming on a Catholic forum and arguing with everyone over why you are doing the right thing? Just because you want it doesn’t make it right.

If you are truly convinced that your plans are not sinful (in spite of obvious and clear Church teaching) you should not be giving scandal to others, but go quietly about your business if that is your choice. I will keep you in my prayers.

 

[LaSainte]

Do you attend Mass weekly? How often do you pray? Together with your husband or apart? Is there disunity in your marriage when it comes to your beliefs?

Secondly, are your periods regular? Every 28 days or so? If so, NFP will work wonders for you.

I can clearly see you have a lack of trust in God’s Mercy. God only throws at you what you can handle. Put all your stress and “misery” (as in future children) in His Holy and Righteous Hands. You are BLESSED to be able to have children. Don’t neglect that, EVER.

My wife and I, unfortunately, cannot have children. Have you thought of adoption? I’ll GLADLY take your child from you if you can’t afford it or can’t handle it. GLADLY!

If you truly are open to life, and are Catholic, to get tubes tied or get snipped is going against Catholic teaching. i.e. against God’s Holy Word. Please have a little Faith in God that He is going to take care of you and that He will NEVER put something on your plate you can’t handle. Do this, and I guarantee you will have success with how ever many children God permits you to have.

God bless! I will pray that His Holy Will be done with your family.

Thank you for the kind words. To answer your questions, I attend mass weekly, I pray sometimes every day, sometimes a few times a week-it depends. I am with my husband and we are both Catholic, although I am a bigger stickler for the rules. Neither of us believe ABC is wrong, but I will not let us take communion if we are doing something the Chirch says is a mortal sin, so we don’t use ABC to stay in communion. I’ve never actually used NFP. I have been either pregnant or nursing for the past 3.5 years. I’m going to need to start NFP very soon. I never paid attention to my periods, but I don’t think they are that regular.

I also am not really sure about the whole "God won’t go e you more than you can handle thing. I know way too many people who have committed suicide to believe that. I don’t think they were just having a bad day. God expects us to behave in an intelligent manner and to take care of ourselves, follow our instincts, make good decisions. When we don’t, our lives get messed up and our psyche is damaged, sometimes irreparably. It’s not God’s fault, it’s ours. When we use God as a crutch, bad things can happen. We need to be smart about our choices. It’s not a lack of faith, it’s taking responsibility.

 

[Rita77]

here on CAF we may not always agree but we are here to help eachother and offer support if needed. if you have questions with a method of nfp and or postpartum nfp please don’t hesitate to ask. maybe start a new thread though.

 

[Sillara]

Well I don’t see it as not following God’s will. And I do have faith in God. But why on Earth would I think God is calling me to have more kids? You imply that God is screaming “Have more kids!”, and I’m all like “No way dude, I do what I want!” I think God is calling me to be the best wife and mother I can to the kids I have, to raise them to love Him and follow their dreams in a way that glorifies Him.** I also think God wants me to be happy** and doesn’t want me to have more kids than I feel comfortable with. I believe that God wants me to be happy and to teach my kids to be happy. Everybody here seems to be of the opinion that God has no respect for human individuality and that larger families are necessarily better. Pish posh.

Bold is mine.

I do not intend to address the OP’s issue of having more children or not, but this, to me, does not appear to be correct according to Our Lord’s own words. “In this world you will have trouble.”

Yes, St. Paul talks about learning contentment in whatsoever state he finds himself, and he talks about learning to give thanks for EVERY thing, including his most difficult trials, and he talks about rejoicing. But his joy comes entirely from Christ and is independent of circumstances. Happiness … not so much. “Happiness” and “being comfortable” are pretty much just not on a Christian’s radar. Comfort and happiness come from circumstances. If you would not be, to use the OP’s example, “happy” if you had more children, then “happiness” is not what St. Paul is talking about. St. Paul writes, “To live is Christ, to die is gain.”

Death was better than his life, but he rejoiced in it.

I suppose I find it hard to reconcile a deep desire for “comfort” and “happiness” with the life of a saint-to-be. And isn’t that what we are all supposed to be?

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Wow. Threads like this make me very sad. The OP is clearly scared and distressed. I would be too. So far she has been chided for not giving up her education/passion so that she will be able to fulfill her duty to have more kids. She has been called a bad mom, accused of resenting her children, and all around treated like dirt.

I get it, and she gets it. She cannot contracept. But it does not make her a bad mom for wanting to be something more than barefoot and pregnant. She has w certain amount of time, energy, and resources that she can give. It makes her a responsible parent and a good mom to realize that it would be unfair to spread herself so thin.

I’m sorry that you’re going through all of thi, but it is admirable that you are standing by your morals even when they present difficult problems.

You sound as if you have taken a page out of LaSainte’s journal.



Please, the both of you, STOP using these insulting terms for having children!!! I am about at the end of my rope with this verbiage. “Barefoot and pregnant!” How do you dare to use that phrase when you know that Catholics are to be open to life - it has nothing to do with being “barefoot,” implying some kind of primitive, uneducated, trailer-park existence.

I am thoroughly sick of this thread and I am sorry I ever posted in it. Unsubscribing.

Before I go, does anything think that maybe the scandal of this thread has spread to other forum members? Take a look at this thread, from a member who says she doesn’t want to have children AT ALL.

What If you don’t want to have kids?

 

[ryecroft]

God did not tell us to have as many husbands as He will grant us! He did tell us to be fruitful and multiply, and I want to know where He ever rescinded that command.

“It’s not my thing.” Is that what God ever asks of us? “Sorry, God, worshiping you just isn’t my thing.” “Sorry, God, being grateful for Your blessings just isn’t my thing.” “Nope, God, taking care of the widows and orphans - not my thing.”

Actually, I view this as showing God “hey I know I can only handle and take care of this many - I’m greatful but I know I wouldn’t be honoring you by not taking good care of the rest you might send me - but I am so happy for those I have…” The OP realizes that she can handle no more than 3 - and that’s with saying she can barely handle 2 - I would rather see someone handle 2 well than 4 not so well. Just because others have had it get easier (or feel it’s become easier) with more does not mean the OP will. And it’s up to her if that’s a grave reason - that’s why the Church leaves it up to couples to discern what a great or grave reason is. Just because some may not find exhaustion and not having enough finances as a great/grave reason doesn’t mean it’s not a great/grave reason for another couple.
Yes in this world there will be trouble - but we don’t have to go looking for it - for some an extra child would be trouble (meaning the situation not the child - yes every child is a blessing )- but more children, the OP is wise enough to realize could be ‘trouble’ for her financial or emotional state and therefore family.
God Bless
Rye

 

[LaSainte]

You sound as if you have taken a page out of LaSainte’s journal.



Please, the both of you, STOP using these insulting terms for having children!!! I am about at the end of my rope with this verbiage. “Barefoot and pregnant!” How do you dare to use that phrase when you know that Catholics are to be open to life - it has nothing to do with being “barefoot,” implying some kind of primitive, uneducated, trailer-park existence.

I am thoroughly sick of this thread and I am sorry I ever posted in it. Unsubscribing.

Before I go, does anything think that maybe the scandal of this thread has spread to other forum members? Take a look at this thread, from a member who says she doesn’t want to have children AT ALL.

What If you don’t want to have kids?

Oooh, lock her up! A woman who doesn’t want to have kids! She must be a lunatic! A girl who doesn’t want kids must need therapy, as you so kindly pointed out.

Substitute kids with something, anything else and let us see how absurd this really is. A lot of girls don’t get all weak in the ovaries every time they see a baby and have zero desire to ever have one. NOTHING wrong with that. Certainly nothing to have yourself brainwashed into “wanting” kids over.

Not everybody is cut out for being a mother. It takes insane love, dedication, hard work and perseverance. Anybody who doesn’t want to do it shouldn’t be bullied into it by the likes of the members of CAF, that’s for sure. That’s like trying to convince someone to be a brain surgeon just because they were born with a brain. If they really don’t want to do it, they shouldn’t do it. But what do any of YOU care? Long after you’ve made your silly posts about just taking the leap and having the kids anyway, or going and having themselves programmed by some therapist into believing they want kids, they will be stuck with the consequences wih their decisions…no skin off your back. You just hit POST and move on. Meanwhile, there are real people reading these posts.

 

[LaSainte]

Actually, I view this as showing God “hey I know I can only handle and take care of this many - I’m greatful but I know I wouldn’t be honoring you by not taking good care of the rest you might send me - but I am so happy for those I have…” The OP realizes that she can handle no more than 3 - and that’s with saying she can barely handle 2 - I would rather see someone handle 2 well than 4 not so well. Just because others have had it get easier (or feel it’s become easier) with more does not mean the OP will. And it’s up to her if that’s a grave reason - that’s why the Church leaves it up to couples to discern what a great or grave reason is. Just because some may not find exhaustion and not having enough finances as a great/grave reason doesn’t mean it’s not a great/grave reason for another couple.
Yes in this world there will be trouble - but we don’t have to go looking for it - for some an extra child would be trouble (meaning the situation not the child - yes every child is a blessing )- but more children, the OP is wise enough to realize could be ‘trouble’ for her financial or emotional state and therefore family.
God Bless
Rye

Yes. Thank you for understanding

 

[LaSainte]

Bold is mine.

I do not intend to address the OP’s issue of having more children or not, but this, to me, does not appear to be correct according to Our Lord’s own words. “In this world you will have trouble.”

Yes, St. Paul talks about learning contentment in whatsoever state he finds himself, and he talks about learning to give thanks for EVERY thing, including his most difficult trials, and he talks about rejoicing. But his joy comes entirely from Christ and is independent of circumstances. Happiness … not so much. “Happiness” and “being comfortable” are pretty much just not on a Christian’s radar. Comfort and happiness come from circumstances. If you would not be, to use the OP’s example, “happy” if you had more children, then “happiness” is not what St. Paul is talking about. St. Paul writes, “To live is Christ, to die is gain.”

Death was better than his life, but he rejoiced in it.

I suppose I find it hard to reconcile a deep desire for “comfort” and “happiness” with the life of a saint-to-be. And isn’t that what we are all supposed to be?

Oh I’m sorry. Did you sell all of your belongings and give the money to the poor? I’m sure you did. All but your computer I see. And I’m sure you go around in sackcloth and ashes as well.