If it wasn't true

[2ndGen]

See, this is why I find it so difficult to keep up with Protestantism. The meaning of words changes at every turn.

Their dictionary would look like this:

book
n.
(scroll down…)

33,000.

Because one could argue that each denomination defines for itself and for it’s member “what” is “their” definition of a word.

 

[sodak]

I find questions like these to be nonsensical. They completely miss the point. Jesus promised that the gates of Hell would not prevail against his Church. We have to have clear, unambiguous teaching of the Truth. The RCC gives us that. We believe that it is guided by the Holy Spirit.

And you want to ask a question based upon a premise that the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit (as we believe) had a major error in Dogma.

Do you realize how offensive and sacreligious such a question is? There’s another link on this forum of a protestant talking about how rude Catholics can be - maybe I should point him to this thread…

Let me pose to you a question that will show you how distasteful this is. Suppose that the latest movies were right - Jesus married Mary Magdelene, didn’t really die on the cross, and they had kids - would you still believe he was God?

Yes, that’s how blasphemeous your question sounds to me.

PS - Never mind - YOU are the one who was talking about Catholics being insensitive. Interesting.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

If the immaculate conception was disavowed by the Roman Church would Jesus Christ be diminished in your faith?

Not in the least ​

I believe the Church because of Jesus Christ - not Jesus Christ & not in Him because of the Church. He guarantees her, not she, Him. If the Church disavowed absolutely everything it believed, that would not change Him at all.

 

[Namesake]

Not in the least ​

I believe the Church because of Jesus Christ - not Jesus Christ & not in Him because of the Church. He guarantees her, not she, Him. If the Church disavowed absolutely everything it believed, that would not change Him at all.

A true Christian at last. The point is that if the RCC tumbled down today there would still be Christ. It is He, not the Catholic church that Christians belong to and worship. Christ alone is enough.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I don’t think you are correct. Dogma can be changed, it just isn’t by tradition.

But, the question remains. If Mary was shown to be defiled before the birth of Jesus, would that have any affect of the faith?

He has five rather dubious women in His Matthean genealogy - why should a sixth be a problem ?​

If His mother had been a prostitute, in accord with the slanderous account of His origin, that could be viewed as theologically significant - it could then (in an “alternative Christianity” that is in fact purely hypothetical) have been interpreted as a sign of His identification with sinners.

But as things in fact are, His identification with sinners has been fully & perfectly & credibly & for ever secured in other ways, that do not imply or include that one. So His mother remains a pure & holy virgin, and is not a restored evil-doer.

IOW - no

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

…The point is that if the RCC tumbled down today there would still be Christ. It is He, not the Catholic church that Christians belong to and worship. Christ alone is enough.

Agreed - but ISTM that Christ is all there is, because everything else is “in Him”. So He does not negate it - He creates, upholds, maintains, beautifies, & vivifies it by His Spirit ​

 

[Freshman88]

A true Christian at last. The point is that if the RCC tumbled down today there would still be Christ. It is He, not the Catholic church that Christians belong to and worship. Christ alone is enough.

One problem though - She won’t for the gates of hades will not prevail - Christ has ensured that Church will stand till the end of days.

Another problem, the faith is unchanging, what was true yesterday is still true today.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

He has five rather dubious women in His Matthean genealogy - why should a sixth be a problem ?​

If His mother had been a prostitute, in accord with the slanderous account of His origin, that could be viewed as theologically significant - it could then (in an “alternative Christianity” that is in fact purely hypothetical) have been interpreted as a sign of His identification with sinners.

But as things in fact are, His identification with sinners has been fully & perfectly & credibly & for ever secured in other ways, that do not imply or include that one. So His mother remains a pure & holy virgin, and is not a restored evil-doer.

IOW - no

Talmud accounts of Jesus being sired by a Roman soldier may arise from Mary’s father being Alexander Helios, son of Antony the Roman General and Cleopatra gone into hiding after their deaths.

Historically, King Herod rampaged against any perceived threat to his throne, and being one who double-crossed Antony with his support of Octavian in order to keep the throne of Judea, may have also been seeking to not only kill the baby King of the Jews, but the great-grandson of Antony who might come back to haunt him.

Therefore, when Jesus was tempted by Satan with all the kingdoms in the world, Jesus may have been the real worldly claimant to the thrones of Egypt and Rome – Pharaoh and Caesar.

King of kings, lord of lords.

Yet Jesus refused Satan and now he is King of all that anyway, and of the whole world, by the power of the promise of God, not by the power of the flesh.

Which Jesus also had as the son of David and Bathsheba who died but was resurrected into Mary, thus fulfilling that promise to David.

 

[sodak]

A true Christian at last. The point is that if the RCC tumbled down today there would still be Christ. It is He, not the Catholic church that Christians belong to and worship. Christ alone is enough.

Wrong on all counts.

 

[paarsurrey]

If anyone dies a physical death they are born with the curse of original sin from Adam. Death is the mark of the curse.

Hi

Since you are a Muslim, kindly prove any original sin which is hereditory from Quran, also kindly prove from Quran that death is a mark of curse.

Thank you

 

[FaithofAbraham]

Hi

Since you are a Muslim, kindly prove any original sin which is hereditory from Quran, also kindly prove from Quran that death is a mark of curse.

Thank you

Quran 3:3 says the Bible is from God, I quoted from the Bible, there you go.

 

[FAB]

Quran 3:3 says the Bible is from God, I quoted from the Bible, there you go.

The Bible is from God, but not written by God. It was written by men through the ispiration of God. As such the human element cannont be eliminated from the equation. Catholic teaching is that the bible is without error in matters of salvation. Through biblical studies and criticisms we know that not everything in the bible happened as it is recorded.
The point is that you cannot say I quoted from the bible and that is final.

Peace,
FAB

 

[2ndGen]

A true Christian at last. The point is that if the RCC tumbled down today there would still be Christ. It is He, not the Catholic church that Christians belong to and worship. Christ alone is enough.

If The Church tumbled down today, that would make Christ a lier.

He said He would be “with” The Church for all time.

You cannot separate The Body of Christ “from” Christ.

The Catholic Church is the fruition of His work…a body of Christians united in word and in deed and in worship to His Father.

What God has done, no man can undo.

 

[2ndGen]

Wrong on all counts.

 

[2ndGen]

If The Church is faulty…throw away your Bible.

You’d be saying that God chose a faulty institution to reveal His Word to and that He didn’t protect the legitimacy of The Church’s authority in revealing His Word by allowing it to fall.

That just makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[inchrist101]

Why do you want to play this what if game? I really do not understand. I am Catholic! I believe the Catholic Church was the one founded by Christ! I believe the Catholic Church is protected from teaching error on matters faith and morals. From that all things flow…

Peace be with you always!

After reading these responses it’s amazing how Catholics and non-Catholics respond.

The basic question is if the Pope decided to say that the immaculate conception was not true does that change your view of Jesus. The answer I believe for any Christian is emphatically NO NO NO. We don’t believe in the immaculate conception because any Pope declared it. We believe it because the Bible states it and the church simply adopted it as part of their belief. It’s part of what defines Christianity. Notice I said only part. I put my faith in what the Bible says not any Pope.

With regard to can the Pope change doctrine the answer is no.

 

[2ndGen]

After reading these responses it’s amazing how Catholics and non-Catholics respond.

The basic question is if the Pope decided to say that the immaculate conception was not true does that change your view of Jesus. The answer I believe for any Christian is emphatically NO NO NO. We don’t believe in the immaculate conception because any Pope declared it. We believe it because the Bible states it and the church simply adopted it as part of their belief. It’s part of what defines Christianity. Notice I said only part. I put my faith in what the Bible says not any Pope.

With regard to can the Pope change doctrine the answer is no.

What if The Bible states that The Pope cannot teach in error, then you’d say that you trust The Pope because The Bible says so, right?

 

[Namesake]

If The Church tumbled down today, that would make Christ a lier.

He said He would be “with” The Church for all time.

You cannot separate The Body of Christ “from” Christ.

The Catholic Church is the fruition of His work…a body of Christians united in word and in deed and in worship to His Father.

What God has done, no man can undo.

What I am coming to understand is that Catholics cannot explore other possibilities. Any idea that gets outside the lines drawn by Rome is rejected precisely because it is outside the lines. That means, at least to me, that there cannot be intellectual curiosity within the Catholic church, which then subsumes that Catholics are not free. I have a little bit of experience with other churches that control the thinking of the members.

 

[FAB]

What I am coming to understand is that Catholics cannot explore other possibilities. Any idea that gets outside the lines drawn by Rome is rejected precisely because it is outside the lines. That means, at least to me, that there cannot be intellectual curiosity within the Catholic church, which then subsumes that Catholics are not free. I have a little bit of experience with other churches that control the thinking of the members.

Namesake:
Your impression is very wrong. The Catholic Church through the bishops, theologians and the people are constantly looking and reviewing it’s teachings. Of all church’s the Catholic encourges the exploration of the faith and we are very free to think for ourselves.
There are centain dogmas, such as those on Mary, that are the foundations of the faith. These teachings, as we believe, were developed through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, often in response to the type of questions on this thread.
Often with questions like this on Mary, I think people are attempting to put their own human understanding of life above that of God. Is it possible for a person to be born without sin(Immaculate Concemption) as with Mary, yes, all things are possible with God. Is it possible for Mary to have remained a virgin, yes, God would have given her the graces to do so. This is a very simple explaination to a belief in which volumns have been written.
I think the original question is a gocha type of question. If this isn’t true, then how can you possibly believe the rest of your faith. Our faith though, at least mine, is not based just on one doctrine or dogma. It is based on the life, death and resurrection of Christ.
Peace,
FAB

 

[2ndGen]

What I am coming to understand is that Catholics cannot explore other possibilities. Any idea that gets outside the lines drawn by Rome is rejected precisely because it is outside the lines.