If it wasn't true

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MH84 said:
If Jesus’ death did not make atonement for sins, how is His High Priesltly role any different to that of other Jewish high priests. What I mean is that all the other high priests were performing sacrifices for the sins of themselves and the people already, but those sacrifices had to be repeated over and over again because they were imperfect.

I don’t think that Jesus died and then became High Priest. He was High Priest because of the perfect sacrifice of Himself on Calvary. What was the point of Jesus giving up His life so that he could merely be Mediator? Moses was a mediator between God and men and he didnt have to die so he could perform that role.
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But Jesus did have to die if he wanted to be honored with the role.

Hebrews 5:8-10 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Then we bring our prayer offerings of repentance just like an animal to Jesus the High Priest, and he sends them up to God as a burnt offering for our sins. Then we are forgiven.

So our sacrifices STILL have to be repeated over and over again because they are our prayers to God, and our repentance each time we sin.

The difference is with Jesus is that they aren’t animals but prayers, and as Melchizedek greater than Abraham Jesus makes atonement for all people of the world, not just the Jews as Aaron did.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
But Jesus did have to die if he wanted to be honored with the role.

Hebrews 5:8-10 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Then we bring our prayer offerings of repentance just like an animal to Jesus the High Priest, and he sends them up to God as a burnt offering for our sins. Then we are forgiven.

So our sacrifices STILL have to be repeated over and over again because they are our prayers to God, and our repentance each time we sin.

The difference is with Jesus is that they aren’t animals but prayers, and as Melchizedek greater than Abraham Jesus makes atonement for all people of the world, not just the Jews as Aaron did.
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This is interesting. If you don’t mind, could you tell me, are you Christian or Muslim or what? (PM me if you want).

But Hebrews says that Jesus was already a Son. How could he have to learn obedience? In Christian theology, I think this means that the human nature of Christ had to learn obedience, but as the divine Son He was always God.

You are saying that Jesus became the Messiah by His death arent you? But if He was already Son, doesnt that mean he was always going to be the Messiah as well without doubt?
 
Dear FoA,

Please refer to your posting #55. I do sincerely believe that you have a lot to say from the bible which you interpret your way.

Could you please share with us your interpretation. How do you think that Mat 7:21 has something to do with posting #55. I am sure you have many more verses which make you come out with your interpretation.

As I said before, I welcome your interpretation no matter how different it is.
 
MH84 said:
This is interesting. If you don’t mind, could you tell me, are you Christian or Muslim or what? (PM me if you want).

But Hebrews says that Jesus was already a Son. How could he have to learn obedience? In Christian theology, I think this means that the human nature of Christ had to learn obedience, but as the divine Son He was always God.

You are saying that Jesus became the Messiah by His death arent you? But if He was already Son, doesnt that mean he was always going to be the Messiah as well without doubt?
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Sure, now that we know Jesus is Messiah then we know he was always going to be Messiah, that’s God’s plan now.

But he didn’t know for sure, as he prayed in Gethsemane for God to relive him of his trial if He could. If he knew for sure he wouldn’t have ever asked. So Jesus was human.

I’m Muslim so I believe he is just that, not born a God, but a man God gave all power to so that Jesus is like God over us and we have to obey him as if he is God, even though Jesus is a servant of God himself.
 
Namesake said:
If the immaculate conception was disavowed by the Roman Church would Jesus Christ be diminished in your faith?
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Well, it would mean two things:

a) Jesus Christ would have failed in His promises. If the Church founded upon the Apostles, whom He promised to guide into all truth, ended up having dogmatically proclaimed an erroneous teaching, it would make a total mockery of his declaration that ‘who hears you hears me’.

b) Jesus Christ wasn’t really perfect sinless Man. If Mary had the least taint of original sin then, being the sole source of Jesus’ humanity (He had no human father), He would have taken on her sin-nature. She had to be pure just as the Ark of the Covenant had to be made of the purest and finest materials.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
Sure, now that we know Jesus is Messiah then we know he was always going to be Messiah, that’s God’s plan now.

But he didn’t know for sure, as he prayed in Gethsemane for God to relive him of his trial if He could. If he knew for sure he wouldn’t have ever asked. So Jesus was human.

I’m Muslim so I believe he is just that, not born a God, but a man God gave all power to so that Jesus and we have to obey him as if he is God, even though Jesus is a servant of God himself.
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  1. But the Bible says that Jesus was the Son of God. Jesus called Himself the “Son of God”. If he knew He was Son of God before the Crucifixion, how come He didnt know that He would be the Messiah and High Priest until after God had given Him those titles?
  2. You have probably heard this a hundred times already, but if Jesus “is like God over us”, as you say, how does the testimony of Muhammed fit into the picture? Muslims claim that is the prophet of the world. But if as you say, that Jesus is the Mediator between God and men, how can the later testimony of Mohammed be true. Especially, when he claims that those who worship Jesus commit an unforgiveable sin (or something like that in the Quran).
Thanks
 
LilyM said:
Well, it would mean two things:

a) Jesus Christ would have failed in His promises. If the Church founded upon the Apostles, whom He promised to guide into all truth, ended up having dogmatically proclaimed an erroneous teaching, it would make a total mockery of his declaration that ‘who hears you hears me’.

b) Jesus Christ wasn’t really perfect sinless Man. If Mary had the least taint of original sin then, being the sole source of Jesus’ humanity (He had no human father), He would have taken on her sin-nature. She had to be pure just as the Ark of the Covenant had to be made of the purest and finest materials.
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With part a), if the Church would backtrack on this doctrine, then all of the declarations of the Church would almost be meaningless. That means the Holy Spirit would have left the Church, because either the Church made a mistake in defining the doctrine, or the evil one has led the Chuch to not believe in the dcotrine anymore.

With part b) I think this is an excellent thought. One that I have never heard of before. This is a great apologetic for the doctrine.
 
MH84 said:
  1. But the Bible says that Jesus was the Son of God. Jesus called Himself the “Son of God”. If he knew He was Son of God before the Crucifixion, how come He didnt know that He would be the Messiah and High Priest until after God had given Him those titles?
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He had faith in what God told him, he was told all that before the cross, but he wasn’t a God that he would know for sure. He did it by faith not fact which makes him so special and better than if he were a God who had all the facts.
MH84 said:
  1. You have probably heard this a hundred times already, but if Jesus “is like God over us”, as you say, how does the testimony of Muhammed fit into the picture? Muslims claim that is the prophet of the world. But if as you say, that Jesus is the Mediator between God and men, how can the later testimony of Mohammed be true. Especially, when he claims that those who worship Jesus commit an unforgiveable sin (or something like that in the Quran).
Thanks
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The Quran just says Christians are confused about Trinity, it never says they will burn forever for the confusion. The Quran says Jesus is Messiah, and if Mohammed was a real honest to God prophet then he knew what Messiah means from prophecy: David’s promised King of the World and High Priest like Melchizedek.

Problem is Muslims have been brainwashed against the Bible, even though Quran 3:3 says the Bible is from God, so most don’t even know what Messiah means. They think Christ is just his last name, I guess.
 
LilyM said:
Well, it would mean two things:

a) Jesus Christ would have failed in His promises. If the Church founded upon the Apostles, whom He promised to guide into all truth, ended up having dogmatically proclaimed an erroneous teaching, it would make a total mockery of his declaration that ‘who hears you hears me’.

b) Jesus Christ wasn’t really perfect sinless Man. If Mary had the least taint of original sin then, being the sole source of Jesus’ humanity (He had no human father), He would have taken on her sin-nature. She had to be pure just as the Ark of the Covenant had to be made of the purest and finest materials.
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Original sin isn’t about your own sins, which is what Jesus was sinless of, but Adam’s sin and the curse of physical death. If Jesus didn’t carry that curse with the rest of us then he could never die and be resurrected.
 
Faith of Abraham, I am curious, what do you think Jesus meant when he said " If you have seen me, you have seen the Father"
 
janw said:
Faith of Abraham, I am curious, what do you think Jesus meant when he said " If you have seen me, you have seen the Father"
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I think he meant something like this:

Exodus 4:16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou (MOSES) shalt be to him instead of God.

If Jesus perfectly obeyed everything God told him to do and say, he is the same as God to us, though still a human and servant to God. He’s the face and spokesman for God, though a man.
 
FaithofAbraham said:
He had faith in what God told him, he was told all that before the cross, but he wasn’t a God that he would know for sure. He did it by faith not fact which makes him so special and better than if he were a God who had all the facts…

…The Quran just says Christians are confused about Trinity, it never says they will burn forever for the confusion. The Quran says Jesus is Messiah, and if Mohammed was a real honest to God prophet then he knew what Messiah means from prophecy: David’s promised King of the World and High Priest like Melchizedek.

Problem is Muslims have been brainwashed against the Bible, even though Quran 3:3 says the Bible is from God, so most don’t even know what Messiah means. They think Christ is just his last name, I guess.
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  1. What group of Muslims do you belong to e.g. Sunni, Shi’a? You seem to have more respect for Jesus than other Muslims, at least the ones on this forum.
  2. Do you believe Jesus is now divine?
  3. Are Mohammed and Jesus equal as prophets, or is Muhammed greater, so to speak? What I mean is that a famous saying in Islam is “There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is His prophet” (or something like that). But now, according to you, Jesus is the Messiah of humanity, and its High Priest, thus isnt he greater than Mohammed?
  4. Do you pray to Jesus? Do you pray to Mohammed?
 
MH84 said:
  1. What group of Muslims do you belong to e.g. Sunni, Shi’a? You seem to have more respect for Jesus than other Muslims, at least the ones on this forum.
  2. Do you believe Jesus is now divine?
  3. Are Mohammed and Jesus equal as prophets, or is Muhammed greater, so to speak? What I mean is that a famous saying in Islam is “There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is His prophet” (or something like that). But now, according to you, Jesus is the Messiah of humanity, and its High Priest, thus isnt he greater than Mohammed?
  4. Do you pray to Jesus? Do you pray to Mohammed?
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I go it alone with Quran, I disagree with most Muslims on a lot of things.

I think Jesus and Mohammed are equal in terms of human mortality that depend on God for everything. Jesus has nothing over on Mohammed in that sense, Jesus still needs to serve God.

If you accept God and Mohammed in Shahada to become a Muslim you are just saying that he is the seal and confirmation of all the prophets from Adam to Jesus, that they are all valid and come from God.

I pray to God and ask Jesus to take my prayers to God, in that way. So I conceptualize God as God, and Jesus as the one who carries out all God’s commands.

I don’t pray to Mohammed, or even my own dead parents, though I think of people in my prayers and hope they are ok.
 
The OP says
If the immaculate conception was disavowed by the Roman Church would Jesus Christ be diminished in your faith?
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Namesake said:
The question is, if Mary wasn’t a virgin would that diminish Jesus in your faith?

Try to stay on topic please.
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Hi

Then the OP needs to be revised by you, which does no convey exactly what has been asked by you now.

Immaculate conception as I understand is sinless conception. Mary, and many more ladies could be sinless, it is quite possible, like mother of Moses , who received revelation from GodAllahYHWH as to what to do with the nowborn child to her.

Mary mother of Jesus and mother of Moses were sinless Prophetesses and their sons innocent ProphtsMessenger of GodAllahYHWH. We should not find fault with them both the mothers, just to prove our points, I think.

Thanks
 
2ndGen said:
Actually, “this” was the question.
And The Immaculate Conception “is” doctrine.
So, I was on topic.
And you were talking about doctrinal change first.
Do you hold double standards for what you can talk about and what responders can?
:confused:
By the way…it’s a loaded question.
Mary’s personal backround has nothing to do with faith in Christ.
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Hi

I quite agree with you contention 2ndGen.

Thanks
 
LilyM said:
Well, it would mean two things:

a) Jesus Christ would have failed in His promises. If the Church founded upon the Apostles, whom He promised to guide into all truth, ended up having dogmatically proclaimed an erroneous teaching, it would make a total mockery of his declaration that ‘who hears you hears me’.

b) Jesus Christ wasn’t really perfect sinless Man. If Mary had the least taint of original sin then, being the sole source of Jesus’ humanity (He had no human father), He would have taken on her sin-nature. She had to be pure just as the Ark of the Covenant had to be made of the purest and finest materials.
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:clapping:
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

Now that is a good question indeed.

I think the Popes have been apologizing for the wrongs done by the Church in the earlier past, and that is a good thing to do, so nothing bars the reversals as such.

Well that is my opinion only, other could differ with me with reason.

Thanks
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Yes, the Popes have shown great humiliation on behalf of Christianity as a whole (at least who allow The Pope to speak for them) in apologizing for the wrongs of The Church.

Has an official doctrinal teaching of The Church ever been however retracted?

I know some have been evolved when more revelation has come to light on the teaching, but to my knowledge, no one has ever produced any evidence that The Church has ever been wrong on matters of doctrine.

I was just wondering if anyone who was anti-Catholic had any legitimate reason to be so.

🙂
 
paarsurrey said:
Hi

Every child who is born to a mother under prophetic visitaion of an Angel, a sign of being immaculate, must be respected by the people.

We Muslims believe that Mary was visited by an Angel who informed her of birth of a son who would become a ProphetMessenger for the nation of Israel, without being toched by a human being. That is why we respect Mary and Jesus, and we love both of them.

Thanks
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:clapping:
 
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