If Jesus told you He was a pencil...

[Zooey]

If Jesus came and spoke to me now, and said something that contradicts sacred Scripture and the magesterial teaching of the Church he founded, I would head for a shrink because I know I could not possibly be seeing and hearing Jesus Christ. If a shrink didn’t cure me I would look for an excorcist. It is not possible for Jesus to appear to someone today and make a claim or statement that contradicts either, because public revelation ceased with the death of the last apostle…

Exactly!!

Now, if what the question is, is "What if Jesus had said this when He was living here on earth, that is a different question.
But my private revelations are not necessarily safe for me to follow, much less for anybody else to follow–Hence the reluctance of the Catholic Church to approve such revelations.
I’m sure that John Calvin was sincere in believeing that “the floor of hell is covered with the bodies of Catholic babies, crawling around there because they are not ‘elect’!” But that was a figment of his own imagination, created from his own prejudices…

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

…"What if Jesus had said this when He was living here on earth, that is a different question…

Would it really be a different question?

Would the question be any different if Jesus, whilst living here on earth, took some bread and said “This is my body”?

This is a very clever thread.

Would the pencil just be a symbol of Jesus? Or would it actually be Jesus in the appearance of a pencil?

Is the bread a symbol of Jesus? Or is it actually Jesus in the appearance of bread?

 

[Zooey]

Would it really be a different question?

Yes, because what I am mistrusting in this equation is not Jesus; I am not trusting myself.
I could be hallucinating. I could be delusional. Satan could be appearing as “an angel of light” & claiming to be Jesus. Some spirit could be appearing to me, and telling me that “There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet”.
If the question is framed to ask, what would I believe if Jesus, while here on earth, said that He is a pencil, is totally different from what my response would be (unless I am in need of psychiatric care–fast), if someone or something claiming to be Jesus (or from Jesus) shows up in my bedroom window, and says, “I am Jesus, and I am a pencil”.

Discernment, discernment, discernment.

Would the question be any different if Jesus, whilst living here on earth, took some bread and said “This is my body”?

This is a very clever thread.

Would the pencil just be a symbol of Jesus? Or would it actually be Jesus in the appearance of a pencil?

Is the bread a symbol of Jesus? Or is it actually Jesus in the appearance of bread?

Its really Jesus.
We will now hear from about 8,952.17 Catholics who are just dying to tell me that us Methodists really do have, is just bread as a symbol of Jesus…

 

[2ndGen]

Would it really be a different question?

Would the question be any different if Jesus, whilst living here on earth, took some bread and said “This is my body”?

This is a very clever thread.

Would the pencil just be a symbol of Jesus? Or would it actually be Jesus in the appearance of a pencil?

Is the bread a symbol of Jesus? Or is it actually Jesus in the appearance of bread?

Thank you Charlie.

And on the would it be a different question? Good question.

If Jesus came to me and told me that I was wrong about everything I ever thought I knew about him, I would drop everythig I ever knew about Him.

If I didn’t, then I wouldn’t be a follower of Christ, but a follower of whoever I placed above Christ. If I had to go outside of Christ to prove Christ, I would have no faith in Christ.

That would be a nice signature for this thread…

“Christian becuse “of” Christ.”

 

[2ndGen]

Yes, because what I am mistrusting in this equation is not Jesus; I am not trusting myself.
I could be hallucinating. I could be delusional.

 

[Zooey]

You’re not engaging the question…the question (clearly) was “If Jesus…”, not “If you were approached by something calling itself Jesus…”.

You’re trying to justify “not” believing in Jesus wholeheartedly without demanding proof by trying to “not” answer the question as asked, but by answering questions “not” asked.

On the contrary, I’m simply trying to ascertain what question you are asking.
Since we are dealing with a hypothetical case, and since there are two ways to interpret the question, I need to know which question are you asking??

This is the problem with private revelations.
Now, if the hypothetical under discussion is “what if that** public** revelation was other than it is?”, that is one thing…and I’ve said, that if “Jesus is a pencil” is part of public revelation, then Jesus is a pencil.
But if this is a **private **revelation, I am going to pass on this one.
I accept Guadelupe without reservation; I accept most–perhaps all- of Lourdes [albeit with some mental reservations]; and more than a little of Fatima rings true…but, I don’t hang my faith on them; I don’t need to. My faith is in the Person of Jesus Christ, as He is revealed by Scripture & Tradition, not in any private revelation from anyone, however holy.

My faith is right here>>>>http://bestsmileys.com/religous/6.gif

I don’t trust myself. I know how unreliable I am. I know what a confused mess I can turn myself into, and I cannot, will not, must not, trust myself.
“My hope is built on nothing less, than Jesus’ Blood and Righteousness;
I dare not trust the sweetest frame, but wholly lean on Jesus’ Name”…

“When all around my soul gives way, He then is **all **my Hope & Stay;
On Christ the Solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand”.

I can’t divorce myself from the One with the nail-scarred hands, as He has been revealed. I have to stick with that Jesus, because I know Who He is.
And I know that He died…by torture. For me.
If I were the only person to ever believe in Him, He would have done all that…just for me.

I don’t know any other way to explain it to you…

 

[MrS]

I would hope to have the grace to recognize Jesus in whatever form He came.

Now, in your silly “pencil” story…

If there is an eraser at the end… nope, not Jesus… He does not make mistakes

If the pencil is the 2nd Person of the Trinity, I would expect it to only have the #2 designation,

And if I was hesitant to defend Him and the Truth of the Faith, and I felt I did not know what to do, I believe He would probably tell me “Get the Lead out”.

by the way… mechanical or wood…

If mechanical, is the brand Cross?

disclaimer: this post was simply presented for some humor with my coffee… and no disrespect for the Lord is intended at all. I think that is the feeling of the OP too… it better be, or he will get jabbed - not with the dull end of the pencil either.

.

 

[Christine_Blake]

Christine Blake;3290306:

That’s incorrect. Jesus doesn’t say it is better to gouge your eye out. He says gouge it out. It is better for one body part to go to hell then the whole. Here’s the entire verse:

27 “You have heard the commandment that says, ‘You must not commit adultery.’[k] 28 But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 So if your eye—even your good eye[l]—causes you to lust, gouge it out and throw it away.

It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your hand—even your stronger hand[m]—causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

No figurative language here. Jesus says if my hand causes sin, cut it off. If my eye causes sin, gouge it out. Pretty graphic if you ask me. What’s the message though. Jesus uses literal language to drive home the point of how he feels about sin.

I stand corrected…or actually sit corrected to be literal However, yes, this is my point…the context is to avoid sin at any cost…the physical body is less important than the spiritual reality…He does not later than cut off sinners’ hands, However, in the Eucharist reading, Jesus does follow it up by handing them His body and blood to eat…and the context of the Sedar meal is very important…it is not a random glass of wine, but the wine of the covenant that He offers as the new Lamb…we have to read the order of the Sedar along with the text to see what it would have meant to the listeners at the Last Supper…

 

[2ndGen]

On the contrary, I’m simply trying to ascertain what question you are asking.
Since we are dealing with a hypothetical case, and since there are two ways to interpret the question, I need to know which question are you asking??

This is the problem with private revelations.
Now, if the hypothetical under discussion is “what if that** public** revelation was other than it is?”, that is one thing…and I’ve said, that if “Jesus is a pencil” is part of public revelation, then Jesus is a pencil.
But if this is a **private **revelation, I am going to pass on this one.
I accept Guadelupe without reservation; I accept most–perhaps all- of Lourdes [albeit with some mental reservations]; and more than a little of Fatima rings true…but, I don’t hang my faith on them; I don’t need to. My faith is in the Person of Jesus Christ, as He is revealed by Scripture & Tradition, not in any private revelation from anyone, however holy.

My faith is right here>>>>http://bestsmileys.com/religous/6.gif

I don’t trust myself. I know how unreliable I am. I know what a confused mess I can turn myself into, and I cannot, will not, must not, trust myself.
“My hope is built on nothing less, than Jesus’ Blood and Righteousness;
I dare not trust the sweetest frame, but wholly lean on Jesus’ Name”…

“When all around my soul gives way, He then is all my Hope & Stay;
On Christ the Solid Rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand”.

I can’t divorce myself from the One with the nail-scarred hands, as He has been revealed. I have to stick with that Jesus, because I know Who He is.
And I know that He died…by torture. For me.
If I were the only person to ever believe in Him, He would have done all that…just for me.

I don’t know any other way to explain it to you…

That’s all beautiful and admirable, but why can’t you trust Jesus?

What’s “personal revelation” when it’s Him talking to you directly?

When He spoke to me, I clutched on to His every word without one doubt.

There is a saying that goes something to the effect of:

“Lord, I believe…help my unbelief.”



Hint: When Jesus talks to you, don’t doubt Him.
How will you know it’s Him? Trust someone who’s
been there…You will know it’s Him. It’s undeniable.

Even demons and Satan know Jesus when He appears without question.

 

[2ndGen]

Just one more thing on “private” revelation…

…when Jesus talks to you, it’s not “your” private revelation.

It’s “His” revelation to you.

We own nothing of it, we are nothing “in” it.
It’s all Jesus’ revelation.

 

[Champion_Havoc]

Why would Jesus be a pencil?

I think you are just full of nonsense,2ndGen

 

[Zooey]

That’s all beautiful and admirable, but why can’t you trust Jesus?

I trust Jesus implicitly.
That is precisely why I refuse to be led aside by private revelations, however temptingly beautiful they may be…St Teresa of Avila writes about a period in her life, when her confessor doubted that her visons/revelations were really of God. He told her to “make the fig” at them…Different gesture, but the equivalent of today’s “giving someone the finger”.
Teresa says, it was extremely painful for her, but because she was under obedience to the priest who gave her those instructions, she did it, (albeit with a mental apology saying, “I’m sorry, Lord, but your servant, whom You have placed over me, has told me I have to do this”). And God rewarded her for her obedience, to a man who was mistaken in what He believed. Now that is trusting Jesus!!

What’s “personal revelation” when it’s Him talking to you directly?
When He spoke to me, I clutched on to His every word without one doubt.

This is the very definition of private revelation. I don’t doubt it was beautiful. It is a lovely thing to have a personal experience of Christ…but we have to submit it to the light of public revelation, and then, no matter how wrong we may feel, no matter how much it must hurt, if it is at odds with public revelation, we have to be willing to let it go.

There is a saying that goes something to the effect of:

“Lord, I believe…help my unbelief.”

Yes. It is in Scripture…which is, of course, a large part of public revelation.

Hint: When Jesus talks to you, don’t doubt Him.
How will you know it’s Him? Trust someone who’s
been there…You will know it’s Him. It’s undeniable.

This is fine to say. But what will you do, if & when what you hear from Him, is at odds with the consistent teaching of Scripture & Tradition??
It will hurt…but for me, there is no question: I will have to turn away from my private revelation, and trust that what Jesus said when He was walking this earth, is trustworthy, & that I am not. I am such a poor ornery sinner, who is thankful for His amazing grace. That’s all. That’s all any of us are, which is why we must have the humility to accept that we may be wrong, & that even if we are right, we are not to rebel against those whom God has placed as shepherds for our souls. Not even when we know that they are wrong.

Even demons and Satan know Jesus when He appears without question.

Yes,but they are, of course, preternatural creatures, former angels who have lost their place through sin.
And they may be directly involved in an act of spiritual warfare against us, using what seems to be Jesus as a weapon against our souls.

 

[Zooey]

Sometime in the intervening hours, it crossed my mind…Just wondering out loud:

Is it:blush: me, or is it ironical in the extreme, to find a Catholic arguing for personal experience, whilst a Methodist advises obedience??

Father Wesley must surely be looking down on us, and shaking his head (though, one hopes, smiling).

 

[2ndGen]

Why would Jesus be a pencil?

I think you are just full of nonsense,2ndGen

And your full of making comments, but not answering the original post.

 

[2ndGen]

I trust Jesus implicitly.
That is precisely why I refuse to be led aside by private revelations, however temptingly beautiful they may be…St Teresa of Avila writes about a period in her life, when her confessor doubted that her visons/revelations were really of God. He told her to “make the fig” at them…Different gesture, but the equivalent of today’s “giving someone the finger”.
Teresa says, it was extremely painful for her, but because she was under obedience to the priest who gave her those instructions, she did it, (albeit with a mental apology saying, “I’m sorry, Lord, but your servant, whom You have placed over me, has told me I have to do this”). And God rewarded her for her obedience, to a man who was mistaken in what He believed. Now that is trusting Jesus!!

This is the very definition of private revelation. I don’t doubt it was beautiful. It is a lovely thing to have a personal experience of Christ…but we have to submit it to the light of public revelation, and then, no matter how wrong we may feel, no matter how much it must hurt, if it is at odds with public revelation, we have to be willing to let it go.

Yes. It is in Scripture…which is, of course, a large part of public revelation.

This is fine to say. But what will you do, if & when what you hear from Him, is at odds with the consistent teaching of Scripture & Tradition??
It will hurt…but for me, there is no question: I will have to turn away from my private revelation, and trust that what Jesus said when He was walking this earth, is trustworthy, & that I am not. I am such a poor ornery sinner, who is thankful for His amazing grace. That’s all. That’s all any of us are, which is why we must have the humility to accept that we may be wrong, & that even if we are right, we are not to rebel against those whom God has placed as shepherds for our souls. Not even when we know that they are wrong.

Yes,but they are, of course, preternatural creatures, former angels who have lost their place through sin.
And they may be directly involved in an act of spiritual warfare against us, using what seems to be Jesus as a weapon against our souls.

If you trusted Jesus, then you wouldn’t doubt Him when He’s talking to you. His revelation to you is not ‘your’ private revelation, but His pulic revelation. You cannot own Jesus’ words and undo them. If He says He’s a pencil, then He’s a pencil. End of subject. No discussion neccessary, no need for proof.

If Jesus came here and said everything I’ve ever been taught by the world was wrong, then I would do whatever He says. I am a Christian, not a “worldian”.

Jesus first, foremost and everything. Over every website, book, story, everything.

 

[2ndGen]

Sometime in the intervening hours, it crossed my mind…Just wondering out loud:

Is it:blush: me, or is it ironical in the extreme, to find a Catholic arguing for personal experience, whilst a Methodist advises obedience??

Father Wesley must surely be looking down on us, and shaking his head (though, one hopes, smiling).

LOL!

Don’t take me too seriously…anyone who can start a debate based on a pencil is obviously “not” all there!

 

[Al_Masetti]

Before folks get too involved in a discussion of private revelation, they might want to read Fr. Benedict Groeschel’s book, “A Still Small Voice: A critical response to private revelation”.

books.google.com/books?id=A1NrfO2uFNAC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=groeschel+private+revelation&source=web&ots=B4WMyYKwHw&sig=yGPSKxPLfb0o-ynUsKH9O5s4VZI#PPP1,M1

amazon.com/Still-Small-Voice-Practical-Revelations/dp/0898704367

 

[2ndGen]

Before folks get too involved in a discussion of private revelation, they might want to read Fr. Benedict Groeschel’s book, “A Still Small Voice”.

books.google.com/books?id=A1NrfO2uFNAC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=groeschel+private+revelation&source=web&ots=B4WMyYKwHw&sig=yGPSKxPLfb0o-ynUsKH9O5s4VZI#PPP1,M1

amazon.com/Still-Small-Voice-Practical-Revelations/dp/0898704367

Love Father Groeschel!

Spent Easter Vigil with him!

 

[rinnie]

No…if it was literaly “Jesus Christ”, the only begotten Son of God (The God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Moses).

Well if you put it that way I cant believe im saying this but Yeah

 

[Al_Masetti]

Love Father Groeschel!

Spent Easter Vigil with him!

Fr. Benedict is amazing.

No idea how he does it.

[Well, yes I do … gotta be the Holy Spirit … Jesus must have decided that He needed to have him around here a little while longer.]

Some years ago, before the accident, Fr. Benedict was giving a retreat … and he looked a little gray and frayed around the edges. During the period dedicated to confessions for our group late one night, I asked him if he is getting some rest during the breaks … he said he was conducting a second retreat at another location about 20 miles away … and he was zipping back and forth … And he still had another 30 confessions to hear from our group …

It probably takes both the Second AND Third Persons of the Blessed Trinity to keep his batteries energized!

Amazing!!!