If i forgive you, must i make amends with you

[JRKH]

Perhaps, James. I mean, that sounds reasonable to me. But then, I hear Jesus say:

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.”

(Matthew 5:43-45)

And I’m speechless! I mean, love my enemies? How do I accomplish that?



If forgiveness is a kind of love, then do I forgive my enemies? And to what extent do I forgive them? How far must this unreasonable love of those who hate go?



We’re getting in deep, now! But it’s a good deep, I think. It’s diving into the depth of the very essence of God, and such deepness is worthy of trying to grasp.

And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

(Ephesians 3:17-19)

Don’t you agree?

Jesus goes on to say this:
{5:46} For if you love those who love you, what reward will you have? Do not even tax collectors behave this way?
{5:47} And if you greet only your brothers, what more have you done? Do not even the pagans behave this way?
{5:48} Therefore, be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Now I will put to you a situation.

When we sin we are refusing God’s Love. Does this mean that God stops loving us?
If we commit a mortal sin we make ourselves enemies of God. Does this mean that God stops Loving us?
If we repent and return to God we make ourselves friends of God. Does that mean that God Loves us more?
In each of the cases above it can be seen that God’s Love remains constant and complete. It is WE who make the choices. The choice to be near God or to be far from Him. God does not change, we do.

Now to apply this to our relationships with our Neighbor, that is our fellow man, - even our enemy. If we Love our fellow man for the Love of God, then we will hold no malice toward them, we will pray for them and hope they may be saved by the grace of Almighty God.
In this Love we must be like our Father who is perfect. That is to say we must, ourselves, remain in God’s Love and not sin against our fellow man by hate, revenge etc. In this way we can see that, if the other fellow refuses to be reconsiled to us, refuses to repent of his sin against us and aginst God, it is not we who have refused to forgive and be reconsiled, but they.

Now to take this to the next step, we see that our Love, founded in God’s Love and united with God’s Love cannot change for God’s Love toward us does not change. So long as we remain in God’s Love we do not sin, even if we cannot be reconsiled to our fellow due to their lack of repentance and true contrition. In this it is not our love that is insufficiant but theirs.
If our fellow comes to us with repentance and contrition then we, trying to, “be perfect, even as (our) heavenly Father is perfect”, must forgive them and accept them back. If the fall again and repent again we must accept them back again. Just as God does with us.
If such should continue though and they continue to fall such that their repentance becomes false, there may be consequences for them - penance as it were - in some form or other. Such penance might be a lack of trust on the part of those they hurt. A lack of closeness and intimacy that might have previously existed.
These penances can come from two sources. One being from us, where our Love is still imperfect and we feel we must protect ourselves by distance. The second is from them where their continual and repeated guilt builds up in them a need for caution and fear.

I find I am, as usual, talking too much.
The bottom line is that our Love needs to be “perfect”, that is our Love needs to be God’s Love. That Love is perfect and unchangable. If we remain in such Love, then it is up to our “enemy” to change and become perfect in God’s Love as well. When this occurs, we rejoice for our brother has been restored to us - Like the pearl of great price.

Peace
James

 

[spockrates]

Jesus goes on to say this:
{5:46} For if you love those who love you, what reward will you have? Do not even tax collectors behave this way?
{5:47} And if you greet only your brothers, what more have you done? Do not even the pagans behave this way?
{5:48} Therefore, be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Now I will put to you a situation.

When we sin we are refusing God’s Love. Does this mean that God stops loving us?
If we commit a mortal sin we make ourselves enemies of God. Does this mean that God stops Loving us?
If we repent and return to God we make ourselves friends of God. Does that mean that God Loves us more?
In each of the cases above it can be seen that God’s Love remains constant and complete. It is WE who make the choices. The choice to be near God or to be far from Him. God does not change, we do.
…

I must say, James, that I thought we were diving into depths of understanding new to both of us. But I see that you’ve been down this far before! Lead on, SCUBA instructor! I will follow.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Following your lead.

 

[spockrates]

… Now I will put to you a situation.

When we sin we are refusing God’s Love. Does this mean that God stops loving us?
If we commit a mortal sin we make ourselves enemies of God. Does this mean that God stops Loving us?
If we repent and return to God we make ourselves friends of God. Does that mean that God Loves us more?
…

And a good situation it is in which to be! I’d say that a picture is worth a thousand words, so please allow me to answer using this one:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Here we see that God’s Love has at least three aspects represented by concentric circles–love in thought (the red circle), love in words (the yellow circle), and love in deeds (the green circle). Now not all Love is forgiveness. So forgiveness is represented by the intersecting ellipses: Ellipses (o) represent God’s offering forgiveness. Ellipses (m) denotes God’s showing mercy. Ellipses (r) represents God’s restoring or establishing a relationship.

My answer, then, is this:

First, God forgives those who become saints and who, upon death, immediately enter Heaven in the sense of (r1), (r2) and (r3), which is restoring or establishing a relationship by virtue of His thoughts, words and deeds.

Second, God forgives those who, upon death, enter Purgatory in the sense of (m1), (m2) and (m3), which is showing mercy, but not restoring or establishing the same relationship experienced by the saints.

Third, God forgives (if such a word applies) those who enter Hell upon death in the sense of (o1), (o2) and (o3), which is offering forgiveness. In the case of those condemned for ever and ever, the offer was never accepted, so such forgiveness does not reach it’s potential of (r). Neither does such forgiveness amount to (m), for causing someone to burn in Hell cannot possibly be considered an act of mercy.

I’m sure my simplistic drawing is worth a thousand more words, but do you think it captures the basic essence of forgiveness?

 

[spockrates]

…
Now to apply this to our relationships with our Neighbor, that is our fellow man, - even our enemy. If we Love our fellow man for the Love of God, then we will hold no malice toward them, we will pray for them and hope they may be saved by the grace of Almighty God.
In this Love we must be like our Father who is perfect. That is to say we must, ourselves, remain in God’s Love and not sin against our fellow man by hate, revenge etc. In this way we can see that, if the other fellow refuses to be reconsiled to us, refuses to repent of his sin against us and aginst God, it is not we who have refused to forgive and be reconsiled, but they.
…

Are you are saying, then, that we forgive everyone (even our enemies) in the sense of (o1) and (o2) and (o3)? And are you also saying that whether we forgive in the sense of (r1) and (r2) and (r3) depends on how the person responds? Moreover, do you believe that forgiveness in the sense of (m1) and (m2) and (m3) is also dependent on the recipient’s response?

What I sense you are saying is that we should offer forgiveness unconditionally, but show mercy and restore relationships conditionally. Am I following you, my deep-sea diving instructor?

 

[spockrates]

…
Now to take this to the next step, we see that our Love, founded in God’s Love and united with God’s Love cannot change for God’s Love toward us does not change. So long as we remain in God’s Love we do not sin, even if we cannot be reconsiled to our fellow due to their lack of repentance and true contrition. In this it is not our love that is insufficiant but theirs.
If our fellow comes to us with repentance and contrition then we, trying to, “be perfect, even as (our) heavenly Father is perfect”, must forgive them and accept them back. If the fall again and repent again we must accept them back again. Just as God does with us.
If such should continue though and they continue to fall such that their repentance becomes false, there may be consequences for them - penance as it were - in some form or other. Such penance might be a lack of trust on the part of those they hurt. A lack of closeness and intimacy that might have previously existed.
These penances can come from two sources. One being from us, where our Love is still imperfect and we feel we must protect ourselves by distance. The second is from them where their continual and repeated guilt builds up in them a need for caution and fear.

I find I am, as usual, talking too much.
The bottom line is that our Love needs to be “perfect”, that is our Love needs to be God’s Love. That Love is perfect and unchangable. If we remain in such Love, then it is up to our “enemy” to change and become perfect in God’s Love as well. When this occurs, we rejoice for our brother has been restored to us - Like the pearl of great price.

Peace
James

Talking too much? By no means! But let me pause a moment to hear your answer to my previous replies before we dive any deeper into the depths of divine Love, Mercy and Forgiveness.

 

[JRKH]

Are you are saying, then, that we forgive everyone (even our enemies) in the sense of (o1) and (o2) and (o3)? And are you also saying that whether we forgive in the sense of (r1) and (r2) and (r3) depends on how the person responds? Moreover, do you believe that forgiveness in the sense of (m1) and (m2) and (m3) is also dependent on the recipient’s response?

What I sense you are saying is that we should offer forgiveness unconditionally, but show mercy and restore relationships conditionally. Am I following you, my deep-sea diving instructor?

In offering forgiveness we are already showing mercy. After all this is what God does for us. It is from His infinite Love and Mercy that He offers us forgiveness.
We show that same mercy through our forgiving of another.
As for restoration of relationships - relationships can only exist when both parties participate. If one party repents and forgives but the other party refuses to repent and forgive, there can be no relationship, certainly no personal relationship built on Godly Love.
This does not mean that one cannot have aquaintance with, work with, treat fairly, etc someone who has unrepentantly hurt them. Quite the contrary, we should. For it is by such incommunication that an “enemy”, a lost soul, might be returned to God.

Peace
James

 

[spockrates]

In offering forgiveness we are already showing mercy. After all this is what God does for us. It is from His infinite Love and Mercy that He offers us forgiveness.
We show that same mercy through our forgiving of another.
As for restoration of relationships - relationships can only exist when both parties participate. If one party repents and forgives but the other party refuses to repent and forgive, there can be no relationship, certainly no personal relationship built on Godly Love.
This does not mean that one cannot have aquaintance with, work with, treat fairly, etc someone who has unrepentantly hurt them. Quite the contrary, we should. For it is by such incommunication that an “enemy”, a lost soul, might be returned to God.

Peace
James

mer⋅cy

[mur-see]

–noun, plural -cies for 4, 5.

1. 
   *]compassionate or kindly forbearance shown toward an offender, an enemy, or other person in one’s power; compassion, pity, or benevolence: Have mercy on the poor sinner.
   *]the disposition to be compassionate or forbearing: an adversary wholly without mercy.
   *]the discretionary power of a judge to pardon someone or to mitigate punishment, esp. to send to prison rather than invoke the death penalty.
   *]an act of kindness, compassion, or favor: She has performed countless small mercies for her friends and neighbors.
   *]something that gives evidence of divine favor; blessing: It was just a mercy we had our seat belts on when it happened.
   —Idiom
   *]at the mercy of, entirely in the power of; subject to: They were at the mercy of their captors. Also, at one’s mercy.
   
   Yes, how thoughtless of me, James! I was mistaken in thinking all mercy is forgiveness.
   
   
   
   The truth, as you point out, is the opposite: Not *all *mercy is forgiveness, though all forgiveness *is indeed *mercy. Forgiveness, then, is a kind or category of mercy. And mercy, in turn, is a type or class of love. Would you say this is a more accurate picture?
   
   (Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[spockrates]

In offering forgiveness we are already showing mercy. After all this is what God does for us. It is from His infinite Love and Mercy that He offers us forgiveness.
We show that same mercy through our forgiving of another.
As for restoration of relationships - relationships can only exist when both parties participate. If one party repents and forgives but the other party refuses to repent and forgive, there can be no relationship, certainly no personal relationship built on Godly Love.
This does not mean that one cannot have aquaintance with, work with, treat fairly, etc someone who has unrepentantly hurt them. Quite the contrary, we should. For it is by such incommunication that an “enemy”, a lost soul, might be returned to God.

Peace
James

Having considered more carefully where you are leading me, James, I’m now thinking this is a more accurate depiction of the truth.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

It seems, then, that all forgiveness is mercy. And there are degrees of forgiveness:

1. 
   *]unconditional forgiveness (u), where God overlooks a sin committed in ignorance
   *]offering forgiveness (o) , where God offers forgiveness to one who is aware of one’s sin
   *]partially forgiving (p), where God partially pardons sins, or otherwise does not cause someone to suffer the full consequences for one’s sin
   *]restoring, or establishing, a relationship (r), where God completely forgives and allows one to be at His side
   
   In the case of (o), (p) and (r) specific conditions might have to be met before God will exercise that degree of forgiveness. (For example, one might have to repent of mortal sin before before God will partially pardon the person (p) and allow the person to escape Hell and make it to Purgatory. On the other hand, one might have to meet more stringent requirements to go directly to Heaven without making a stop at Purgatory.)
   
   It would seem likely, then, that you or I cannot experience God’s (r) without also experiencing His (p) and (o) and perhaps even (u). But it’s also entirely possible that we might never experience God’s (r), even though we experience (p) and (o) and (u). And some (God forbid!) might never experience (r) or (p), having refused (o) and having loved their mortal sins more than Him.
   
   Does this sound like a deep truth, James, or a shallow misconception?
   
   (Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
   
   Maybe I’m merely in shallow water?

 

[JRKH]

Having considered more carefully where you are leading me, James, I’m now thinking this is a more accurate depiction of the truth.

(snip)

It seems, then, that all forgiveness is mercy. And there are degrees of forgiveness:

1. 
   *]unconditional forgiveness (u), where God overlooks a sin committed in ignorance
   *]offering forgiveness (o) , where God offers forgiveness to one who is aware of one’s sin
   *]partially forgiving (p), where God partially pardons sins, or otherwise does not cause someone to suffer the full consequences for one’s sin
   *]restoring, or establishing, a relationship (r), where God completely forgives and allows one to be at His side
   
   **In the case of (o), (p) and (r) specific conditions might have to be met before God will exercise that degree of forgiveness. ** (For example, one might have to repent of mortal sin before before God will partially pardon the person (p) and allow the person to escape Hell and make it to Purgatory. On the other hand, one might have to meet more stringent requirements to go directly to Heaven without making a stop at Purgatory.)
   
   It would seem likely, then, that you or I cannot experience God’s (r) without also experiencing His (p) and (o) and perhaps even (u). But it’s also entirely possible that we might never experience God’s (r), even though we experience (p) and (o) and (u). And some (God forbid!) might never experience (r) or (p), having refused (o) and having loved their mortal sins more than Him.
   
   Does this sound like a deep truth, James, or a shallow misconception?
   
   http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbntUebjNEag548M:http://www.southerncruising.com/images/contentmanaged/RCI_Labadee_BeachKid%20Small%20Web%20view.jpg
   
   Maybe I’m merely in shallow water?

1. 
   No I don’t think you are in shallow water.
   
   I bolded the portion above because I do not think of God as" choosing to excersize forgiveness" in the way you describe. Rather I see it as God providing such forgiveness and it is up to us to make the choice.
   Jesus said “…Ask and you shall receive, knock and it will be opened to you…”.
   It is we who “ask” forgiveness, through our contrition. (thoughts, words)
   It is we who “knock” for mercy and restoration, through our efforts at repentance and penance. (words, deeds)
   Naturally none of this would be possible without the unmerited gift of God’s grace, but we must never underestimate the necessity of our acting on that grace.
   
   As for your pictorial, I must say I have not studied on it a great deal, though I like the concept. In geneal I like it, but have a question. The Love which you label at the bottom is God’s Love? If so then I do not think there is any portion of God’s Love that does not include mercy and the other pieces you indicate. If the dark portion is to represent one who is condemed to hell, then such a one is completely outside of God’s Love by their own choice.
   Perhaps I am just misreading what you are trying to convey. If so, no real matter so long as it works for you.
   
   If one exists, truly exists, within God’s Love, then one also exists fully in God’s Mercy. Then one will offer such Love and mercy to others for their Love of God.
   If one exists outside of God’s Love, that is has rejected God’s Love, the error lies with him and not with God. There can be no Love from God which condemns. There can only be mans choice to reject that Love and by so doing condemn himself.
   
   I liken such to a man who, after a shipwreck, is floating in the water. A helicopter comes and lowers a rope, the man refuses the rope and swims away. A rescuer jumps in and he tries to drown the rescuer. Who’s fault is it when he drowns.
   The Helicopeter crew? The Rescuer?
   Certainly not. Their intent was to save. Their hearts weep, helpless, as they watch the man sink from sight, but they could do no more. They provided the means. It was the man in the water who made the choice.
   The same with God - He provides the means, it is up to us to make us of those means and not reject them.
   
   Peace
   James

 

[MargaretLFY]

In reading over this thread I’ve realized something. That I need to pray for the person that sinned against me to want to repent in front of God. Although, I can’t ever see myself being friendly with the person she is now but the person she would be in front of God is a person we’d all like to know, her past sins would be nothing importance because of who she is in front of God would be wonderful. As wonderful as we all are in front of God, unique individuals but still someone anyone who loves God would want to know.

Sin is unattractive for those who reject sin and are trying to be good. So I’m bound to get the sin mixed up with the person but if I can see the person how God would see them then I would see who they could be without sin. A very attractive person. The kicker is to love the person not the sin. I’ve heard this and read it but never got to separate the sin out and see the person as God see’s them without sin and loving Him.

Now, if the person refuses God and continues to sin and doesn’t acknowledge the sinning then the sin has taken over that person. That is what I’m rejecting. The sin is so large at that point it is hard if not impossible for a mere human to get to the real person underneath. In that case, prayer is the answer.

Geez, I feel silly I never understood it this clearly before. Any comments? Am I missing something?

 

[JRKH]

In reading over this thread I’ve realized something. That I need to pray for the person that sinned against me to want to repent in front of God. Although, I can’t ever see myself being friendly with the person she is now but the person she would be in front of God is a person we’d all like to know, her past sins would be nothing importance because of who she is in front of God would be wonderful. As wonderful as we all are in front of God, unique individuals but still someone anyone who loves God would want to know.

Sin is unattractive for those who reject sin and are trying to be good. So I’m bound to get the sin mixed up with the person but if I can see the person how God would see them then I would see who they could be without sin. A very attractive person. The kicker is to love the person not the sin. I’ve heard this and read it but never got to separate the sin out and see the person as God see’s them without sin and loving Him.

Now, if the person refuses God and continues to sin and doesn’t acknowledge the sinning then the sin has taken over that person. That is what I’m rejecting. The sin is so large at that point it is hard if not impossible for a mere human to get to the real person underneath. In that case, prayer is the answer.

Geez, I feel silly I never understood it this clearly before. Any comments? Am I missing something?

It does not sound as though you are missing anything to me - except possibly the part about not being “…friendly to the person she is now…”. I’m not sure about this part.

While I certainly agree that there are times when we must physically and emotionally distance ourselves from an individual, I think that we should never stop being “friendly” to them if and when we encounter them. We should be civil and courtious. To be otherwise would only encourage the person not to repent and make amends with us should they wish to do so. Further it places us on the “moral high ground” in the eyes of others; something which we should aspire to, not for our selfish sakes but, for the sake of our witness to Christ and for the good of the other’s soul.

Peace
James

 

[spockrates]

In reading over this thread I’ve realized something. That I need to pray for the person that sinned against me to want to repent in front of God. Although, I can’t ever see myself being friendly with the person she is now but the person she would be in front of God is a person we’d all like to know, her past sins would be nothing importance because of who she is in front of God would be wonderful. As wonderful as we all are in front of God, unique individuals but still someone anyone who loves God would want to know.

Sin is unattractive for those who reject sin and are trying to be good. So I’m bound to get the sin mixed up with the person but if I can see the person how God would see them then I would see who they could be without sin. A very attractive person. The kicker is to love the person not the sin. I’ve heard this and read it but never got to separate the sin out and see the person as God see’s them without sin and loving Him.

Now, if the person refuses God and continues to sin and doesn’t acknowledge the sinning then the sin has taken over that person. That is what I’m rejecting. The sin is so large at that point it is hard if not impossible for a mere human to get to the real person underneath. In that case, prayer is the answer.

Geez, I feel silly I never understood it this clearly before. Any comments? Am I missing something?

Yes, Margaret, I agree. And I see that the same Spirit of Truth who spoke to Saint Paul the Apostle spoke to you!



And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

(2 Timothy 2:24-26)

 

[spockrates]

No I don’t think you are in shallow water.

I bolded the portion above because I do not think of God as" choosing to excersize forgiveness" in the way you describe. Rather I see it as God providing such forgiveness and it is up to us to make the choice.

Yes, makes sense to me. And offering forgiveness cannot rightly be called the same as forgiving. An offer does not an acceptance make! I should modify the simple drawing.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[spockrates]

…
As for your pictorial, I must say I have not studied on it a great deal, though I like the concept. In geneal I like it, but have a question. The Love which you label at the bottom is God’s Love? If so then I do not think there is any portion of God’s Love that does not include mercy and the other pieces you indicate. If the dark portion is to represent one who is condemed to hell, then such a one is completely outside of God’s Love by their own choice.
Perhaps I am just misreading what you are trying to convey. If so, no real matter so long as it works for you. …

The graphic representation is an expression of how I currently see God’s Love, Mercy and Forgiveness. Everything within the concentric circles is His Love. Mercy, on the other hand is only part of His Love. And Forgiveness is only part of His mercy. Hence, all Forgiveness is Love, but not all Love is Forgiveness. And All Forgiveness is Mercy, but not all Mercy is Forgiveness. And All Mercy is Love, but not all Love is Mercy. The representation will change as I change my mind (which, you see, is quite frequently)!

In answer to your question about whether all of God’s Love is Mercy, that would mean that Love and Mercy are synonymous, as far as God is concerned. Wouldn’t it? And perhaps that is the case with disobedient brats like you and me (or at least like me). But I think you will agree that there are times when God’s love is not merciful. Take, for example, this expression of the Father’s love in Matthew’s gospel:

And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

(Matthew 3:17)

If we consider the whole of God’s love, and not just his love for the unlovely, we must take into account His love for His Son. And His Son, having never disobeyed His Father, has no need of His Father’s mercy. Does this sound accurate?

http://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/pics/Jesus_Son_of_god_Holy_Spirit.JPG

**God’s Son, whom He Loved **

 

[spockrates]

…

If one exists, truly exists, within God’s Love, then one also exists fully in God’s Mercy. Then one will offer such Love and mercy to others for their Love of God.
If one exists outside of God’s Love, that is has rejected God’s Love, the error lies with him and not with God. There can be no Love from God which condemns. There can only be mans choice to reject that Love and by so doing condemn himself.

I liken such to a man who, after a shipwreck, is floating in the water. A helicopter comes and lowers a rope, the man refuses the rope and swims away. A rescuer jumps in and he tries to drown the rescuer. Who’s fault is it when he drowns.
The Helicopeter crew? The Rescuer?
Certainly not. Their intent was to save. Their hearts weep, helpless, as they watch the man sink from sight, but they could do no more. They provided the means. It was the man in the water who made the choice.
The same with God - He provides the means, it is up to us to make us of those means and not reject them.

Peace
James

Good illustration, that! Do you think, then (as I at the moment do) that God’s throwing us a life saver is an act of *actual *Mercy, but only an act of *potential *Forgiveness? It seems to me that, in the case of being forgiven by God, it often (though not always) takes two to forgive (God offering, and my accepting).

http://www.redbookmag.com/cm/redbook/images/mi/life-saver-md.jpg

Does it take two to forgive?

 

[JRKH]

Good illustration, that! Do you think, then (as I at the moment do) that God’s throwing us a life saver is an act of *actual *Mercy, but only an act of *potential *Forgiveness? It seems to me that, in the case of being forgiven by God, it often (though not always) takes two to forgive (God offering, and my accepting).

Does it take two to forgive?

Spock,
No I don’t think that it takes two to forgive. Each must repent and forgive in their own heart.

For example, say that you and I got into an agument here over some matter or other. Feelings are hurt on both sides, but you decide to forgive me and send me a charitable post expressing your forgiveness of me and asking my forgiveness of you. I respond by renouncing your forgiveness and declare I will have no more to do with you.

Does my rejection of your offer change whether you have forgiven me?
Wouldn’t your forgiveness of me remain present and still be in force if say 6 months or a year from now I send you a PM in which I repent and ask your forgiveness and restoration of our relationship?

Rejection of forgieness prevents the restoration of a relationship but it has no effect on one persons forgiveness of another.
The person who repents and forgives remains in God’s Love, the one who rejects repentance and forgiveness remains outside of God’s love, - Just where they have placed themselves.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

The graphic representation is an expression of how I currently see God’s Love, Mercy and Forgiveness. Everything within the concentric circles is His Love. Mercy, on the other hand is only part of His Love. And Forgiveness is only part of His mercy. Hence, all Forgiveness is Love, but not all Love is Forgiveness. And All Forgiveness is Mercy, but not all Mercy is Forgiveness. And All Mercy is Love, but not all Love is Mercy. The representation will change as I change my mind (which, you see, is quite frequently)!

Thanks for the explanation. I think I understand a bit better now.

In answer to your question about whether all of God’s Love is Mercy, that would mean that Love and Mercy are synonymous, as far as God is concerned. Wouldn’t it? And perhaps that is the case with disobedient brats like you and me (or at least like me). But I think you will agree that there are times when God’s love is not merciful. Take, for example, this expression of the Father’s love in Matthew’s gospel:

And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

(Matthew 3:17)

If we consider the whole of God’s love, and not just his love for the unlovely, we must take into account His love for His Son. And His Son, having never disobeyed His Father, has no need of His Father’s mercy. Does this sound accurate?

Interesting connection. However, I think that Love and mercy, while not the same thing, are still hopelessly interconnected.
The only thing I can say is that we know that Love is the overarching requirement for all of the Law and All of the Prophets (Mt 22:36-40). Mercy is a necessary part of Love. It is like the old argument about faith vs works. In reality faith and works are not opposed but rather faith, if it is real and of God, leads to works. Same with Love and Mercy, Love for God must lead to Merciful actions toward others on our part.

Now mercy does not necessarily mean everything is a bed of roses. God permits suffering in our lives and even in the lives of those, like St Therese of Liseaux, who dedicate themselves wholeheartedly, and from a young age, to His service in Love. Why? Is God not merciful?
Not at all. Rather God allows suffering for our own good. That we may learn and grow and bond more closely to Him in Love.
God was merciful to all mankind by taking on our suffering through the humanity of His Son. Remember that as Jesus suffered , the Father suffered for the Father and the Son are one. Is a God who chooses to suffer for His Children not merciful, even in suffering?

Peace
James

 

[MargaretLFY]

Dear James,

Yes, I agree that politeness and rising above sin is the way to go. “Friendly” meant to go towards being friends. There are mental health issues that are triggered for her when she sees me and anyone like my kids, which at one time I thought was really unusual but I have since found at least one other person that had a sibling 8 years older than they who resented them for being born too and the resentment still goes on even though the younger of the to is in their 70’s. Similar situation although it was younger brother instead of two sisters.

Anyway…I sincerely pray for my sister to be able to be in front of God in Heaven and find the peace she needs to get there while still here on earth.

 

[MargaretLFY]

*Yes, Margaret, I agree. And I see that the same Spirit of Truth who spoke to Saint Paul the Apostle spoke to you!

And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

(2 Timothy 2:24-26)*

Dear Spockartes,

Thanks for the encouragement…

 

[spockrates]

Spock,
No I don’t think that it takes two to forgive. Each must repent and forgive in their own heart.

For example, say that you and I got into an agument here over some matter or other. Feelings are hurt on both sides, but you decide to forgive me and send me a charitable post expressing your forgiveness of me and asking my forgiveness of you. I respond by renouncing your forgiveness and declare I will have no more to do with you.

Does my rejection of your offer change whether you have forgiven me?
Wouldn’t your forgiveness of me remain present and still be in force if say 6 months or a year from now I send you a PM in which I repent and ask your forgiveness and restoration of our relationship?

Rejection of forgieness prevents the restoration of a relationship but it has no effect on one persons forgiveness of another.
The person who repents and forgives remains in God’s Love, the one who rejects repentance and forgiveness remains outside of God’s love, - Just where they have placed themselves.

Peace
James

But is offering something the same thing as giving something?

Is being offered something the same thing as receiving something?

Consider this example:

I’m on a hunger strike and dying of starvation. You offer me some food. I refuse to take it, saying I’d rather die than accept food from you. Later that day I do indeed die from lack of food. Would you then claim that you fed me? If not, then doesn’t this mean that offering food is not the same as feeding?

If this is true, how then is offering forgiveness the same as forgiving?


**
Is offering food the same as feeding?
Is offering forgiveness the same as forgiving?**