ICE arrests nearly 450 illegal immigrants in sanctuary city raids

[pnewton]

How about you, and what point were you trying to make with this line of questioning?

Simply this. If local police say that acting as agents of immigration hampers their efforts for enforcement of state and local laws within a community, then questioning that premise should not be done out of ignorance. Surely no one will deny that even the undocumented immigrants should be denied basic legal protection from crimes of violence. Remember that most police are paid to enforce criminal law, not civil. Call one sometime when someone won’t repay a loan and see how far you get.

Oh, and thirty years.

 

[pnewton]

Fair enough. I will switch over to “undocumented” and “improper entry”. Overstaying a visa is a civil matter, not criminal. This is why immigration hearings are not treated as crimes and why the term “illegal” does not apply to all, at least more than they can apply to pretty much everyone else who is subject to civil litigation.

So, what crime are those children who were brought here illegally and now facing deportation currently committing? What law are they violating? With the internet, I am sure someone can search and find it. It is actually kind of chilling if you ask me. It makes me grateful enough to God for my accident of being born a citizen that I rather think, "There but by the grace of God go I.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

pnewton:

No, they lose trust with all of them. I will remind you that ICE deports all illegal immigrants.

IMHO the police should focus on building trust with their legal citizens, as their priority.

Because many of the legal citizens have a bond with those of the same ethnicity who are here illegally, there is no way to build trust with one group by eroding trust with the other.

 

[De_Maria]

Fair enough. I will switch over to “undocumented” and “improper entry”. Overstaying a visa is a civil matter, not criminal.

You mean a civil violation? Right?

What is the penalty for this particular civil violation.

And should civil violations be punished? Yes or no.

 

[Theo520]

Because many of the legal citizens have a bond with those of the same ethnicity who are here illegally, there is no way to build trust with one group by eroding trust with the other.

So the root of the problem is the sheer number of non legal citizens.

That is the problem we need to address, even if there is some discomfort.

 

[pnewton]

You mean a civil violation? Right?

No. That is not what I said, and “punished” is not a word I would ever use, any more that a person whose spouse is divorcing them would be considered the action legal punishment. I only use that word for criminals.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

Because many of the legal citizens have a bond with those of the same ethnicity who are here illegally, there is no way to build trust with one group by eroding trust with the other.

So the root of the problem is the sheer number of non legal citizens.

That is the problem we need to address, even if there is some discomfort.

And so you concede that doing so in the manner proposed sacrifices trust of the people that the police are supposed to protect. Some police chiefs think that trust is more important to their overall mission than deporting aliens.

 

[De_Maria]

You mean a civil violation? Right?

No. That is not what I said,

Then you don’t understand what you said. Because you claimed that you wouldn’t use the word “illegal” because it was a civil matter.

But the fact remains, that a civil matter concerns the body of civil law. And being in this country unlawfully violates civil law. Therefore, the description of being an “illegal” immigrant remains correct.

and “punished” is not a word I would ever use,

Whether you use it or not is irrelevant. The fact remains that the punishment for unlawful presence in this country is “deportation”.

any more that a person whose spouse is divorcing them would be considered the action legal punishment. I only use that word for criminals.

Civil law permits divorce. In this country, its not illegal to divorce somebody. So the comparison is without merit.

 

[exnihilo]

Not so, actually. The difference between someone who’s overstaying an H1B visa (or any other visa attached to a job) is that ICE knows where to find that person when the job engagement is over. And they will be found. They’re not working under the table, they’re not getting paid in cash, and they’re not using faked or stolen IDs.

Believe me, I know. I’ve been through this on a personal level.

I personally worked with a Chinese man who had a fake identity and, consequently, fake visa because his previous visa had expired.

 

[pnewton]

Then you don’t understand what you said.

Now that was good for a laugh today. I have thought that of others, but never said it. But like I said, you have convinced me to never use the word “illegal” again. I will stick with the more specific “undocumented” immigrant.

But all this is irrelevant. It is still not the job of local police to enforce immigration statutes, or any civil statutes, except in rare occasions.

 

[Theo520]

And so you concede that doing so in the manner proposed sacrifices trust of the people that the police are supposed to protect. Some police chiefs think that trust is more important to their overall mission than deporting aliens.

Heck no, nobody is asking the police to break trust. They are only being asked to hold people already in custody for ICE questioning.

For the most part, people don’t end up in custody unless they are breaking laws.

 

[anon82300119]

Approve. Get 'em out. Sanctuary cities need to learn that they live in a democracy, and not island kingdoms of their own rule.

No, actually they don’t. We are a Republic. Democracies are one of the most vile forms of government.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

And so you concede that doing so in the manner proposed sacrifices trust of the people that the police are supposed to protect. Some police chiefs think that trust is more important to their overall mission than deporting aliens.

Heck no, nobody is asking the police to break trust. They are only being asked to hold people already in custody for ICE questioning.

For the most part, people don’t end up in custody unless they are breaking laws.

People end up in “custody” for a wide range or reasons - some of them more serious, some of them less so. If someone is in custody for being drunk and disorderly (think Otis on the Andy Griffith show) Otis’s family does not expect he might be sent out of the country forever. If a group of a certain ethnicity is worried their family or friend are just one arrest away from deportation, and that the police are working on behalf of ICE in this effort, they will have reason not to trust the police.

Those in favor of deportation like to think of the deported as isolated criminals with no ties to the community. Many communities with strong ties to immigrants know better. So yes, it does break trust when local police do the job of ICE.

 

[starshiptrooper]

I have a hard time trusting my fellow citizens when they condone lawbreaking

 

[LeafByNiggle]

I have a hard time trusting my fellow citizens when they condone lawbreaking

It is about who you feel you can trust. As for “condoning lawbreaking”, suppose you are a kid whose father is here illegally. What sort of kid would want to see his father deported, even if he knew that being here was illegal? A kid who wants to see his father deported is a kid I would have a hard time trusting. But it is not about who I trust either.

 

[De_Maria]

Now that was good for a laugh today. I have thought that of others, but never said it. But like I said, you have convinced me to never use the word “illegal” again. I will stick with the more specific “undocumented” immigrant.

You can laugh all you want, but whether they are illegal or undocumented, the punishment for that unlawful status, is to deport them.

But all this is irrelevant. It is still not the job of local police to enforce immigration statutes, or any civil statutes, except in rare occasions.

But it is their job to punish criminals. So, it is their job to find and prosecute anyone, including illegal aliens who have committed other crimes in addition to being unlawfully present in this country.

 

[Theo520]

It is about who you feel you can trust. As for “condoning lawbreaking”, suppose you are a kid whose father is here illegally. What sort of kid would want to see his father deported, even if he knew that being here was illegal? A kid who wants to see his father deported is a kid I would have a hard time trusting. But it is not about who I trust either.

Your scenario doesn’t compute.

The kid who’s dad committed robbery also doesn’t want to see his father locked up in jail for many years. He probably doesn’t trust the police either.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

It is about who you feel you can trust. As for “condoning lawbreaking”, suppose you are a kid whose father is here illegally. What sort of kid would want to see his father deported, even if he knew that being here was illegal? A kid who wants to see his father deported is a kid I would have a hard time trusting. But it is not about who I trust either.

Your scenario doesn’t compute.

The kid who’s dad committed robbery also doesn’t want to see his father locked up in jail for many years. He probably doesn’t trust the police either.

The police do not want to “write off” anyone as impossible to establish trust with.

 

[Theo520]

The police do not want to “write off” anyone as impossible to establish trust with.

You still aren’t making sense.

I showed how your logic applied equally to the family of any law breaker. Why should the police not care about feelings with 99% of the legal code, but be so concerned about the family feelings about illegal immigrants?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

LeafByNiggle:

The police do not want to “write off” anyone as impossible to establish trust with.

You still aren’t making sense.

I showed how your logic applied equally to the family of any law breaker. Why should the police not care about feelings with 99% of the legal code, but be so concerned about the family feelings about illegal immigrants?

You are assuming that 99% of the people in that city are clamoring for the deportation of aliens, and that not doing so would be breaking trust with them. The fact is, in those cities, most of the people are either apathetic about the need for that action, or are actively on the side of those whose are undocumented among them. So the police lose more community good will by acting as a tool of ICE than if they don’t. The police see that good will as an essential asset to doing their job within the community. And that is why sanctuary cities exist.