If God is not The Trinity, when what did He mean...

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FaithofAbraham said:
If man is created good and evil then who created evil? God did, but God allowed Satan to create it in us.
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God did not create evil. God gave us the gift of free will. Now what we do with that is a entirely different matter. When Satan was created he was just a normal angel. His pride caused him to sin against God. Then he caused Adam and Eve to sin. God did not create sin nor could he because that would contradict Himself, as we know God to be good. The fall of the angels created sin.

“The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing” (CCC 391)
 
FaithofAbraham said:
I guess take that up with Isaiah, he says God creates evil.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
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My translation says:

“I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster” (Isaiah 45:7)

From this, yes we know that God makes bad things happen, because some good will eventually happen out of this bad. My point was that God did not create evil because He couldn’t He is only good. Yes he makes bad or evil things happen, but you are taking this out of context. By evil I meant sin, God did not create sin.
 
holdencaulfield said:
My translation says:

“I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster” (Isaiah 45:7)

From this, yes we know that God makes bad things happen, because some good will eventually happen out of this bad. My point was that God did not create evil because He couldn’t He is only good. Yes he makes bad or evil things happen, but you are taking this out of context. By evil I meant sin, God did not create sin.
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I don’t really think sin took the all-knowing God by surprise, it was probably all part of His plan.
 
holdencaulfield said:
My translation says:

“I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster” (Isaiah 45:7)

From this, yes we know that God makes bad things happen, because some good will eventually happen out of this bad. My point was that God did not create evil because He couldn’t He is only good. Yes he makes bad or evil things happen, but you are taking this out of context. By evil I meant sin, God did not create sin.
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Dear FoA, which translation of bible are you using? I hope it is not from the JW.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
I don’t really think sin took the all-knowing God by surprise, it was probably all part of His plan.
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Dear FoA,

If God created evil and sins, and God knows that human can fall into sin, and you believe that God will send a Messiah to save human, why God has to create human at the first place?

God created human in purpose, God created evil/satan in purpose, God then subjected human to test of sin, God also created hell for human who fail to the test. Wow, if you believe that, then you also believe that God is some sort of a scientist experimenting in a lab.
 
2ndGen said:
I believe Adam and Eve were created in God’s image.

We weren’t created, we were pro-created “of” Adam and Eve.
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That’s a unsustainable Dodge, unless you are going to say that God is not involved in the procreation of humans. If so, then what is sacred about life?
 
FaithofAbraham said:
If God wanted to make the angels God too, sure He could do it. But He told us to worship none but Him.

your argument is called argument from silence. I can say God was talking to aliens on a different planet, and you couldn’t prove me wrong, because i base my answer on something not found in scriptures, then i’ll have to add things and excuses to the text : yet God is the creator, He just gives them the power to do so…yet God can make then God if He wants to and ask us to worship only Him…as you can see, you are adding not only angels as creators alongside God, but you are adding interpretations based on something not found in the first place. If you can show me one example of an angel creating a human being because God asked Him so, i’ll agree that your interpretation holds water.

If you think am arguing to “prove” the Trinity, you are totally wrong. There are a thousand passage about Trinity…i’d say this one is not that conclusive.

Yet my argument is not based on silence like yours. If i want to understand what God meant, i’ll refer to the passages talking about the creation of man. When i do, i\ll realize angels are not mentioned, not once, yet the Word and Spirit are mentioned abundantly.

If you and i present our case to a judge, the judge will dismiss yours since there is no evidence…arguments from silence are the weakest…yet he will not dismiss mine because i present proof.
It doesn’t contradict if you can see that the human flesh/spirit/nature God took on with Jesus was…a human named Jesus.
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swariffin said:
Dear FoA,

If God created evil and sins, and God knows that human can fall into sin, and you believe that God will send a Messiah to save human, why God has to create human at the first place?

God created human in purpose, God created evil/satan in purpose, God then subjected human to test of sin, God also created hell for human who fail to the test. Wow, if you believe that, then you also believe that God is some sort of a scientist experimenting in a lab.
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I believe kind of like Jews, that Satan is here to reveal sins and temptations that might not be readily apparent so we may fight against them and improve ourselves with God’s help, maybe so we can also play a part in the creative process of perfecting ourselves.

I don’t see God as some kind of cold scientist testing us, but like a loving parent who lets His children fall a few times as they learn how to ride a bike by themselves.

I believe in Purgatory too, and hope most people can go there then on to Heaven. I think if it is like a purifying fire burning off the bad things, you have to be totally evil to have it all burned away and thus not exist anymore, to not have any goodness left to go on to Heaven. Maybe people like Hitler would fall into that category, I don’t know.
 
inJESUS said:
By telling a creature to create as He does is giving the same power to a creature, which makes the creature equal to God.
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No it isn’t, God can give His power to anyone He wants.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
No it isn’t, God can give His power to anyone He wants.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
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what does striving to be morally perfect has to do with a creature having the same power of creating as God? is Matthew telling us create humans like God does?

do you read in the passage God saying I give you the power to create so let us create? no. You will have to add both angels and your interpretation in order not to be blaspheming. Yet the passage mentions none. If you go to other passages, you will find who the US is, and not surprisingly, angels are nowhere mentioned on the creation of man.

If the Word and Spirit are not mentioned, your argument might hold water. But since God explicitely revealed who created man (His Word and Spirit), then your argument is a mere attempt at dismissing explicit teachings to suit your own ideology.
 
inJESUS said:
what does striving to be morally perfect has to do with a creature having the same power of creating as God? is Matthew telling us create humans like God does?
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You are just telling God He can’t give His power of creation or judgment or anything else to whoever He chooses. I don’t do that.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
 
FaithofAbraham said:
You are just telling God He can’t give His power of creation or judgment or anything else to whoever He chooses. I don’t do that.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
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i don’t say God can’t. I say you are adding what is not in the text and dismissing what is written. Your argument being from silence begs the question…it holds no water.

You gave me an example of God saying His Word judges. No surprise.

Show me God saying He gave an angel the power to create man.

God giving humans some powers does not allow you to add any criteria you like to suit your belief when this criteria is not not only found, but counterparted with explicit criteria that denies yours.
 
inJESUS said:
i don’t say God can’t. I say you are adding what is not in the text and dismissing what is written. Your argument being from silence begs the question…it holds no water.
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Sure it does, if God is there saying let’s create man in our likeness, and angels were there as He created the earth as it says in Job, and some angels have the face of a man, then that all says to me that God is saying to angels, “let’s create man with a face like yours, along with some other things.”

Angels could either be there participating only as the models for what man looks like and maybe how he acts as God’s servant, or they could have actually helped God form Adam from dirt under His direction.

While your belief is that God’s Word is like a little God, and God was talking to it as another person in a polytheistic relationship.

Instead of God’s Word just being what God says and commands.

So I stick with my belief as it is just more sensible, monotheistic, and scripturally supported. I can’t really say more than that about this except to keep repeating what I already say.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
Sure it does, if God is there saying let’s create man in our likeness, and angels were there as He created the earth as it says in Job,

can you prove, at the moment of His utterance, there were angels present? if not, it is still an argument from silence. Just because angels exist, it does not mean He was adressing them.
While your belief is that God’s Word is like a little God, and God was talking to it as another person in a polytheistic relationship.
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inJESUS said:
can you prove, at the moment of His utterance, there were angels present? if not, it is still an argument from silence. Just because angels exist, it does not mean He was adressing them.
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My belief is supported with the scripture as I said.

But as for actual proof, no, no more than you can prove that God was speaking His own Word, to His own Word, in the form of a lesser God named Jesus.

Rather than that Jesus was just a prophet God dwelled in, who spoke God’s Word and sayings and commands to the people, thus becoming God’s Word to the people.

This whole Trinity thing is just a misunderstanding that God’s Word is like another deity, instead of just what God says. And confusing that with the real idea that Jesus is God’s Word to the people. None of that means Jesus is the actual sayings and commands that have always come from God. It just means, that’s the role he plays now, a human prophet, king, priest, etc. speaking words that come from God.

Like if I was press secretary for President Bush, one might say I’m the Word of Bush. But it doesn’t mean I am literally the words that come out of his mouth, or that his words are a little man that exists as another person besides him.

So the Christians have taken a simple poetic metaphor and figure of speech and built a whole theology around it as another god next to God.
 
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