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2ndGen
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mschrank
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Yeah, he’s Jesus.
I don’t understand how someone could believe in God (where is he? I don’t see him, and this world sucks!) and then believe that the Eucharist is a stretch.
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Al_Masetti
Guest
I got interrupted and omitted an interesting and important aspect of Scott Hahn’s discussion on “parousia” … on page 229 - 230 of " Swear to God" :
"What has been traditionally understood as the second coming of Christ is best conceived as a revelation of his formerly hidden, heavenly ‘presence’. The references to “parousia” in Phil 2:19, 3:13, and 5:23 also carry the same connotation.
[THIS IS THE BEST PART]: “When Christ appears, he will not descend from the air over Boston or London or New York City or Hong Kong or any other localized area. When he appears, the present dimension will be ripped away, and Christ will be manifest to all eyes throughout the earth (see Mt 24:27) , How this is possible in literal geographical terms is certainly unclear, but the answer lies in recalling that a new dimension will break into the old physical dimension, and the possibilities of new kinds of perception and of existence beyond present understanding will then be realized. Interestingly, Revelation 21:3, 22 say that directly following Christ’s final coming, God and the Lamb will form a ‘tabernacling’ presence over all redeemed believers … The figurative nature of the language is also pointed to by reference to the trumpet call of God ( 1 Thes 4:16), which is like the blowing of the trumpets in Revelation or like God’s throne in heaven or Christ as a heavenly lamb …” Beale further notes: "If John were living today, he might use the analogy of a stage curtain with pictures on it, which is drawn from both sides to reveal the actors behind it. In short, the present physical reality will in some way disappear and the formerly hidden heavenly dimension, where Christ and God dwell, will be revealed (see further Rev 11:19; 19:11; 21:1-3).
These quotes are in Hahn and are from G.K. Beale’s “1-2 Thessalonians” (Downes Grove, IL, InterVarsity Press, 2003.
The point is that relating the nature of Jesus to anything we have in any earthly dimension would be misleading. And, further, our understanding of earthly physics and physical presences do not apply to the nature of Jesus.
In trying to grasp with other dimensions, for example, most science fiction depicts characters that look, more or less, like humans. Occasionally there are attempts to employ literary devices such as “shape shifters” or “subspace” or other dimensions. But all of them have to use visual and verbal and written means of interpretation, and therefore all of them fall totally and completely short. Even when people employ drugs, they fall short of experiencing or witnessing another dimension.
"What has been traditionally understood as the second coming of Christ is best conceived as a revelation of his formerly hidden, heavenly ‘presence’. The references to “parousia” in Phil 2:19, 3:13, and 5:23 also carry the same connotation.
[THIS IS THE BEST PART]: “When Christ appears, he will not descend from the air over Boston or London or New York City or Hong Kong or any other localized area. When he appears, the present dimension will be ripped away, and Christ will be manifest to all eyes throughout the earth (see Mt 24:27) , How this is possible in literal geographical terms is certainly unclear, but the answer lies in recalling that a new dimension will break into the old physical dimension, and the possibilities of new kinds of perception and of existence beyond present understanding will then be realized. Interestingly, Revelation 21:3, 22 say that directly following Christ’s final coming, God and the Lamb will form a ‘tabernacling’ presence over all redeemed believers … The figurative nature of the language is also pointed to by reference to the trumpet call of God ( 1 Thes 4:16), which is like the blowing of the trumpets in Revelation or like God’s throne in heaven or Christ as a heavenly lamb …” Beale further notes: "If John were living today, he might use the analogy of a stage curtain with pictures on it, which is drawn from both sides to reveal the actors behind it. In short, the present physical reality will in some way disappear and the formerly hidden heavenly dimension, where Christ and God dwell, will be revealed (see further Rev 11:19; 19:11; 21:1-3).
These quotes are in Hahn and are from G.K. Beale’s “1-2 Thessalonians” (Downes Grove, IL, InterVarsity Press, 2003.
The point is that relating the nature of Jesus to anything we have in any earthly dimension would be misleading. And, further, our understanding of earthly physics and physical presences do not apply to the nature of Jesus.
In trying to grasp with other dimensions, for example, most science fiction depicts characters that look, more or less, like humans. Occasionally there are attempts to employ literary devices such as “shape shifters” or “subspace” or other dimensions. But all of them have to use visual and verbal and written means of interpretation, and therefore all of them fall totally and completely short. Even when people employ drugs, they fall short of experiencing or witnessing another dimension.
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2ndGen
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deacon_d
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deacon_d;3287773:
Great points. I would say if Jesus is talking to me I’m listening. So if he told me he was an ice cream cone then I say Ok whatever you say.I thought I answered this one, but I see it didn’t post. Sorry.
Of course the missing arm thing was on my mind.
I took it literally that it “is” better for us to remove a body part that leads us to sin (especially those that men use to go to the bathroom with), but while I took Jesus’ words literally, what I got from the scripture is that He is telling us that the alternative to sinning is so drastic, that we should just “not” sin in the first place.
Imagine if everytime we were about to steal, an ax would appear to us floating in the air giving us to ability to obey Jesus’ suggestion that we cut our arm off. Right there we’re faced with a choice. How many of use would grab that ax? All of a sudden, stealing’s not a great idea.
I believe that Jesus’ words are like that ax floating in the air.
No, it is Jesus literally in the flesh talking to you (ala’ during the last supper).
If the pencil was to talk to me, I’d seek professional help (for the rest of the board, please, no comments that I do so anyway!
)
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deacon_d
Guest
That’s pretty good stuff. So then not to sound too ignorant, what does that imply about the Eucharist?? Is it physical presence, spiritual, just symbolic??
Thanks
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deacon_d
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In all fairness I don’t think people see the Eucharist as physially becoming Jesus impossible. We know GOD can do anything. I think the question is, did Jesus intend it that way. Not trying to take the thread another way or create tension
Just wanted to clarify.
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2ndGen
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2ndGen;3290704:
“…then I say Ok whatever you say.”
The very definition of a Christian.
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2ndGen
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When I think of Jesus’ words, I don’t try to bend them to my capacity to understand.In all fairness I don’t think people see the Eucharist as physially becoming Jesus impossible. We know GOD can do anything. I think the question is, did Jesus intend it that way. Not trying to take the thread another way or create tension
Instead of believing that He is saying that the bread becomes human flesh,
I take it that He makes the bread His body.
It is still bread, but now, because “He says so”, that bread is His body
(not that the bread became flesh, but that the definition of flesh
[in particular, Jesus’] now includes unleavened bread).
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Rocky
Guest
Jesus is really, truly and substantially present, Body/Blood/Soul & Divinity, in the Eucharist. The Eucharist is not a symbol but is the Lord. How can this be? Well, if God can say “Let there be Light” and then there was light, why would we question God when He said “This is my Body” as to whether it can truly be His Body?
Something a priest said at Mass makes a lot of sense to me. He said that when the baby grows in the womb of the mother, the child is not seen nor held. But we know the child is there and we await the day to see and hold the child. This is what Jesus is asking us, giving us in the Eucharist—He is truly with us until the end of time, and we await the day when we will meet Him face to face, body to Body.
Something a priest said at Mass makes a lot of sense to me. He said that when the baby grows in the womb of the mother, the child is not seen nor held. But we know the child is there and we await the day to see and hold the child. This is what Jesus is asking us, giving us in the Eucharist—He is truly with us until the end of time, and we await the day when we will meet Him face to face, body to Body.
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2ndGen
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:clapping: :bowdown: :clapping: :bowdown:
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deacon_d
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We need to frame this and use it. That’s how I always saw it but could not articulate it. When I see the bread I see Jesus body, whe I see the wine I see Jesus blood. Isn’t this what Augustine maintained?? Or maybe it was Clement?? Oh well.
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deacon_d
Guest
Absolutely!!!
Something a priest said at Mass makes a lot of sense to me. He said that when the baby grows in the womb of the mother, the child is not seen nor held. But we know the child is there and we await the day to see and hold the child. This is what Jesus is asking us, giving us in the Eucharist—He is truly with us until the end of time, and we await the day when we will meet Him face to face, body to Body.
As Jeremy Camp writes in his song: “I will walk by Faith even if I cannot see, for this broken road prepares YOUR will for me”.
If we start questioning the road just breaks more and more.
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2ndGen
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To be completely honest, sometimes I say things that I have no idea where they came from.
Beliefs that I never had before come from me and turn out to be completely new and enlightening. At those times, I want to believe that it is God using me as a (no pun intended) pencil to interject what He wants us to know.
I cannot take credit for anything good I say because I honestly don’t believe I’m capable of saying anything so good…if it comes out of my mouth and it’s “good”, it’s not me, but God.
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deacon_d
Guest
That’s so funny you say that. I have the same thing happen to me quite frequently. I’ll ask myself a question like why did Jesus do this or that. Suddenly for some reason, I’m able to reason it out in a way that makes perfect sense. Then I’ll think. where’d that come from?? Must be the talking ice cream coneTo be completely honest, sometimes I say things that I have no idea where they came from.
Beliefs that I never had before come from me and turn out to be completely new and enlightening. At those times, I want to believe that it is God using me as a (no pun intended) pencil to interject what He wants us to know.
I cannot take credit for anything good I say because I honestly don’t believe I’m capable of saying anything so good…if it comes out of my mouth and it’s “good”, it’s not me, but God.
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2ndGen
Guest
Oh oh, now “we” worship ice cream cones!That’s so funny you say that. I have the same thing happen to me quite frequently. I’ll ask myself a question like why did Jesus do this or that. Suddenly for some reason, I’m able to reason it out in a way that makes perfect sense. Then I’ll think. where’d that come from?? Must be the talking ice cream cone
Somebody’s going to launch an entire website devoted to that with “supporting” scripture and pictures with The Pope consecrating an ice cream cone (or putting it up to his mouth to eat it…depending on “who” you ask!
).I’ve been told that I have a Charism for seeing things in scripture by very credible persons. To name them would be like bragging, so I won’t, but I respect them enough (as does the Catholic faith) to trust their wisdom.
I’ve just become way more careful about “what” I share and how I share it (except those times that things just come out).
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deacon_d
Guest
I’ve always said we could string enough lines of scripture together to justify eating ice cream conesOh oh, now “we” worship ice cream cones!
Somebody’s going to launch an entire website devoted to that with “supporting” scripture and pictures with The Pope consecrating an ice cream cone (or putting it up to his mouth to eat it…depending on “who” you ask!
I’ve been told that I have a Charism for seeing things in scripture by very credible persons. To name them would be like bragging, so I won’t, but I respect them enough (as does the Catholic faith) to trust their wisdom.
I’ve just become way more careful about “what” I share and how I share it (except those times that things just come out).
It reminds me of an episode of Friends.Joey gets ordained over the Internet to marry Monica and Chandler. In a later episode Chandler finds out Joey is still ordained to which he says, “I didn’t know you were still ordained” Joey’s response “Yeah like I’d give up free rides on the subway” to which chandler replies “Priests don’t get free rides on the subway”. Joey says “Well I had to read the Bible real carefully but, yea they do”.
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Al_Masetti
Guest
If it was merely symbolic, then the people to whom he was speaking would not have turned away and left … and in such numbers that Jesus turned to the apostles and asked if they would also leave.
The teaching of the Church is that the Consecrated Host has had its essence changed … so that the Host is now the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
With respect to whether it is a physical presence … read “Eucharistic Miracles” by Joan Carol Cruz. It is physical if Jesus chooses to make it physical … and He has from time to time. Very physical.
amazon.com/Eucharistic-Miracles-Joan-Carroll-Cruz/dp/0895553031/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202427564&sr=1-1
What is important is to keep in mind that … we are talking about a gift from God Himself … on His terms … at a time and in a dimension of His choosing.
Very difficult for us mere humans to understand the mysterious mind of God. Impossible really. Which is why it is helpful for us to read such things as Scott Hahn’s books … because he has the unusual ability to “connect the dots” so to speak … linking in a positive and helpful way various biblical quotations.
You might also take a look at the books by DeStefano …
Ten Prayers God Always Says Yes To: Divine Answers to Life’s Most Difficult Problems by Anthony Destefano (Hardcover - May 1, 2007)
amazon.com/Ten-Prayers-God-Always-Says/dp/0385509901/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202427474&sr=1-1
A Travel Guide to Heaven by Anthony Destefano (Paperback - Nov 1, 2005)
amazon.com/Travel-Guide-Heaven-Anthony-Destefano/dp/0385509898/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202427319&sr=1-2
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2ndGen
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I guess worship would be on “Sundaes”!I’ve always said we could string enough lines of scripture together to justify eating ice cream cones.
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