If It's Good For One, Then Why Not The Other?

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Preventative war is not a just war…ever…period…

I have not seen any evidence yet of these Mass Weapons of Destruction…all I have seen is destruction.

The Holy See opposes this war therefore I oppose this war, you cannot provide evidence that this war is just, if you could the Holy See would condone it, the Holy See does not condone it, you are either Catholic or you are not. You are Catholic regardless of the country you live in.

Pope John Paul II said ‘all war is a failure’

God bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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springbreeze:
The Holy See opposes this war therefore I oppose this war,
Not now. Now, the Holy See now wants us to stay and bring peace to Iraq.
 
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JW10631:
The Catechism and the Just War Theory should be updated
From Charley Reese, who apparently understands Catholicism better than many Catholics:

“There is no need for the church to “catch up with the 21st century,” as one person put it. Christianity is not a 21st-century religion. If you are a Christian, your choice is to obey the teachings of Jesus and his apostles. You don’t get to vote on them or pick some and reject others. And, if you are a Roman Catholic, you don’t get to set church doctrine, which is presumably based on those teachings. The Roman Catholic Church defines itself, and it is not defined by dissident priests or nuns or disgruntled lay members.”

lewrockwell.com/reese/reese185.html
 
Elaine's Cross:
From Charley Reese, who apparently understands Catholicism better than many Catholics
???

Anyway, the Vatican is now in favor of us staying and bringing peace to Iraq. Are you? You haven’t made that clear if you are.
 
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gilliam:
Not now. Now, the Holy See now wants us to stay and bring peace to Iraq.
Dear friend

No the Holy See opposes this war and always has done

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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springbreeze:
Dear friend

No the Holy See opposes this war and always has done

God Bless you and much love and peace to you
Teresa,

Your misinformed here. See:
*Senior Vatican officials have decided to put aside their differences with Tony Blair over the war in Iraq, calling for multinational troop reinforcements to secure the country’s fledgling democracy. *

*Now, in light of the post-war chaos, Cardinal Sodano has announced a newly hawkish line on Iraq from Rome. “The child has been born,” he declared recently on behalf of the Vatican. “It may be illegitimate, but it’s here, and it must be reared and educated.”

Despite the Vatican’s vociferous opposition to the war, the bloody terrorist attacks and the continuing insurgency have convinced the Pope that only an increased military presence, including Nato troops, can secure peace.

“There is a feeling that there really is no going back,” said a Vatican adviser.


*telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/10/10/wirq10.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/10/10/ixportal.html

Here is another source:
Has the Vatican changed its mind about the war in Iraq? “It’s not that the Vatican position has changed, but the situation in Iraq has been completely transformed,” said one Vatican official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. “The Vatican clearly said ‘no’ to the war. But at a certain point, you have to manage the situation that has been created in the way that does the least damage,” he said. “If the military pulls out of Iraq now, the country would fall into chaos. The vase has been broken, and we have to try to find a way to mend it. Of course, there is the problem that the more deeply one becomes involved in this project, the greater the tendency to justify that involvement,” he said.

americamagazine.org/gettext.cfm?articleTypeID=1&textID=3350&issueID=465

pax
 
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gilliam:
Teresa,

Your misinformed here. See:
*Senior Vatican officials have decided to put aside their differences with Tony Blair over the war in Iraq, calling for multinational troop reinforcements to secure the country’s fledgling democracy. *

Now, in light of the post-war chaos, Cardinal Sodano has announced a newly hawkish line on Iraq from Rome. “The child has been born,” he declared recently on behalf of the Vatican. "It may be illegitimate, but it’s here, and it must be reared and educated."

Despite the Vatican’s vociferous opposition to the war, the bloody terrorist attacks and the continuing insurgency have convinced the Pope that only an increased military presence, including Nato troops, can secure peace.

“There is a feeling that there really is no going back,” said a Vatican adviser.


telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/10/10/wirq10.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/10/10/ixportal.html

Here is another source:
Has the Vatican changed its mind about the war in Iraq? “It’s not that the Vatican position has changed, but the situation in Iraq has been completely transformed,” said one Vatican official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. “The Vatican clearly said ‘no’ to the war. But at a certain point, you have to manage the situation that has been created in the way that does the least damage,” he said. “If the military pulls out of Iraq now, the country would fall into chaos. The vase has been broken, and we have to try to find a way to mend it. Of course, there is the problem that the more deeply one becomes involved in this project, the greater the tendency to justify that involvement,” he said.

americamagazine.org/gettext.cfm?articleTypeID=1&textID=3350&issueID=465

pax
Dear friend

All this says is you made the mess then you stay and sort it out…the Holy See likes none of it but seeing as you made the war, you stay and make a peaceful state…that’s all it amounts to

How can you say it is otherwise, you made a war against the will of God the least you can do is stay and put it straight

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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gilliam:
Where in our Catechism does it say they should desert? Doesn’t really matter anyway, because both the Holy Father and the Vatican are now in favor of us saying in Iraq until the job is done, so your litmas test is false.
I agree–no desertion is allowed. If you are assigned to work in a concentration camp killing Jews or as an American police man assigned to make sure Terry Shavo doesn’t get any water…either way you should always obey your orders. If the government assigns you to do something…IT MUST BE DONE.

At least the “neocons” are consistent :rolleyes:
 
New Pope a Strong Critic
of Modern War

By Michael Griffin
Catholic Peace Fellowship


The election of Benedict XVI brings hope for the continuation of peacemaking as central to the papacy. Just as John Paul II cried out again and again to the world, “War never again!” the new pope has taken the name of the one who first made that cry, Benedict XV, commonly known as “the peace pope.”

The name is no coincidence. In fact, Cardinal Justin Rigali, Archbishop of Philadelphia said Tuesday that the new pope told the cardinals he was selecting Benedict because “he is desirous to continue the efforts of Benedict XV on behalf of peace … throughout the world.”

As a Cardinal, the new pope was a staunch critic of the U.S. led invasion of Iraq. On one occasion before the war, he was asked whether it would be just. “Certainly not,” he said, and explained that the situation led him to conclude that “the damage would be greater than the values one hopes to save.”“All I can do is invite you to read the Catechism, and the conclusion seems obvious to me…” The conclusion was one he gave many times: “the concept of preventive war does not appear in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.” Even after the war, Ratzinger did not cease criticism of U.S. violence and imperialism: “it was right to resist the war and its threats of destruction…It should never be the responsibility of just one nation to make decisions for the world.”

Yet perhaps the most important insight of Ratzinger came during a press conference on May 2, 2003. After suggesting that perhaps it would be necessary to revise the Catechism section on just war (perhaps because it had been used by George Weigel and others to endorse a war that the Church opposed), Ratzinger offered a deep insight that included but went beyond the issue of war Iraq:“There were not sufficient reasons to unleash a war against Iraq. To say nothing of the fact that, given the new weapons that make possible destructions that go beyond the combatant groups, today we should be asking ourselves if it is still licit to admit the very existence of a ‘just war’.”

Along with his actual criticism of modern war, we take heart in the theological principle behind such criticism. While many Catholics, most notably Weigel, have advocated deference to the heads of state in determining issues such as war and peace, the new pope has consistently taught that the Church “cannot simply retreat into the private sphere.”

He is skeptical of the view that politics can be done without reference to the Gospel. Appeals to neutral language that does not refer to religion—popular as they are among many neo-conservative Catholics—forget some the “hard sayings” of Jesus that don’t seem quite “rational” enough for public discourse. Sayings like “Love your enemies” and “turn the other cheek” and “put away the sword,” these are dismissed as impractical at best, sectarian at worst.

Not by our new pope…He signals an invigorated contiuance of the Church speaking the truth to power. In a talk on “Church, Ecumenism, and Politics,” he insisted that “The Church must make claims and demands on public law…Where the Church itself becomes the state freedom becomes lost. But also when the Church is done away with as a public and publicly relevant authority, then too freedom is extinguished, because there the state once again claims completely for itself the jurisdiction of morality.”

He follows his namesake in refusing to let the Gospel become irrelevant to politics. Elected directly after the outbreak of World War I, Benedict XV sent a representative to each country to press for peace. On August 1, 1917, he delivered the Plea for Peace, which demanded a cessation of hostilities, a reduction of armaments, a guaranteed freedom of the seas, and international arbitration.

Interstingly, on August 15, 1917, the Vatican sent a note to James Cardinal Gibbons, leader of the Church in the U.S. The request was that Gibbons and the U.S. Church “exert influence” with President Wison to endorse the papal peace plan to end the war. Cardinal Gibbons never contacted Wilson. (Nor does he seem to have lobbied on behalf of Benedict XV’s call for a boycott on any nation that had obligatory military conscription.) On August 27, President Wilson formally rejected the plan.
 
But Gibbons and the U.S. Catholic archbishops were not about to reject Wilson’s war plans. They had promised the president “truest patriotic fervor and zeal” as well as manpower: “our people, as ever, will rise as one man to serve the nation” and exhorted young men to “be Americans always.” Cardinal Gibbons had even written when war was declared that “the duty of a citizen” is “absolute and unreserved obedience to his country’s call.”

Such unreserved obedience was not endorsed by Benedict XV, nor is it by Benedict XVI. This was perhaps what upset U.S. neoconservatives most, that John Paul II and Cardinal Ratzinger did not show more deference to the state. Perhaps because of their own experience with violent regimes, they seemed to grasp the biblical axiom from the Acts of the Apostles: “we must obey God rather than men.” (Acts 5:29)

Such a decision not to obey men nearly cost the young Jospeh Ratzinger his life. In 1945 he made the decision to desert his post in the German army. When he was spotted and stopped by SS troops, he could have been shot on the spot. They did not kill him, using his wound (his arm was in a sling) as the excuse. In his memoir, Milestones, Ratzinger offers the deeper reason for his escape from death. Those soldiers, he wrote, “had enough of war and did not want to become murderers,” Our world, Pope Benedict XVI knows well, has had enough of war. We join the chorus of hopes that his ministry as pope will help put an end to war and hasten along God’s kingdom of peace.
 
gilliam said:
???

the Vatican is now in favor of us staying and bringing peace to Iraq.

That’s called the “if you break it, you buy it” princible

THE POPE IS NOT A “NEO-CON” !!!
 
Elaine's Cross:
gilliam said:
"It may be illegitimate"
/QUOTE]

'nuff said.

Illegitimate or not, the Vatican and the Holy Father wants us to stay and see it through. For the sake of the Iraqis. As a good Catholic, you should to be supportive of these efforts they are in line with the wishes of the Holy See and with the Catechism.
 
liberal friend:
I agree–no desertion is allowed. If you are assigned to work in a concentration camp killing Jews or as an American police man assigned to make sure Terry Shavo doesn’t get any water…either way you should always obey your orders. If the government assigns you to do something…IT MUST BE DONE.

At least the “neocons” are consistent :rolleyes:
Dear friend

What ???

Am I seeing what I am seeing?

You have to be kidding me?

Obey orders that go directly against God’s Law?

Well you do as you see fit, but I will not be joining you in that sin against humanity and against God.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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springbreeze:
Dear friend

Get lost!

No Christian principle sells this kind of hatred.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
Teresa,
I am posting quotes from the Vatican, what more do you want? And helping the Iraqis now get peace and restore their infrastructure is not in any way shape or form hatred.
 
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gilliam:
That’s not a neo-con principle, that is a Christian principle. You need to read:

telegraph.co.uk/news/mai…0/ixportal.html

and

americamagazine.org/gett…350&issueID=465
You are correct. There is a rich Christian history, going back to Chrust Himself, that advocates invading undemocratic countries and installing puppet governments that will let the oil flow more freely.

Like Christ himself said, “We must invade Rome, depose Caesar, and install Holy Democracy across the Empire…uh…Republic.”

Violence in the name of oil, er…freedom…is no vice." --The Gospel according to Gillam
 
liberal friend:
You are correct. There is a rich Christian history, going back to Chrust Himself, that advocates invading undemocratic countries and installing puppet governments that will let the oil flow more freely.

Like Christ himself said, “We must invade Rome, depose Caesar, and install Holy Democracy across the Empire…uh…Republic.”

Violence in the name of oil, er…freedom…is no vice." --The Gospel according to Gillam
Again, I am quoting the Vatican that we should be supportive in this effort to get the Iraqis back on their feet. Do you have a problem with the Vatican on this? Again, see:

telegraph.co.uk/news/mai…0/ixportal.html

and

americamagazine.org/gett…350&issueID=465

Every Christian and every Catholic should be supportive of this effort, it is really the only Christian position on the issue.
 
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gilliam:
Teresa,
I am posting quotes from the Vatican, what more do you want? And helping the Iraqis now get peace and restore their infrastructure is not in any way shape or form hatred.
It is nothing more than you broke the peace now you must maintain it, you war monger now you must bring peace and right the wrong. The Vatican never approved it . You did it now you make it good, that is what the Vatican says, The Vatican has never approved of this war but seeing as you did it now you stay and make it right, that is all they are saying… war begets war, you are so whatever you are… you don’t even read it correct anymore.

You make a war for no reason now you have to make it right…the Vatican does not approve and never has, it is simply passing comment that you should make it right the war mongering nation that you are…I hate the UK’s involvement in this.
 
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