If Jesus told you He was a pencil...

[Syele]

Syele;3287244:

Or is it just the one with whom you disagree?

If I saw someone being rude in a forum I’d say something. Especially if it was my friend or people I agree with, it’s not about harassing anyone I don’t agree with. Most people would not want to be percieved as rude to others and would want to know. If you don’t care, that is your perrogative. Maybe CAF posters are unusual and it doesn’t bug them, I don’t know. I was not trying to be harsh in letting you know about it nor demand you bend to my will. just pointing out basic net forum norms in case you didn’t know about them.

 

[2ndGen]

=CalmDownWisWins;3287274]

There IS NO WAY for me to know that my private relevation is what it says it is. This is utterly true. Therefore, I can’t take it as truth until it is verified as true, which is the function of the Church.

It’s impossible for God to reveal to you truth directly?

Or for you to believe God when He does?

…and once again, I can’t know that, which obliterates your scenario as possible as stated.

Maybe I can’t blame you…maybe you’ve never experienced Jesus personally like I have. Maybe, I’m speaking from a vantage you never had. It’s just difficult for me to believe that Jesus would talk to me and not talk to others as He has to me. I want to believe that He’s spoken to you too.

When He spoke to me, I believed Him right away. I was a child the first time. Lucky me.

Now, this is the position of a protestant, which you obviously are. You’re welcomed to your protestant way of doing things.

Right now, dozens of lurkers just let out a collective laugh at the reading of your accusation of me being a protestant.

Jesus told them the way that scripture foretold Him. They refused to believe Him.

That “holy pencil”, if not infallibly claimed as Jesus-in-the-graphite, will drag you straight to hell if held onto.

See that first sentence? “Jesus told them…They refused to believe Him.”

In this scenario, you did the same thing. If Jesus told you, you’d refuse to believe Him.

I wouldn’t worry about being dragged to Hell for believe what Jesus said. Whether it was His being a pencil or His being a piece of bread and wine.

Jesus doesn’t lead people to Hell.

 

[2ndGen]

When the Magisterium tells me that, for whatever “interesting” reason, Jesus has become “a pencil”, then I’ll believe that that is true.

My OPINION is that this is highly unlikely, as there SEEMS to be no justification for this odd “trans-substantiation” in any theology tha I’m aware of, but I’m sure it would be fascinating as to WHY this made sense (as the Magisterium is quite good at giving reasons for that which they declare TRUE) if it WERE true!

Then if you choose to “not” believe Jesus and to only believe what The Magistarium tells you to believe over Jesus first, your loyalties are to The Magistarium.

Funny thing is that I imagine The Church responding to you like this:

What?
Jesus spoke to you and He said He was pencil!
Where is He!
I want to go worship that pencil!

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

You can respond to two things in one post. Many forums across the net will actually auto merge posts to stop people from posting one after the other like that (I know of one that bans people for it too) they include it right in with stuff like no one word posts and no posts in all caps. I’m not a mod here so you don’t have to listen to me. But I have been in forums all over the net for years and just thought I’d ask. I said it was rude thinking maybe you jsut didn’t know people would see it that way. When you top a thread with a new post, people click on it and read a post by 2ndgen, then you do it again seconds later, the reader ends up having to reopen the thread 3 or 4 times just to see all of what you have to say. Of course it’s just a forum, that doesn’t mean your actions don’t affect other people besides yourself. You don’t have to do anything to meet “my” needs, I will not even say anything about it again. If someone posted every post in all caps I’d have asked them to stop, noted it was rude, and said please too.

You can also view the posts in a thread in a “tree” fashion (true-threaded-style), which is set somewhere or other in one’s “options” in your “profile”.

Quite often these “heavily brachiated” threads are best dealt with by tracking “backwards” from later to earlier posts, where the later ones are the ones that first are of interest.

Anyway, the “subscribed” threads function and the “advanced seach” (searching for posts on usernames) functions can make viewing these all-over-the-place threads easier, if not actually fun.

 

[2ndGen]

2ndGen;3287285:

If I saw someone being rude in a forum I’d say something. Especially if it was my friend or people I agree with, it’s not about harassing anyone I don’t agree with. Most people would not want to be percieved as rude to others and would want to know. If you don’t care, that is your perrogative. Maybe CAF posters are unusual and it doesn’t bug them, I don’t know. I was not trying to be harsh in letting you know about it nor demand you bend to my will. just pointing out basic net forum norms in case you didn’t know about them.

Funny…I’m the only one you’re adressing when there is someone else here doing the exact same thing you pointed out to me.



Trust me, I didn’t do it intentionally and I believe that it is completely proper when responding to multiple posters or one poster with multiple questions.

 

[2ndGen]

How is this being a Catholic, to NOT believe the Church?

I don’t understand that question.

No where have I stated that I dont’ believe The Church.

But if The Church was to ever teach differently than what Jesus teaches (which is the only real impossiblity), then I would have to automatically side with Jesus.

Jesus first, Church second.

The Church has to coincide with Jesus,
not Jesus with The Church.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Then if you choose to “not” believe Jesus and to only believe what The Magistarium tells you to believe over Jesus first, your loyalties are to The Magistarium.

I won’t get into your spelling of “Magisterium” above.

Your lack of understanding of the Church is profound, though not atypical.

Best to you in your further, an obviously necessary, education in what being a Catholic means.

 

[Syele]

Syele;3287315:

Funny…I’m the only one you’re adressing when there is someone else here doing the exact same thing you pointed out to me.



Trust me, I didn’t do it intentionally and I believe that it is completely proper when responding to multiple posters or one poster with multiple questions.

I didn’t see the other person who did it. I didnt’ say anything to you at first either… not till it was everytime I see you posted anywhere. Anyway, I have said what I had to say about it you can take it or leave it, It’s time for me to go to Church.

As fot the pencil, weren’t we agreeing anyhow?

 

[Good_Daughter]

Jesus first, Catholic Church second.

The two are inseparable, we’re not meant to choose. Jesus teaches this lesson to Saul in Acts 9:4-5.

I see the point in this thread’s question, I just don’t see much point in faithful Catholics responding.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

Quote:
…and once again, I can’t know that, which obliterates your scenario as possible as stated.

Maybe I can’t blame you…maybe you’ve never experienced Jesus personally like I have. Maybe, I’m speaking from a vantage you never had. It’s just difficult for me to believe that Jesus would talk to me and not talk to others as He has to me. I want to believe that He’s spoken to you too.

Yet more protestant holdover contagion which he’s managed to insinuate into HIS Catholic doctrine.

Fascinating to see this in action. “Unverified Private Revelation” as more important than the truth of God through God’s means!

Very interesting “Catholic” doctrine?

 

[2ndGen]

I won’t get into your spelling of “Magisterium” above.

Your lack of understanding of the Church is profound, though not atypical.

Best to you in your further, an obviously necessary, education in what being a Catholic means.

Remember, for you own good, believe in The Church because you believe in Jesus first.

If He ever comes to you (as He has to me and to others), don’t doubt Him.

If you have to question whether it’s Him or not…it is not Him.

When it’s Jesus…you “know” it’s Jesus.

I can’t explain it to you…you have to experience it.

Maybe when you can debate without insulting,
He’ll reveal Himself to you too.

Not that I’m an angel, but I certainly speak from experience when I say that I know what He “doesn’t” like.

 

[2ndGen]

The two are inseparable, we’re not meant to choose. Jesus teaches this lesson to Saul in Acts 9:4-5.

I see the point in this thread’s question, I just don’t see much point in faithful Catholics responding.

Faithful Catholics and Christians say “YES!” to Jesus.

And yes, the two are inseparable…matter of fact, The Church never had anything to do with this topic (on blind faith of a Christian).

However, if Jesus spoke to one, they are “not” to question Him. They are just to obey.

 

[2ndGen]

2ndGen;3287340:

I didn’t see the other person who did it. I didnt’ say anything to you at first either… not till it was everytime I see you posted anywhere. Anyway, I have said what I had to say about it you can take it or leave it, It’s time for me to go to Church.

As fot the pencil, weren’t we agreeing anyhow?

To be honest, I forgot.
Forgive me.
I’ll take your word that we were agreeing.
And for that, I’ll send you a…:hug3:

 

[2ndGen]

Yet more protestant holdover contagion which he’s managed to insinuate into HIS Catholic doctrine.

Fascinating to see this in action. “Unverified Private Revelation” as more important than the truth of God through God’s means!

Very interesting “Catholic” doctrine?

Jesus talking “is” The Church talking.

The reason that The Church exists is because of Christ.

It doesn’t confirm Him, but is confirmed by Him.

Jesus first, Church second.

 

[CalmDownWisWins]

If you have to question whether it’s Him or not…it is not Him.

When it’s Jesus…you “know” it’s Jesus.

The folks at Jones’ Town KNEW it was “Jesus”.

The folks at “[A Call to Action](Dissenting Organizations description)”, and other “Catholic Dissenter” groups KNOW it is “Jesus”.

You KNOW it is “Jesus”.

The simply fact that you think there can be a different message which could simultaneously come from God and His Church tells me, unequivocally, that you DON’T know it is “Jesus” speaking to you in private revelation.

 

[2ndGen]

The folks at Jones’ Town KNEW it was “Jesus”.

The folks at “[A Call to Action](Dissenting Organizations description)”, and other “Catholic Dissenter” groups KNOW it is “Jesus”.

You KNOW it is “Jesus”.

The simply fact that you think there can be a different message which could simultaneously come from God and His Church tells me, unequivocally, that you DON’T know it is “Jesus” speaking to you in private revelation.

How could anyone who spoke against The Catholic Church as those groups did be Jesus?

Duh?

When Jesus reveald Himself to me,
He confirmed The Church was “The” Church to me.
His Church.

Where did you get your confirmation from?

A book?

If so, does that make your confirmation any better or more superior than mine because mine came from Jesus?

 

[Christine_Blake]

This isn’t about The Eucharist as much as it is about blind obedience.

Remove the pencil…if I ask it like this:

If Jesus told you to jump off a bridge and you’d be saved…

That would be committing suicide, but Jesus told you.

What is the authority there?

The Law against suicide or Jesus Who is The Law.

Now, if you were obeying Jesus, would you be committing suicide? No…you were pursuing eternal life.

But if you’re a stickler for the letter of The Law instead of the spirit of The Law, then you’d be bound by The Law and you wouldn’t commit suicide physically to receive eternal heaven spiritually.

People might say “Jesus would never tell you to hurt yourself!”

But Jesus is the same One Who told us to gouge our eye out if it causes us to sin and that no greater love has a man for another than the one who lays down his life for his brother.

Would I jump off a bridge if Jesus promised me eternal salvation?

Yes. I am not a “Lawian”…I am a "Christ"ian.

Jesus words to me supercede anything else.
He is God.
What He says…“is”.

And Jesus said, “The Law was made for man, not man for the Law”

 

[deacon_d]

2ndgen- But Jesus is the same One Who told us to gouge our eye out if it causes us to sin and that no greater love has a man for another than the one who lays down his life for his brother.

Interesting point. Jesus also said literally to chop off your arm if it causes you to sin. Why are Catholics not walking around with their eyes gouged out and their arms chopped off? Was he speaking literally or figuratively?? Makes you wonder about the bread and wine. Was he literal or figurative?? Why literal with one and figurative with the other? The original words in Greek were pretty graphic. I believe literally to gouge and literally to chop.

Just to clarify. Is Jesus himself talking to you telling you he is a pencil? Or is it the pencil itself that starts talking telling you he is Jesus?

 

[Al_Masetti]

The key to all this speculation and discussion is … “what” is the true nature of Jesus?

Jesus is both God and Man.

How can that be?

And we have other confusing aspects to the discussion: “Unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you will not have everlasting life”. John 6: 20-70.

What does this mean? We know that Jesus did not mean cannibalism.

Read about the Transfiguration. Yet another state of “being”.

On the road to Emmaeus, Jesus was with them, but they did not recognize Him, until suddenly they saw. Yet another state of “being”.

Wednesday I was reading “Swear to God: The Promise and Power of the Sacraments” by Scott Hahn.

I was mesmerized by the notion of “parousia”, which Dr. Hahn discusses starting on page 183.

I’m going to type in just a few sentences from that discussion:

“Rapt Presence. Jesus’ presence in the Eucharist is unique. The early Church used a certain Greek word to describe this reality. They called it “parousia” [Hahn used italics], which means ‘presence, arrival, coming, or advent’. Today, non-Catholics (and even many Catholics) use the word ‘parousia’ to denote the so-called second coming of Christ at the end of time – distinct from His daily coming in the Eucharist. It was no so, however, in the works of the Church fathers and in the earliest liturges; there, ‘Eucharist’ and ‘second coming’ are often treated as equivalent events.”

And on page 198: “What divine madness: God has called us not to be saintly, but to be saints. For only saints will enter heaven. And what is a saint? A saint is someone who has been perfected. ‘Be perfect’, Jesus told the motley crowd that gathered to hear Him. 'Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

The point is that there is NO HUMAN way for us to understand the nature of God.

Human writers have tried for two thousand years to describe the nature of God, but have failed … because we humans are limited to human concepts.

Humans are finite and we cannot understand … we are constitutionally unable to understand … God’s Infinity.

We tend to say that … well, my IQ is 100 and Bill Gates’ IQ is 200 and Einstein’s IQ was 300 … so God’s IQ must be much greater … 400.

But God’s IQ is infinite. There is no comparison between God’s vocabulary and ours.

We humans can only make inadequate comparisons: God is the size of the universe and I am the size of a fly speck on the wall … for example. But that description is inadequate.

The best writer of the thousand years from 1000 to 2000 was St. Thomas Aquinas. And after he was granted a vision of Heaven, he tried to burn his writings … because he said that his work … the best work of the millenium … was nothing more than “straw”. Trash. And that’s Aquinas talking.

If we want to understand what Jesus tells us (and shows us) about His Nature, then we are going to really have to work at it. [and we will still fall far far short.]

 

[Christine_Blake]

Interesting point. Jesus also said literally to chop off your arm if it causes you to sin. Why are Catholics not walking around with their eyes gouged out and their arms chopped off? Was he speaking literally or figuratively?? Makes you wonder about the bread and wine. Was he literal or figurative?? Why literal with one and figurative with the other? The original words in Greek were pretty graphic. I believe literally to gouge and literally to chop.
QUOTE]

Because of the context of the rest of the writing in both stories…For example, partially because as you read John 6…Jesus loses many followers when they ask the same question you are and He simply repeats Himself about the validity of His words…He agrees it is a hard belief and even shows the door (that is figuratively) to the apostles…In the other He says “It is better that you gouge your eye out…”