If it wasn't true

[2ndGen]

Oh, that isn’t true at all. No double standard, no loaded question.

It’s straight forward.

If Mary wasn’t a virgin would that have any affect at all on your faith in Jesus as the Son of God and the Savior of mankind?

Pretty simple question.

Pretty simply…no one gets their faith from any church, from any book, from any prophet.

Man receives faith by the grace of God.

If your heart is open to Him,
He will bless you with His grace.

And what God gives you,
no man can take back.

 

[MH84]

Immaculate conception as I understand is sinless conception. Mary, and many more ladies could be sinless, it is quite possible, like mother of Moses , who received revelation from GodAllahYHWH as to what to do with the nowborn child to her.

Mary mother of Jesus and mother of Moses were sinless Prophetesses and their sons innocent ProphtsMessenger of GodAllahYHWH. We should not find fault with them both the mothers, just to prove our points, I think.

Thanks

I don’t think thats right. Mary was the only sinless person besides Jesus. Moses and his mother were sinners like you and me.

 

[paarsurrey]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Namesake
But, the question remains. If Mary was shown to be defiled before the birth of Jesus, would that have any affect of the faith?

Well you see things through different eyes and filters then I. So no matter how I would respond to your what if… It would not be good enough for you. I just happen to believe that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus and given to Peter (Simon) to sheppard. That not even the gates of hell would prevail. That being said…you view this as arrogance on my part. But I do not see it that way. I see it as humbly submitting to the authority that Christ gave his Church. I do not have to continually try and reinvent the wheel. Or try and squeeze out new meaning (proof texting) from the bible. This was all settled 2000 years ago. All I have to do is live out my faith. And continue to grow in that faith to become more Christlike each day.

Hi

We have to understand as to why we must go after a supposition that if she had been defiled. She was a marvelous lady who was visited by angels, she was a favorite of GodAllahYHWH, that is why she had the honor of having conversation with GodAllahYHWH. We should not thing on these lines of supposition of her being defiled.

She was a lady Like Moses’ mother who also had the honor and belief in GodAllahYHWH that He saved her son from the cruel murder by Pharaoh. GodAllahYHWH revealed His word on her as to what she was to do to save her son, and what she did was not a small task to be done by a mother, but she believed in GodAllahYHWH so she did what she did. Both ladies were immaculate Prophetesses of GodAllahYHWH, though this name was not given to both of them, nevertheless both received word from GodAllahYHWH, and both were mothers of great ProphetsMessengers of GodAllahYHWH, peace be upon them all.

If Jesus as is understood delegated some powers to some persons, that powers were to be used judiciously and with a caution, and if such persons did make some mistakes naturally Jesus was not responsible for that. Persons are human beings they could make mistakes which if later realized they could make amends for as much as the mistake is, no body would feel bad for that, I think.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

If Mary wasn’t a virgin would that have any affect at all on your faith in Jesus as the Son of God and the Savior of mankind?

Hi

Well Mary was not touched or defiled by a human being, I am sure of that from Quran, so I won’t indulge into any speculation about her. I love her. Her Son Jesus was a ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH, His ChosenOne, His LovedOne; his status in that sense remains intact.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Ok here goes…you won’t like the answer…Would not happen. This has already been settled by the Holy Spirit working through his Church…I can move on and again just live out my faith.

Hi

Friend Stephen, have you any personal experience with the Holy Spirit?
If you have; Would you like to share it with us? No compulsion,

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

I really hope that you’re joking. That’s textbook occultism.

Hi

Oh yes, he (2ndGen) is certainly a cheerful person. I enjoyed his post.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

It’s an interesting question and I know what you’re getting at. No catholic is going to answer that question because for them it is an impossibility. I got into an argument with a felloow catholic about ectopic pregnancy and it finally came out that the church cannot change its position because the “fabric of belief would crumble”. As if her faith in Christ would collapse if the church revised its position concerning that issue.
As a catholic my faith was always troubled when the pope revised this doctrine or made that statement. Always hoping that he wouldn’t come out tommorow and change a dogma so my faith in Christ wouldn’t collapse. It was very exhausting trying to harmonize the positions of different popes and justifying to myself the different difficulties in catholic belief.
I know I’m going to get pounced by my former brethren. But I just wanted to say that I understand the question.

Hi

Yes, you are right a Catholic would hardly touch this question, being very crucial for them. It is good that you understand the question and that is what matters most to understand one another’s position rather than to misunderstand and get locked in a furious debate.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Why do you want to play this what if game? I really do not understand. I am Catholic! I believe the Catholic Church was the one founded by Christ! I believe the Catholic Church is protected from teaching error on matters faith and morals. From that all things flow…
Peace be with you always!

Hi

I am also not for this “what if game”.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

The three “D’s” are binding upon all Catholics: Dogma, Doctrine and Discipline.

Hi

but not to other 32000plus Christian denominations, they may or may not bind themselves with them, having a free will.

Thanks

 

[Stephen_C]

Hi

Friend Stephen, have you any personal experience with the Holy Spirit?
If you have; Would you like to share it with us? No compulsion,

Thanks

Yes…it was through the Holy Spirit working overtime to humble me and soften my heart enough for me to be still and listen. And only by the grace of God that I was brought back to his Church.

 

[2ndGen]

Hi

Well Mary was not touched or defiled by a human being, I am sure of that from Quran, so I won’t indulge into any speculation about her. I love her. Her Son Jesus was a ProphetMessenger of GodAllahYHWH, His ChosenOne, His LovedOne; his status in that sense remains intact.

Thanks

“Well Mary was not touched or defiled by a human being…”

Catholics, ya’ gotta love that sentiment!

 

[paarsurrey]

So, after all that in my previous two posts, the answer is…
No, dogma cannot be changed. BUT… by the definitions I just found, it would actually be considered a doctrine, so I stand corrected. In theory, I suppose, that means that it could be changed if irrefutable evidence from the Apostles or Jesus himself were found.

Hi

So there is a room for the Protestants to work on to provide " irrefutable evidence from the Apostles or Jesus himself were found" .

Thanks

 

[FAB]

If the immaculate conception was disavowed by the Roman Church would Jesus Christ be diminished in your faith?

The belief of the immaculate conception is that Mary was chosen by God to bear his son our savior and was born without sin.
Would it make any difference to the truth that God became incarnate, walked among us, died for us and rose from the dead to save us from sin, that if He had chosen a less worthy vessel to do so, would it effect my faith, no. It would not change this increadable act of love. You must also remember that God throughout history has chosen less than perfect vessels to follow him and to do His will. Each of us are imperfect, but yet by God’s grace we are given our faith and each are called everyday to continue to do His will.

Peace,
FAB

 

[2ndGen]

Hi

So there is a room for the Protestants to work on to provide " irrefutable evidence from the Apostles or Jesus himself were found" .

Thanks

Peter’s bones…Oh, you said “Protestants?”

Sorry!

Well, if you want ireffutable proof, ask a Catholic!

 

[itsjustdave1988]

So, after all that in my previous two posts, the answer is…

No, dogma cannot be changed.

More precisely, it cannot be “revoked,” which is normally what people mean by “changed.” Dogmas can develop, that is, express the same immutable truth in new ways. They can also be clarified, expounded upon. However, you are correct in that dogmas can never be revoked.

BUT… by the definitions I just found, it would actually be considered a doctrine

The Immaculate Conception of Mary is a de fide dogma, called de fide definita tenenda, which is infallible, irrevocable teaching of the Catholic Church. You were correct the first time.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

The question is, if Mary wasn’t a virgin would that diminish Jesus in your faith?

Try to stay on topic please.

LOL! That wasn’t your question. You are mixing Mary’s virginity with “Immaculate Conception.” Eeeeee…gadddds.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Namesake
The question is, if Mary wasn’t a virgin would that diminish Jesus in your faith?

Try to stay on topic please.

LOL! That wasn’t your question. You are mixing Mary’s virginity with “Immaculate Conception.” Eeeeee…gadddds.

Since the topic was STARTED by Name, I suppose he should be allowed to define the “truth” of the meaning of “the Immaculate Conception”, don’t you think?

Wouldn’t that be perfectly in keeping with “protestant dogma”?

 

[jmcrae]

Since the topic was STARTED by Name, I suppose he should be allowed to define the “truth” of the meaning of “the Immaculate Conception”, don’t you think?

Wouldn’t that be perfectly in keeping with “protestant dogma”?

See, this is why I find it so difficult to keep up with Protestantism. The meaning of words changes at every turn.

 

[jmcrae]

I dont agree. What about when Jesus touched those He was about to heal? What about when the Roman soldiers and Jewish guards daed to put their hands on Him? From a theological POV, whats the difference between Jesus being in Mary’s womb and Jesus physically touching the skin of someone else?

His Divinity was cloaked in His humanity, by that time - He was in a sense His own Ark of the Covenant (although it was still Mary’s flesh that He was made of: He had no human father), whereas when He was conceived, before or at the moment that He took on flesh, Mary was His Ark of the Covenant.

That’s why she had to be pure (or rather, that it was most fitting that she be pure) - but others with whom Jesus had contact did not need to be.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Since the topic was STARTED by Name, I suppose he should be allowed to define the “truth” of the meaning of “the Immaculate Conception”, don’t you think? Wouldn’t that be perfectly in keeping with “protestant dogma”?

Since it’s a Catholic dogma that he’s asking about, I would hope he would have learned a bit more about what the Catholic Church means by “Immaculate Conception.”

Maybe he can also discern what “dogma” means.

According to Scripture, used in the ecclesial sense:

Acts 16:4 “they delivered them the decrees (Gk dogma) for to keep (Gk phulasso; “to protect, guard, observe”) , that were ordained of the apostoles and elders”

From a Catholic perspective, asking whether a dogma can be declared untrue is about as strange a question as asking: What if the Church revoked the dogma of the 1st century Council of Jerusalem? The reply must be: The Church can’t. She must “protect, guard, observe” all dogmas.