Identifying and Responding to Imposter Catholics

[fide]

Those of us who need to maintain a feeling of moral superiority?

How about ‘Those of us who love the Church, and want to see her honored with the obedience of faith, and the care due to her Name. Those who loudly profess the Name but dishonor it by habitual contradiction in their lives, and by their public hypocrisies and scandals, dishonor her Founder Jesus Christ and the One who sent Him, as well.’

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Why are we talking about Biden when we’re talking about lapsed Catholics?? Do we really need another thread about Biden??

No, but assuming he is inaugurated, prepare yourself for 4 to 8 years of the same discussion on endless repeat…

 

[pulchraesamicamea]

Oh dear. I just wish we didn’t talk about politics in a Catholic forum.

 

[humilityseeker]

Those who label fellow Catholics as 'imposter catholics ’ might be in dire need of a refresher course on the Creed they recite each Sunday, the Creed that is core to our Catholic being, specifically

the Communion of Saints and what this means. As baptised Catholics we all form the Communion of Saints.
I especially would draw attention to
953 "Communion in charity . In the sanctorum communio, "None of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself."489 "If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together. Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it."490 "Charity does not insist on its own way.“491 In this solidarity with all men, living or dead, which is founded on the communion of saints, the least of our acts done in charity redounds to the profit of all. Every sin harms this communion”

As a member of the Communion of saints, in all charity, it is time to pray for our brothers and sisters who have not fully embraced all teachings and for those who regard their fellow members as 'imposter catholics '.
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p5.htm

 

[o_mlly]

Because an imposter is one who deceives, we cannot know if the one who is in error is an imposter or simply ignorant. Avoiding rash judgment, we ought to presume ignorance. We cannot tolerate the error; we must tolerate the one who is in error.

However, the one who is obstinately in error, whether imposter or invincibly ignorant, must be separated from the flock less the flock be scandalized by our inaction. Formally, excommunication is the mode and medicinal method to separate the obstinate ones. Fraternal correction works to the same end. If the private admonitions are unsuccessful and the errors remains private errors, we “shake the dust from our sandals” and leave the person. However, if the one in error is public in his error then the admonition must also become public and the ignorant one exposed and excommunicated. The duty of fraternal correction is a serious obligation of the faithful. Even if the one in error is our superior.

However, note that when a danger to the Faith is threatening, then prelates should be accused by
their subjects even in public. Hence, Paul, who was subject to Peter, publicly rebuked Peter because of an imminent danger of scandal with respect to the Faith (ST II-II, q. 33, a. 4, ad 2).

 

[Billy_Buescher]

A Tree and Its Fruit
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

[BT3241]

I don’t know it seems to say if i question anything I am an imposter I must agree with everything I guess I am an imposter I can’t blindly believe.

My problem with my faith is the accuracy of Genesis I refuse to believe the fundamentalist view so that makes me a imposter and a heretic

 

[christofirst]

When it comes to judging my fellow Catholics, that big old plank in my own eye keeps me from seeing the speck in theirs. I cannot read what’s in their hearts, nor whatever might be motivating them. I give them the benefit of the doubt, including the president-elect.

Tis_Bearself mentioned a priest who argued a way for Catholic politicians to support prochoice laws, and I immediately thought of the late Jesuit theologian Fr. John Courtney Murray. Specifically regarding politics, his argument was based on pluralism and public consensus. We can disagree with Fr. Murray’s ideas, but I would never call him an “imposter Catholic.” He came at the problem of a Catholic politician faced with laws in a secular society that go against Church teaching, specifically a law concerning contraception, and he came up with a workable solution, based on civil law and Church teaching. That solution might be controversial, but to my knowledge it has not been officially condemned by the Church, and it is in part the reason why documents like “Faithful Citizenship” are nuanced, despite the fact that some of us would prefer unequivocal, nonnegotiable teaching. Fr. Murray remained a faithful priest and son of the Church until his untimely death.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

My problem with my faith is the accuracy of Genesis I refuse to believe the fundamentalist view so that makes me a imposter and a heretic

You’re not required to believe the “fundamentalist” view of Genesis to be in accord with the teachings of the Church.

If you have specific Genesis questions then you should ask in the Sacred Scripture subforum and I’m sure they can be straightened out.

 

[Vico]

Please define “imposter Catholics”.

I would say that is covered in the Catechism, since the mark or sign of faith may be lost yet one could lie about it.

1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord (“Dominicus character”) "for the day of redemption."86 "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life."87 The faithful Christian who has “kept the seal” until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith,"88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

86 St. Augustine, Ep. 98,5L 33,362; Eph 4:30; cf. 1:13-14; 2 Cor 1:21-22.
87 St. Irenaeus, Dem ap. 3:SCh 62,32.
88 Roman Missal , EP I (Roman Canon) 97.

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom …

1468 “The whole power of the sacrament of Penance consists in restoring us to God’s grace and joining us with him in an intimate friendship.” …

2482 “A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving.” …

 

[fide]

When it comes to judging my fellow Catholics, that big old plank in my own eye keeps me from seeing the speck in theirs.

The teaching of the Lord does not allow us to be content with that condition in ourselves. He says,

Mt 7:3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Mt 7:4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye?
Mt 7:5 You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

We ARE to love our brothers enough to be able to help them seek and achieve holiness. The faults we see in our brothers (not in “judgment” but in righteous discernment) ought to help us focus on our on faults, yes, of course, and pursue God’s grace of holiness, fervently! We must never be content with mediocrity, not in ourselves nor in the lives of others in the Church especially.

A priest who gives Catholic politicians a path to “justify” their active support for legalized sins, is doing them NO favor.

 

[Jen95]

The term “imposter Catholic” is covered in the original linked article. Did anyone bother to read it?

Isn’t the Body of Christ harmed when any of us sin? I certainly acknowledge that I am a sinner, and I guess almost all of us are, but people who call themselves Catholic and openly undermine the true teaching of the Church harm the Church (the Body of Christ, right?) very much.

For instance, people who everyone knows is Catholic, but perform a same-sex marriage. What might Jesus be thinking when He sees that? What are we supposed to think?
Such a person makes himself look like a hypocrite to publicly go against the teachings of his Church, and perhaps makes all Catholics look foolish and hypocritical. We need to call out people who are openly and publicly calling out church teaching.
That was the good of excommunication, people would know that someone was not in good standing with the Church. It’s hard for us individuals to do and should come from the hierarchy, such as the bishop who said a certain putative election winner is not welcome to Communion in his diocese.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Not an “imposter Catholic”, not a “fake Catholic”, not even a CINO or “cultural Catholic” because he actually practices.

At some point we have to take actions into account. I acknowledged that the indelible mark of baptism will always be with him, and that he will always be Catholic; but eventually, when everything you do in your life seems to work against your professed religion, you lose the right to continue calling yourself by that moniker.

Christ clearly taught this.

Matthew 18:17

If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

Gentiles and tax collectors were excluded from temple life. This would seem to indicate that at some point a person loses their right to be considered a part of the body of the Church.

We are definitely a hospital for sinners, and I would never call to exclude anyone who is trying to live a good life but failing. The problem is that, from everything we see in his public life, Biden and his ilk aren’t trying to live holy lives. They are using all the power they have amassed to attack the Church and her teachings.

At some point, when a person has dedicated so much of their life to undermining the teachings of the Church, we have to call them out on it. Joe Biden should have been excommunicated years ago, but that’s up to the bishops. The goal of this isn’t to actually exclude them, I don’t want Biden to be separated from the Church, I want him to repent, I want him to publicly denounce the evils he’s supported. That’s the entire point of excommunication. But instead, we’ve adopted this non-biblical position that no matter what anyone does we shouldn’t cast them out, and so that wake up call, that true cutting off from worldly access to the sacraments, never happens. And so they keep on the trajectory they’re on, thinking their “disagreements” aren’t a big deal, and within the realm of prudential judgment.

Tis, I know we’ve had this conversation a few times before, and I don’t think we’ll ever agree. I appreciate your desire to include everyone and reach out to them that way, but there’s abundant evidence that that approach simply isn’t going to work with some people. Excommunication exists for a reason, and it’s a tool our bishops should apply more frequently in regards to public figures; especially ones who have dedicated much of their professional lives to supporting things in direct contradiction to Church teaching.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

people who call themselves Catholic and openly undermine the true teaching of the Church harm the Church (the Body of Christ, right?) very much.

They do. But many of us have done the same by our sinful actions over many years. I’m not in a position to cast stones, myself. I just give thanks I repented and cleaned up my act because it’s a better state to be in. I pray for others to do the same, rather than saying, “we need to get rid of that sinful person making our church look bad and doing it harm.”

And before I got around to repenting, I went to church sometimes, I received some unworthy communions, I prayed (sometimes for things that in hindsight were morally wrong). I was confused to say the least. I didn’t go to church thinking, “ I’m an imposter Catholic and I’m here to hurt Jesus and the Church and put one over on the good Catholics.” I went thinking, “Jesus, I do love you and I wish I were better at this Catholic stuff but it’s just so hard.” I was just trying to do the best I could, every day. Most people are. I don’t see how it helps for us to push them down the hill they’re trying to climb up.

 

[Jen95]

Jen95:

people who call themselves Catholic and openly undermine the true teaching of the Church harm the Church (the Body of Christ, right?) very much.

They do. But many of us have done the same by our sinful actions over many years. I’m not in a position to cast stones, myself. I just give thanks I repented and cleaned up my act because it’s a better state to be in. I pray for others to do the same, rather than saying, “we need to get rid of that sinful person making our church look bad and doing it harm.”

Are you a public figure who makes laws and the press covers pretty much everything you do? And then you go and do things that make Catholics look like hypocrites? I am not a public figure, and if I were, I would try very hard not to undermine my own Church’s teaching. I know I would still be a sinner, and would try to be humble, but I hope I wouldn’t perform a same-sex marriage, or push laws that advance things that go against obvious Church teaching (such as that abortion is murder).

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I worked in Washington and I could have pursued a career as a public figure, or an assistant to a public figure. There are reasons I didn’t. One is that I could see it might lead to moral compromises. Another is that I was afraid of harm to my family, either physical harm, or emotional harm if some of the stuff I did came out publicly, or even privately to my mom and in-laws. (Husband knew everything in real time because I did not keep secrets from my husband, partly so he would never be in a position of hearing about it from someone else with an agenda.) I decided it was better to go do apolitical stuff.

When you have a person who has made their whole career in politics, it’s a slippery slope because they lose not only their job, the perks, their whole career and life that they are used to, but also they lose the ability to do whatever good things they thought they would be able to accomplish. We should pray a lot for these people because most of them are not strong enough to stand up and tell the rest of the political world where to go. Truman was because he was used to being an unpopular failure and he was very strong internally and had come to politics sort of late. Trump was, to some extent, because he wasn’t a politician and has little to lose by saying things that no one else would dare. It’s different when a person’s lifelong job is politics. They dont really know how to do anything else. They find compromises they can live with.

 

[Jen95]

I can see what you are saying. I acknowledge that there are a lot of sacrifices with public life, as well as the perks.

Your comment doesn’t explain to me why Biden thinks it was a good idea to officiate at a same-sex marriage though, or why Nancy Pelosi thinks late-term abortion rights are “sacred ground”. I just don’t know how anyone can explain those away.
Do you think that things like that make Catholics look like hypocrites, Tis?

Do you think it should trouble Catholics what Nancy Pelosi says about abortion rights?

Your comments lead me to believe that you think term limits are a good idea, otherwise politicians can’t help but become corrupt.

Abortion: Nancy Pelosi's "Sacred Ground"

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I can’t speak for Nancy because I have no idea if she practices her Catholicism these days. I do pray for her. I have more personal knowledge of Biden from several different sources, so I know he does practice.

And yes, I would rather that other Catholics don’t act in public in ways I find personally difficult and embarrassing, but my wishing that is not going to stop it. If I were the personal friend or family member of such a person I might have a word with them. Aside from that, all I can do is pray for them.

My understanding how they get in such messes doesn’t mean I approve of it, any more than my understanding how a person becomes an addict or a prostitute means I think that’s okay. It just means I can see how it could happen.

 

[christofirst]

A label like “imposter Catholic” implies that one is either ignorant, too lazy to learn what the Church teaches, or deliberately evil, actively seeking to subvert Church teaching. In the case of politics, it dismisses the possibility that a Catholic could seriously attempt to reconcile with Church teaching a decision regarding a civil law which the Church considers to be illicit, especially when considered alongside all of the other laws and policies that are, for better or worse, included in a particular candidate’s or political party’s agenda. It denies the possibility that another Catholic could attempt to form their conscience in accord with the teachings of the Church and reach a conclusion other than our own.

 

[godisgood77]

Joe Biden is a good example given the current US situation.

I may be able to agree with this…

However, I would say that those Catholics who voraciously supported Trump have a dilemma too. Trump sternly supported some abortions, he aggressively supported the death penalty and imposed brutal policies on the immigrant. If we are consistent in our logic, we would have imposter Catholics in this group, too.