If Jesus told you He was a pencil...

[CalmDownWisWins]

If Jesus came to you and told you that He was a pencil when it (the Pencil) was consecrated by an ordained Pastor…would you believe Him and accept that the Consecrated Pencil is Him?

After Jesus ascended to heaven, he authorized an authority to be His singular and true source of verification and understanding of things from Him.

As St. Paul said, if even an angel from heaven contradicted what has been told to you as the truth, you are not to believe him.

Jesus will return to us ONLY at His final return, and any “thing” that claimed to be “Him” would not be Him.

So, to refute your nonsense specifically:

If Jesus came to you…
He wouldn’t.

…and told you that He was a pencil when it (the Pencil) was consecrated by an ordained Pastor…
He wouldn’t be the one speaking. He wouldn’t choose a “pencil”. A PRIEST (which I imagine what you mean by an “ordained pastor”) cannot consecrate a pencil.

…would you believe Him…
He’s not there to believe.

…and accept that the Consecrated Pencil is Him?
I’m not to believe anyone in matters like this other than those authorized by God. They would not do this. There is no possibility of consecrating a pencil, so that pencil could not be God.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

Suppose Abraham, when asked to sacrifice his son, didn’t believe it was God asking for such a cruel sacrifice. I mean, it seems like an ungodly request. Imagine if Abraham said something like “No, you’re not God - you’re just the devil in disguise.”

But Abraham didn’t say that. Abraham was able to recognise God.

This is a good thread. It makes people wonder if they can recognise God.

 

[2ndGen]

Suppose Abraham, when asked to sacrifice his son, didn’t believe it was God asking for such a cruel sacrifice. I mean, it seems like an ungodly request. Imagine if Abraham said something like “No, you’re not God - you’re just the devil in disguise.”

But Abraham didn’t say that. Abraham was able to recognise God.

This is a good thread. It makes people wonder if they can recognise God.

 

[2ndGen]

INDENT]
I’m not to believe anyone in matters like this other than those authorized by God. They would not do this. There is no possibility of consecrating a pencil, so that pencil could not be God.

In essence, “Jesus” isn’t enough to believe? You need all Three Persons of The Holy Trinity to confirm what Jesus says?

And you place limits on “what” Jesus can consecrate?

I would say that since everything came into creation “through” Jesus, He could consecrate whatever He wants to.

Ok, you’re one of those that insists on proof…no, wait, you just wouldn’t believe Jesus at all because you judge Who is Jesus by what is in a book.

Meanwhile, you ignore the fact that Jesus could change His mind and out of the blue just come down and choose to be a consecrate an object (such as a pencil, a car tire, wine, a piece of bread, etc…).

If you insist on being a Bible literalist (accepting only what The Bible says), then you’re going to have to ignore everything revealed by The Saints (Rosaries, Sacred Hearts, etc…).

If Jesus came down to us, I would undoubtedly do whatever He asked with “faith”, not basing my obedience on whether or not He met the criteria set forth in a book.

 

[Joyful_1]

In essence, “Jesus” isn’t enough to believe? You need all Three Persons of The Holy Trinity to confirm what Jesus says?

And you place limits on “what” Jesus can consecrate?

I would say that since everything came into creation “through” Jesus, He could consecrate whatever He wants to.

Ok, you’re one of those that insists on proof…no, wait, you just wouldn’t believe Jesus at all because you judge Who is Jesus by what is in a book.

Meanwhile, you ignore the fact that Jesus could change His mind and out of the blue just come down and choose to be a consecrate an object (such as a pencil, a car tire, wine, a piece of bread, etc…).

If you insist on being a Bible literalist (accepting only what The Bible says), then you’re going to have to ignore everything revealed by The Saints (Rosaries, Sacred Hearts, etc…).

If Jesus came down to us, I would undoubtedly do whatever He asked with “faith”, not basing my obedience on whether or not He met the criteria set forth in a book.

[sign]Amen, Brother!![/sign]

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Quote:
Originally Posted by CalmDownWisWins
INDENT]
I’m not to believe anyone in matters like this other than those authorized by God. They would not do this. There is no possibility of consecrating a pencil, so that pencil could not be God.

In essence, “Jesus” isn’t enough to believe? You need all Three Persons of The Holy Trinity to confirm what Jesus says?

God is one, in the Holy Trinity, and to have one is to have all.

To believe God is to believe God. Jesus is God. To believe Jesus is to believe God. How could another person of God differ in “opinon” from Jesus?

And you place limits on “what” Jesus can consecrate?

Jesus places limits on what is proper to Him. Since Jesus would not do this, it won’t be done. “Pencils” are improper material for “consecrated host”.

I would say that since everything came into creation “through” Jesus, He could consecrate whatever He wants to.

Why, based on the deposit of faith of our tradition, would consecration of pencils be “a good idea”?

Ok, you’re one of those that insists on proof…no, wait, you just wouldn’t believe Jesus at all because you judge Who is Jesus by what is in a book.

I’m not non-Catholic, so I believe what the Magisterium tells me is believable, and the teaching of the Church is that Jesus simply would not do as you suggest is possible. That makes your “scenario” an impossibility. Therefore your scenario is on the face of it an absurdity.

Meanwhile, you ignore the fact that Jesus could change His mind and out of the blue just come down and choose to be a consecrate an object (such as a pencil, a car tire, wine, a piece of bread, etc…).

If He wanted priests to consecrate other than the host to be His Body and Blood, then He’d tell us that through the Magisterium.

I’ll leave it up to them to promulgate that “truth” when they do, as it’s not my job to do that, but I haven’t been shown any “hints” that things other than what is presently consecrated to be the real presence of Jesus will ever be so.

Should the Magisterium tell us that your wacky scenario is a possibility, I’ll of course go along with them.

If you insist on being a Bible literalist (accepting only what The Bible says), then you’re going to have to ignore everything revealed by The Saints (Rosaries, Sacred Hearts, etc…).

I’m CERTAINLY not a bible-literalistic-ist, and I accept as true all that the Magisterium says we must accept.

If Jesus came down to us, I would undoubtedly do whatever He asked with “faith”, not basing my obedience on whether or not He met the criteria set forth in a book.

If Jesus “came down to us” it would be “time to get out of the pool!”

You MUST get confirmation that the “thing” that you identify as “Jesus” is really Jesus, and you can only get that confirmation from the Church, via the Magisterium.

YOUR private revelation is NOT to be taken as truth without verification by the Church, and if you do so, then you are the “Pope” of your own “church”.

 

[Syele]

So what do you make of people who say God came down and told them to murder someone?

What if YOU saw Jesus and HEARD Him say it audibly?

Do you question thier or your descernment, not believeing God would ask for such a cruel thing?

Do you admire thise who act on it for having great faith? Do you question your sanity or obey on the spot if it’s you?

Do you encourage everyone to do as God says, because He appeared as Jesus?

Do you give up and call a priest to tell you if it’s true? What if a priest doesn’t know, after all he wasn’t there?

There is not enough information in my scenario OR the pencil one to answer all these questions.

We are to test all spirits. Remember Moses? Every “sign” he showed the Pharaoh from God was matched by “magicians.” Satan can put on a good show - Can even say he is Jesus himself.

If Jesus showed up and claimed He was a pencil, I’d be asking LOTS of questions!

Would I use scripture to guide my decesion making about if I believed it was Jesus? You bet I’d base it on what is in a book!

God didn’t give up scripture for nothing. I’d sure hate to have to explain to God at Judgement why I blindly followed a demon claiming God was a Pencil and failed to test the spirits.

 

[rinnie]

Ok is this a trick question. First of all If Jesus told me anything i would believe it. But are you asking me if he told you that and would i believe you. I would have to say you may have to take a little trip. nice little vacation. But if it was Jesus yes.

 

[Singinbeauty]

If Jesus came back down to this earth and told me straight that He was a pencil you are darn tootin’ I would believe that He was a pencil. I may look quizically at Him at first because it would go against everything that the bible indicates of Him (Him being fully man and fully God and all - not a pencil) but convinced that it is Him standing in front of me saying it, I would accept it.

Trouble becomes when you have to believe men to tell you what they think Christ meant when He said what He said. Especially when it would contradict everything in the culture of that time, eating human flesh was not looked on too kindly back then and now.

It comes down to the whole ‘telephone game’ thing. It starts from one mouth and when passed down through imperfect humans the message gets distorted…

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

If Jesus came to you and told you that He was a pencil when it (the Pencil) was consecrated by an ordained Pastor…would you believe Him and accept that the Consecrated Pencil is Him?

That’s an impossible hypothesis, because it is void for the same reason as the objection that God cannot be almighty since He cannot lift an unliftable weight. The reason being, that the terms in which the question is asked are unintelligible as Christian theology. God is God, not a mould into which we can pour any nonsense our minds conceive of & from which we can then draw intelligible propositions.​

“zqsWWbuioBNH 43457GFTDSXeeekmT” does not make sense - not even if it were to be preceded by the words “God can…”. “God can…” is not a charm that turns unintelligible nonsense into intelligible & coherent sense - however grammatically & syntactically correct. Quite apart from the prospect of the use of the grace of the sacrament of Ordination to consecrate a pencil (!). That would be as ineffective as ordaining a teddy bear to the episcopate…

He is not going to; so questions dependent on such an impossible contingency can arise only as empty hypotheses

 

[Al_Masetti]

That’s an impossible hypothesis, because it is void for the same reason as the objection that God cannot be almighty since He cannot lift an unliftable weight. The reason being, that the terms in which the question is asked are unintelligible as Christian theology. God is God, not a mould into which we can pour any nonsense our minds conceive of & from which we can then draw intelligible propositions.​

“zqsWWbuioBNH 43457GFTDSXeeekmT” does not make sense - not even if it were to be preceded by the words “God can…”. “God can…” is not a charm that turns unintelligible nonsense into intelligible & coherent sense - however grammatically & syntactically correct.

It’s not going to happen, so questions dependent on such an impossible contingency can arise only as empty hypotheses

On one hand, such a construct might be considered to be a “vain supposition”.

On the other hand, God is Infinite in every way … and yet … He died on the cross. How can God die? And yet He did.

Can God make a rock so big He can’t lift it??? I dunno.

Can God square a circle?? I dunno that either.

[but … maybe]

[wouldn’t you be so totally blown away if someday you saw God square a circle or show up with a rock too big to lift … ]

[we humans labor under such terrible intellectual limitations … and meanwhile, there is God … Infinite in every way … He may be able to figure something out. But if you did witness some such thing, you would be unable to describe it to anyone. You could only remember it in your mind. With clarity.]

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

On one hand, such a construct might be considered to be a “vain supposition”.

On the other hand, God is Infinite in every way … and yet … He died on the cross. How can God die? And yet He did.

He did die - but: not in virtue of His Deity. To die, God assumed a human nature, as a man. (I know that’s badly stated ) So God “was able” to do what even we can do: undergo the limitation we know as death.​

Strictly speaking, to die is a limitation, not an ability. Since man cannot fly on wings as birds do, an Incarnation of that sort is fine for a fantasy world in which man can fly like that - but in the actual world of men, it is just that; fantasy: like unicorns, talking trees, & giants in seven-league boots or cloaks of invisibility Which might well be intelligible beings in some world or worlds - but not in “our” world, the “Primary World” (as contrasted with the “Secondary World” of the imagination).

Christianity is a bizarre religion, true - but it’s not bizarre in every imaginable respect. The “living stones” may be living; but they are at least for building with, & not for bathing in.

Can God make a rock so big He can’t lift it??? I dunno.

Can God square a circle?? I dunno that either.

[but … maybe]

[wouldn’t you be so totally blown away if someday you saw God square a circle or show up with a rock too big to lift … ]

I wouldn’t believe it - the power to do to something that which contradicts its nature, would annul it, not add to it. Shapes can be circular - but no circular shape can in the very same sense be square. One could always have a a circular shape with a board at either end or both on which one drew a square: but the object would not be square & circular in identical senses.​

If geometry were unaffected by a Divine making (creating ?) of a square as a circle, there would be fewer problems than otherwise. Even so, this act would have consequences for the rest of mathematics - & so for the entire universe. We would have to live in a different *sort *of universe for such circle-squaring to talke place. Everything really is connected - St. Paul knew that, centuries before chaos theory got there

[we humans labor under such terrible intellectual limitations …

That’s a fact ​

and meanwhile, there is God … Infinite in every way … He may be able to figure something out. But if you did witness some such thing, you would be unable to describe it to anyone. You could only remember it in your mind. With clarity.]

[/quote]

 

[2ndGen]

If Jesus came back down to this earth and told me straight that He was a pencil you are darn tootin’ I would believe that He was a pencil. I may look quizically at Him at first because it would go against everything that the bible indicates of Him (Him being fully man and fully God and all - not a pencil) but convinced that it is Him standing in front of me saying it, I would accept it.

Trouble becomes when you have to believe men to tell you what they think Christ meant when He said what He said. Especially when it would contradict everything in the culture of that time, eating human flesh was not looked on too kindly back then and now.

It comes down to the whole ‘telephone game’ thing. It starts from one mouth and when passed down through imperfect humans the message gets distorted…

:clapping: :bowdown: :clapping: :bowdown: :clapping:

 

[2ndGen]

Ok is this a trick question. First of all If Jesus told me anything i would believe it. But are you asking me if he told you that and would i believe you. I would have to say you may have to take a little trip. nice little vacation. But if it was Jesus yes.

No…if it was literaly “Jesus Christ”, the only begotten Son of God (The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Moses).

 

[2ndGen]

[sign]Amen, Brother!![/sign]

 

[2ndGen]

So what do you make of people who say God came down and told them to murder someone?

What if YOU saw Jesus and HEARD Him say it audibly?

Do you question thier or your descernment, not believeing God would ask for such a cruel thing?

Do you admire thise who act on it for having great faith? Do you question your sanity or obey on the spot if it’s you?

Do you encourage everyone to do as God says, because He appeared as Jesus?

Do you give up and call a priest to tell you if it’s true? What if a priest doesn’t know, after all he wasn’t there?

There is not enough information in my scenario OR the pencil one to answer all these questions.

We are to test all spirits. Remember Moses? Every “sign” he showed the Pharaoh from God was matched by “magicians.” Satan can put on a good show - Can even say he is Jesus himself.

If Jesus showed up and claimed He was a pencil, I’d be asking LOTS of questions!

Would I use scripture to guide my decesion making about if I believed it was Jesus? You bet I’d base it on what is in a book!

God didn’t give up scripture for nothing. I’d sure hate to have to explain to God at Judgement why I blindly followed a demon claiming God was a Pencil and failed to test the spirits.

In other words, you need proof “before” you believe.

Not me…if Jesus (not a spirit pretending to be Jesus as I’ve stated in the OP) told me He was a pencil, I wouldn’t dare test Him. He’s Jesus. I already know that by the statement made in my OP

There is no getting around this.

People who can’t accept Jesus’ teachings without proof are the only ones saying “what if it was Satan!” because they just cannot bring themselves to believe that Jesus could be a pencil if He wanted too (just like The Pharisees and those disciples that walked away from Him when He began to say things that they couldn’t accept). The difference today?

This is “post-ressurection”.

“It” is accomplished.

If He can rise from the dead,
if all things (including pencils) came into being through Him,
then hay, “if” Jesus said He was a pencil,
I wouldn’t even care if He was a #2 pencil or not.

I’d just believe Him.

The question never was “what if some spirit pretending to be Jesus…”.

The question “is”…“If JESUS told you He was a pencil…”.

This thread is has really turned out to be a very productve thread for me personally.​

Don’t get me wrong, I thoroughly as a Christian appreciate & love your need for proof “if” you couldn’t tell that it was Jesus, but again, in this instance, it’s clear that it’s Jesus.

I once asked God for proof of Who it was that was saving me when I was being delivered from a very trying time with complete confidence that everything was going to be alright.

I got a undeniable sign that it was Jesus when I fell asleep praying with tears (of joy) in my eyes. I woke up in the position of the crucified Christ, arms extended out, hands curled in, one leg crossed over the other.

 

[Syele]

In other words, you need proof “before” you believe.

Not me…if Jesus (not a spirit pretending to be Jesus as I’ve stated in the OP) told me He was a pencil, I wouldn’t dare test Him. He’s Jesus. I already know that by the statement made in my OP

There is no getting around this.

People who can’t accept Jesus’ teachings without proof are the only ones saying “what if it was Satan!” because they just cannot bring themselves to believe that Jesus could be a pencil if He wanted too (just like The Pharisees and those disciples that walked away from Him when He began to say things that they couldn’t accept). The difference today?

This is “post-ressurection”.

“It” is accomplished.

If He can rise from the dead,
if all things (including pencils) came into being through Him,
then hay, “if” Jesus said He was a pencil,
I wouldn’t even care if He was a #2 pencil or not.

I’d just believe Him.

The question never was “what if some spirit pretending to be Jesus…”.

The question “is”…“If JESUS told you He was a pencil…”.

This thread is has really turned out to be a very productve thread for me personally.

I missed that it was really Jesus. my “Proof” is only that it’s actually Jesus talking. there is a deciever out there. If I was sure it was Jesus, OF course I wouldn’t hesitate.

PS. can you not make triple and quad posts all teh time… it’s kinda rude.

 

[2ndGen]

God is one, in the Holy Trinity, and to have one is to have all.

 

[2ndGen]

I missed that it was really Jesus. my “Proof” is only that it’s actually Jesus talking. there is a deciever out there. If I was sure it was Jesus, OF course I wouldn’t hesitate.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

CalmDownWisWins;3284787:

Quote:
God is one, in the Holy Trinity, and to have one is to have all.

To believe God is to believe God. Jesus is God. To believe Jesus is to believe God. How could another person of God differ in “opinon” from Jesus?

Ok…so according to you, if “God” told you He was a pencil, you wouldn’t “just” believe Him.

GOD would only do that via the Magisterium. If God told me that He “was a pencil” (whatever that means?) via the Magisterium, then I’d take His word for it.

Quote:
Jesus places limits on what is proper to Him. Since Jesus would not do this, it won’t be done. “Pencils” are improper material for “consecrated host”.

I’m sure people thought that unleavened bread and wine was “improper” material because they weren’t sacrificially slaughtered animals.

Jesus physically TOLD us that He was present in the bread and wine at that time. What “people” think is utterly irrelevent to what God has told us.

Quote:
Why, based on the deposit of faith of our tradition, would consecration of pencils be “a good idea”?

Every point you are trying to make to limit what God would or wouldn’t do according to your capacity to accept or understand was said by non-Believers in Christ.

God has limited His authentic communication, or authentic verification of private communication with us to the Magisterium.

I’m not limiting God in any way. I’m simply accepting God’s limits which He has made.

What is this “…was said by non-bbelievers in Christ” line above of yours about?