If I am saved by faith alone, why do I need to read the Bible?

[Kristin234]

Yes I agree with you there Salvation must be maintained. Word out your salvation, I agree. But you said its our FATH that saves us, remember we are saved by Faith, not grace and you never mentioned our work. You have me confused here, Now are we saved by faith as you stated, or are you beginning to COME AROUND on the teachings of the Church that it is by Grace that we are saved and by the Grace of GOd given faith to do Gods work here on earth, we are working out our Salvation like ST Paul in fear and trembleing?

:yup:
It by grace that we have been saved. The Bible clearly tells us that.
“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God.”

So God’s grace saves us because we has faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[rinnie]

Originally Posted by 1voice
When a person sins … they break fellowship with God… God has given a way of escape from broken fellowship. That way is through the faith to know that God always honors true repentance… and we are guaranteed complete restoration the instant we repent. … 70 X 7

If a person forgives an apologetic co-worker for a direct/ cutting insult … and there is true remorse and true forgiveness … is the sin retained … unless a Priest gets involved?

Here is what I heard her Say PM, that if we are in mortal sin, break fellowship with God our faith is what saves us:shrug:

SHe says its our faith that we know that God honors true repentance. See I always thought it was through the Grace of God that true Repentance was even Possible.

THen the other part that I do not agree with is she says that when we are in mortal sin, again its our faith, not by the Grace of God that he gave to the Apostles to forgive sin in his name or retain it. SHe says its all about our faith.

So again its not the Grace of God that saves us, we do it all by ourself with our faith We did it on our own.

 

[AlwaysCurious]

Is this how your church does it? Your congregants must confess their sins to another, and then to the elders, and then to the entire church?

You actually have someone stand in front of the entire congregation to confess his unrepentance?

Really?

In the evangelical church I attended before becoming Catholic, I can actually remember this happening a handful of times over my 26 years there. When I say handful, I mean literally I could count them on one hand. One woman confessed an abortion, a few others confessed adultery/divorces/remarriage.

I think part of their rationale was to put a stop to gossip. But I still wondered, at the time, why they would bare their souls in such a manner, especially when it put their whole reputation on the line (the trend I noticed is that these confessions immediately preceded their permanent departure from our church).

It became clearer after I joined the Catholic Church. Even Christians who hate the idea of Catholic confession still recognize that asking God directly for forgiveness does not always cut it. It certainly isn’t the norm (not where I’m from, anyway), but it happens every once in a while and undermines the idea that I can confess all my sins privately to God in my bedroom and that’s the end of it.

Just my :twocents:.

 

[1voice]

Originally Posted by 1voice
He didnt tell them to retain everybody’s sins.

This is true, but a non-sequitur. No one here has posited that they “retain everybody’s sins”.

The default position of a Priest is not to retain all sin that is not forgiven by him?

 

[1voice]

rinnie, I think 1voice’s point is that he didn’t tell the Apostles to retain everyone’s sins.

This is a strawman, as no one has ever posited that priests must retain everyone’s sins.

Exactly … but the CC assumes the opposite. Sin Is retained by default.

It is my impression that (what you call mortal) sin, according to Catholic thinking, is automatically retained unless a Priest forgives it.

If sin isnt retained by default … why involve a Priest in the process?

If a woman cheats on her husband and then has a change of heart and stops doing it and receives forgiveness from her husband …the sin still remains unless a Priest is involved?

 

[rinnie]

Exactly … but the CC assumes the opposite. Sin Is retained by default.

It is my impression that (what you call mortal) sin, according to Catholic thinking, is automatically retained unless a Priest forgives it.

If sin isnt retained by default … why involve a Priest in the process?

If a woman cheats on her husband and then has a change of heart and stops doing it and receives forgiveness from her husband …the sin still remains unless a Priest is involved?

Yes that is exactly true. Where does the bible say that the Wife has the power of the Holy SPirit to forgive or retain that sin?

Please show me where it states in the bible a wife can give a husband absolution for his sins?

 

[1voice]

Yes I agree with you there Salvation must be maintained. Word out your salvation, I agree. But you said its our FATH that saves us, remember we are saved by Faith, not grace and you never mentioned our work. You have me confused here, Now are we saved by faith as you stated, or are you beginning to COME AROUND on the teachings of the Church that it is by Grace that we are saved and by the Grace of GOd given faith to do Gods work here on earth, we are working out our Salvation like ST Paul in fear and trembleing?

I am in no way in a tug of war with you on this

God said:
“In the last days I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh.”

He also said:
“Faith comes by hearing the word of God.”

… Without the grace of God neither of these things happen.

Grace, to me, means … unmerited love. “When we were yet sinners … Jesus died for us”

Grace is Gods default position of whole hearted commitment toward humanity as demonstrated by his sacrifice of his own Son.

All of the other spiritual strength in our lives is rooted and grounded in that grace-ious love.

Therefore … love/grace is Gods default position toward us.

Faith is a tool that is exercised within that atmosphere of grace/love.

It is Gods chosen method of providing a way to accomplish what God wants.
“Without faith… it is impossible to please God”

God’s in his grace/love provides the faith to be saved. Within that same foundation/ atmosphere of grace/love … more, new in-fillings of faith and love are given in order to stand against the onslaught of the enemy that we all face …
‘The testing of our faith produces endurance.’

Faith Hope and Love are all active in the process of obtaining and maintaining salvation … Paul said … the greatest of these is love … which is unmerited favor … which is grace.
So yes, grace is very important …Faith that pleases God cant operate without it… it is a firm foundation and the mortar that continually builds and strengthens faith.

… Thats my take.

 

[1voice]

Hold on here I am lost, you said he didn’t tell them to retain anyones sins?

John 20:23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven and whose sins you retain are retained.

Now you are saying we don’t need a Priest to forgive our sin. Thats what YOU say, But John 20:23 thats what Jesus says.

What is your take on that scripture?

Well … you misquoted me … and then challenged me to explain the misquote.

I said: ‘He didnt tell them to retain everybody’s sins.’

You said " ’ Hold on here I am lost, you said he didn’t tell them to retain anyones sins’?"

replacing my word with yours … I understand how it would create confusion.

 

[rinnie]

Well … you misquoted me … and then challenged me to explain the misquote.

I said: ‘He didnt tell them to retain everybody’s sins.’

You said " ’ Hold on here I am lost, you said he didn’t tell them to retain anyones sins’?"

replacing my word with yours … I understand how it would create confusion.

Oh Ok then explain this to me.

Jesus came and stood in their midst (the Apostles is who we are talking about here) read it in John 20:19-23

Then he said Whose sins YOU forgive are forgiven, who sins YOU retain are retained.

Now you asked me why do I have to have a Priest to retain or forgive sins. I told you because Jesus commanded it.

Now did Jesus tell the Apostles to forgive EVERYBODY? NO Did Jesus tell then to NOT forgive EVERYBODY? No.

He said who’s sins YOU forgive are forgiven and who’s sins YOU retain are retained.

Now where did he say you can only forgive the sins of people that have sinned against you? Where did he say if they are forgiven from the person who they hurt YOU HAVE to forgive then?

 

[rinnie]

I am in no way in a tug of war with you on this

God said:
“In the last days I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh.”

He also said:
“Faith comes by hearing the word of God.”

… Without the grace of God neither of these things happen.

Grace, to me, means … unmerited love. “When we were yet sinners … Jesus died for us”

Grace is Gods default position of whole hearted commitment toward humanity as demonstrated by his sacrifice of his own Son.

All of the other spiritual strength in our lives is rooted and grounded in that grace-ious love.

Therefore … love/grace is Gods default position toward us.

Faith is a tool that is exercised within that atmosphere of grace/love.

It is Gods chosen method of providing a way to accomplish what God wants.
“Without faith… it is impossible to please God”

God’s in his grace/love provides the faith to be saved. Within that same foundation/ atmosphere of grace/love … more, new in-fillings of faith and love are given in order to stand against the onslaught of the enemy that we all face …
‘The testing of our faith produces endurance.’

Faith Hope and Love are all active in the process of obtaining and maintaining salvation … Paul said … the greatest of these is love … which is unmerited favor … which is grace.
So yes, grace is very important …Faith that pleases God cant operate without it… it is a firm foundation and the mortar that continually builds and strengthens faith.

… Thats my take.

Okay you said GOd in his GRACE provides faith to be saved. Now if this is true how can it be FAITH ALONE. Because you see that is what we are arguing about.

BY the Grace of GOd it is Possible to have faith, the more GRACE you have the easier it is to live OUT your faith. BUt what if you have faith but refuse to live it out? You still have faith but you refuse to us it. Are you still saved?

 

[rinnie]

rinnie, I think 1voice’s point is that he didn’t tell the Apostles to retain everyone’s sins.

This is a strawman, as no one has ever posited that priests must retain everyone’s sins.

P.R. it went right over my head, even when you explained it,

 

[PRmerger]

In the evangelical church I attended before becoming Catholic, I can actually remember this happening a handful of times over my 26 years there. When I say handful, I mean literally I could count them on one hand. One woman confessed an abortion, a few others confessed adultery/divorces/remarriage.

Yes, this certainly seems more biblical than the approach that is the norm in Protestant churches, which is, “I don’t need no stinkin’ confession, to a priest or to my church.”

 

[PRmerger]

The default position of a Priest is not to retain all sin that is not forgiven by him?

No, 1voice. There is no such thing as a “default position of a priest” regarding sins.

If we confess them, he may offer absolution or he may have to declare them retained.

But his “default position” is not to say “Your sins are retained unless you prove to me otherwise.”

 

[PRmerger]

Exactly … but the CC assumes the opposite. Sin Is retained by default.

If you mean that it is retained by the priest, then this is absurd. For a priest cannot retain a sin that he has no knowledge about, right?

It is my impression that (what you call mortal) sin, according to Catholic thinking, is automatically retained unless a Priest forgives it.

If it is retained, it is not by the priest, who has no knowledge of any sin unless it is confessed.

It is retained by God, and who could fault God for doing what He does?

If sin isnt retained by default … why involve a Priest in the process?

So the priest can offer God’s forgiveness. God does indeed retain the sin, unless you confess.

You believe this as well, right, except you believe that God retains the sin until repentance is offered?

If a woman cheats on her husband and then has a change of heart and stops doing it and receives forgiveness from her husband …the sin still remains unless a Priest is involved?

Do you believe the sin is retained until she asks God for forgiveness, or does she only need to ask her husband’s forgiveness?

But, yes, the sin remains unless she confesses her sin to a Priest.

 

[PRmerger]

Hi, 1voice. Just wondering if you could address these questions I posed earlier:

'kay. And how does your church apply this disciplinary tool?

'kay. And how is it that the Apostles could know whether someone was repentant or not, or even what her sins are, unless she confessed them to the Apostles?

Is this how your church does it? Your congregants must confess their sins to another, and then to the elders, and then to the entire church?

 

[1voice]

his “default position” is not to say “Your sins are retained unless you prove to me otherwise.”

I will pose the question this way …

If a woman cheats on her spouse … and has deep remorse before God… and realizes that she has broken faith with God and her husband … She repents before God with deep sorrow and tears … and confesses in the same way in humility to her husband … and he embraces and forgives … is it necessary to involve a priest?

 

[PRmerger]

I will pose the question this way …

If a woman cheats on her spouse … and has deep remorse before God… and realizes that she has broken faith with God and her husband … She repents before God with deep sorrow and tears … and confesses in the same way in humility to her husband … and he embraces and forgives … is it necessary to involve a priest?

Indeed it is.

God has revealed to us how we are forgiven for our sins.

[BIBLEDRB]James 5:14-16[/BIBLEDRB]

The early Christians understood this and confessed their sins to a priest.

From the Didache: Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life" (4:14 [as early as A.D. 70]).source

Who are we to decide that we don’t like this way and make up a different system: “I don’t need to go to a priest. I don’t want to have to tell anyone else my sins. I can simply confess them to God and I am forgiven.”

 

[ddarko]

I will pose the question this way …

If a woman cheats on her spouse … and has deep remorse before God… and realizes that she has broken faith with God and her husband … She repents before God with deep sorrow and tears … and confesses in the same way in humility to her husband … and he embraces and forgives … is it necessary to involve a priest?

Yes. The husband has no power to absolve sins.

God Bless

 

[SteveGC]

I will pose the question this way …

If a woman cheats on her spouse … and has deep remorse before God… and realizes that she has broken faith with God and her husband … She repents before God with deep sorrow and tears … and confesses in the same way in humility to her husband … and he embraces and forgives … is it necessary to involve a priest?

For clarity, I will just add…

yes, it is only way we can know for certain that the grave sin has been absolved. Without sacramental confession, absolution is unknown, yet arguably not given. However, God certainly knows their hearts, their knowledge of truth, their state in life.

God’s people are to work within the sacraments. God Himself is obviously capable of working outside of them as needed. The former is revealed truth. The latter is a mystery.

 

[pablope]

I will pose the question this way …

If a woman cheats on her spouse … and has deep remorse before God… and realizes that she has broken faith with God and her husband … She repents before God with deep sorrow and tears … and confesses in the same way in humility to her husband … and he embraces and forgives … is it necessary to involve a priest?

It is for the same reason that God ordered Job’s friends to go through him for them to be forgiven of their offense against God:.

From Job 42:

7 It came about after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right as My servant Job has. 8 Now therefore, take for yourselves seven bulls and seven rams, and go to My servant Job, and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves, and My servant Job will pray for you. For I will [a]accept him so that I may not do with you according to your folly, because you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has.” 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went and did as the LORD told them; and the LORD **accepted Job.

Here you see God directly communicating with Eliphaz…but God does not forgive him, instead Eliphaz is instructed to offer through Job for him and his 2 friends to be forgiven of their offense.

Now, why did God not just directly forgive Eliphaz? Why the need to go through Job?**