If the Qur'an is wrong, why be Muslim?

[Randy_Carson]

Could you show a verse in which Jesus said that He got crucified and raised from death after crucifixion?

Sure.

John 20:24-31
24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Either Thomas (and John who wrote this Gospel) and all the other disciples who had spent three years living with Jesus were terribly deceived about who was standing before them showing them his wounds, or else Jesus, their friend and our God, was truly risen from the dead.

 

[hasantas]

Jesus claimed to be God in many ways.

THE FIRST AND THE LAST

Surah 57:3 of the Qur’an refers to Allah as “the First and the Last, the Most High and the Most Near.” The Old Testament agrees that God is the “First and the Last,” as we read in the Book of the prophet Isaiah:

Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.”

When “LORD” is written in all capitals in the Old Testament, the term refers to Yahweh, the creator of the universe. Since both the Bible and the Qur’an give the title “the First and the Last” to God, it should be quite shocking for Muslims to open the New Testament and read Revelation 1:17-18, where Jesus says:

“Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.”

Would a mere prophet claim to be the “First and the Last”?

WHO FORGIVES SINS?

While one human being may sin against another human being, there is a sense in which all sin is rebellion against God. Similarly, while you and I may forgive one another for the wrongs we commit, only God can offer ultimate forgiveness. Thus, the prophet David could say to God, “Against You, You only, I have sinned 
and done what is evil in Your sight” (Psalm 51:4), and the Prophet Daniel could declare, “To the Lord our God belong compassion and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against Him” (Daniel 9:9).

The Qur’an agrees that ultimate forgiveness belongs to God, for it asks, “Who can forgive sins except Allah?” (3:135).

It might surprise Muslims to learn that, in the New Testament, Jesus claims the ability to forgive sins. In Mark 2, a paralyzed man is brought to Jesus in order to be healed. Jesus’ response leads the religious leaders to accuse him of blasphemy:

Mark 2:5-7
And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?”

The scribes correctly recognized that only God can forgive sins. Yet Jesus (who referred to himself as the “Son of Man”), knowing their thoughts, replied that “the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” (Mark 2:10). He then healed the paralytic, proving that his claims were true.

THE LIGHT

In Psalm 27:1, the prophet David proclaims: “The LORD is my light and my salvation.”

Similarly, the Qur’an declares that “Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth” (24:35).

Yet Jesus tells his listeners that he is “the Light”:

John 8:12
“I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life.”

More here:

Where Did Jesus Say, “I Am God, Worship Me”?
answeringmuslims.com/2011/06/where-did-jesus-say-i-am-god-worship-me.html

There is no direct statement which imply Jesus was God. But you conclude that through starined interpretation. I can interpret every verse in another way.

 

[Randy_Carson]

There is no direct statement which imply Jesus was God. But you conclude that through starined interpretation. I can interpret every verse in another way.

And who would be straining then?

Jesus never said the exact three words, “I am God.” But Jesus also never said the exact four words, “I am a prophet,” or the exact four words “I am a man,” but we know he was both a prophet and a man.

It is not necessary for Jesus to say the exact phrase “I am a man,” for us to know that he was a man. Likewise, it is not necessary for Jesus to utter the exact three words “I am God,” in order for us to determine whether or not he is divine. Jesus may not have said the exact sentence “I am God,” but he did claim the divine name for himself (Exo. 3:14 withJohn 8:58), and he also received worship (Matt. 2:2; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:35-38).

When Moses was up at the Mount speaking to God, Moses asked God what his name was. God said, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, ‘Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel,’ ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ (Exodus 3:14). In John 8:58 Jesus said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” Right after this the Jews picked up stones to throw at him. Later, in John 10:30-33 Jesus claimed to be one with the Father; and the Jews wanted to stone him again because they said to Jesus, “You, being a man, make yourself out to be God.” Jesus had claimed the divine name for his own, and the Jews wanted to kill him for it. Therefore, from Jesus’ own mouth we see that he was claiming to be God.

Of course, anyone can say the words “I am,” and it does not mean that he is claiming to be God. Someone could say, “I am over here.” That is not claiming the divine name. Likewise, someone could say, “I am hungry,” or “I am sick.” Neither example is claiming divinity because the use of the term “I am” in context clearly shows us that is not what is occurring. But, in John 8:58 when Jesus said “before Abraham was born, I am,” the Jews knew exactly what he was saying. Notice that he says before Abraham was born (using the past tense), and then he switches to the present tense when he says “I am.” Jesus switches tenses of the verbs on purpose, so that when he does so in the context of referencing Abraham, Jesus is clearly drawing the Jews’ attention to the Old Testament Scriptures and then using a present tense form of the verb “to be” by saying “I AM.” Someone who says “I am hungry” is not drawing attention to the Old Testament Scriptures for context.

Jesus was clearly causing the Jews to reflect upon the divine name “I am” that Jesus used for himself. We know that they understood this because as is said above, they said, “You, being a man, make yourself out to be God.” (John 10:33).

It is not necessary that Jesus say a certain phrase in order for the truth of who he is to be made clear. The issue is not if he speaks a certain sentence that we construct in present terms in order to satisfy our theological demands. The issue is what did Jesus say in the context and culture of the time in which he spoke.

John 1:1, 14, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God . . . 14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.”

John 20:28-29, "Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”

Heb. 1:8, “But of the Son He says, ‘Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.’”

 

[hasantas]

Sure.

John 20:24-31
24 Now Thomas (also known as Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.”

26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Either Thomas (and John who wrote this Gospel) and all the other disciples who had spent three years living with Jesus were terribly deceived about who was standing before them showing them his wounds, or else Jesus, their friend and our God, was truly risen from the dead.

So where did Jesus say I raised from death? Jesus just say you have seen me so you have believed. There is no any statement about wounds but that opinion was belong to Thomas.

 

[Randy_Carson]

So where did Jesus say I raised from death? Jesus just say you have seen me so you have believed. There is no any statement about wounds but that opinion was belong to Thomas.

Jesus was a prophet, wasn’t he? And prophets are tested by examining whether their prophecies come true, aren’t they?

Jesus prophesied:

Luke 9:21-23
22 And he said, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”

And

John 11:25
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die.

Jesus was a true prophet who correctly foretold of his own death by crucifixion as well as his resurrection of the third day.

God did not whisk Jesus away into heaven, force someone else to die in His place, and then begin a great deception of His own followers.

 

[Moro_Rock]

“deceived”!

God had became a man and God did not declare that clearly! Which is deception?

Isn’t one of Allah’s names -The Great Deceiver -
considered, by them to be a virtue to deceive the 'Kaffir ’ ? (non Muslim )

 

[hasantas]

And who would be straining then?

Jesus never said the exact three words, “I am God.” But Jesus also never said the exact four words, “I am a prophet,” or the exact four words “I am a man,” but we know he was both a prophet and a man.

It is not necessary for Jesus to say the exact phrase “I am a man,” for us to know that he was a man. Likewise, it is not necessary for Jesus to utter the exact three words “I am God,” in order for us to determine whether or not he is divine. Jesus may not have said the exact sentence “I am God,” but he did claim the divine name for himself (Exo. 3:14 withJohn 8:58), and he also received worship (Matt. 2:2; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:35-38).

There are clear verse which do not require strained interpretations.

24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country. Luke 4

69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God. Luke 22

 

[Moro_Rock]

After all, Creationists do the same thing with science (dinosaurs weren’t real, etc.).

Not true !

 

[hasantas]

Isn’t one of Allah’s names -The Great Deceiver -
considered, by them to be a virtue to deceive the 'Kaffir ’ ? (non Muslim )

No. That is not an attribute.

 

[hasantas]

Jesus was a prophet, wasn’t he? And prophets are tested by examining whether their prophecies come true, aren’t they?

Jesus prophesied:

Luke 9:21-23
22 And he said, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”

And

John 11:25
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die.

Jesus was a true prophet who correctly foretold of his own death by crucifixion as well as his resurrection of the third day.

God did not whisk Jesus away into heaven, force someone else to die in His place, and then begin a great deception of His own followers.

That is right a prophet is always true and Jesus had prophecies about death(maybe crucifixion). But also Jesus prayed God to be saved which demonstrate that it was not a certain case. If a prophet know something will happen ver certainly so they do not resist against will of God. The pray of Jesus prove that it was not a certain case.

 

[Randy_Carson]

There are clear verse which do not require strained interpretations.

24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.

Sure. Jesus was a man, a prophet, a teacher. And God.

It’s not an either-or situation.

Luke 4
69 Hereafter shall the Son of man sit on the right hand of the power of God. Luke 22

Yes! Thank you for pointing out the most obvious example of Jesus revealing His divinity! :clapping:

Jesus claimed to be the Messiah and the Son of God before the Sanhedrin. First, look at what was written by the prophet Daniel:

Daniel 7:13-14
13 “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

We do not worship men, yet Daniel prophesied that the Son of Man would be worshiped as God. And Mark records Jesus applying this prophecy to Himself:

Mark 14:61-65
61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?” They all condemned him as worthy of death.

Finally, we know that the apostle Thomas specifically worshiped Jesus as God (shown in a previous post) thereby fulfilling Daniel’s prophecy that the Son of Man (Jesus) would be worshiped as God.

 

[Randy_Carson]

That is right a prophet is always true and Jesus had prophecies about death(maybe crucifixion). But also Jesus prayed God to be saved which demonstrate that it was not a certain case. If a prophet know something will happen ver certainly so they do not resist against will of God. The pray of Jesus prove that it was not a certain case.

Jesus was fully God AND fully man. This is the mystery of the Incarnation (and what is known as the hypostatic union).

As man, Jesus wept, got angry, was tired, hungry, etc.

Naturally, as a man who was about to undergo the painful ordeal of crucifixion, He wanted to be spared if that were possible.

This is a perfectly understandable human response even if we ponder it in light of His divinity!

 

[Randy_Carson]

And Hasantas-

All of your questions about Jesus still don’t diminish the harsh reality that your religion teaches you that God deceived the followers of Jesus into believing that He had died on the cross.

Does it trouble you at all to think of God doing something like that to those who were the closest friends and family of His prophet, Jesus?

 

[ShrodingersCat]

Not true !

Indeed, it seems I was mistaken. Thanks for the correction.

Then I amend my statement to “Creationists believe dinosaurs roamed the Earth at the same time as humans as little as 6000 years ago and hence believe that science is mistaken”.

 

[MartinJordan]

And Hasantas-

All of your questions about Jesus still don’t diminish the harsh reality that your religion teaches you that God deceived the followers of Jesus into believing that He had died on the cross.

Does it trouble you at all to think of God doing something like that to those who were the closest friends and family of His prophet, Jesus?

God in the Quran specifically targets Christians for being deceived without charity due to no tracing the events that lead to the crucifixion

MJ

 

[Thorolfr]

Does it trouble you at all to think of God doing something like that to those who were the closest friends and family of His prophet, Jesus?

There are all sorts of things in the Bible, too, that God has done that I would think would trouble many Christians. For example, in 1 Samuel 15, God tells Saul to commit genocide by killing all of the Amalekites including women, children and infants. Even animals are not spared:

15 Samuel said to Saul, “The Lord sent me to anoint you king over his people Israel; now therefore listen to the words of the Lord. 2 Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did in opposing the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt. 3 Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

Or in Leviticus 25:44-46, God allows the Israelites to keep slaves as property and for their children to inherit their slaves:

44 As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. 45 You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; **and they may be your property. 46 You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property. **

 

[MartinJordan]

Jesus was fully God AND fully man. This is the mystery of the Incarnation (and what is known as the hypostatic union).

As man, Jesus wept, got angry, was tired, hungry, etc.

Naturally, as a man who was about to undergo the painful ordeal of crucifixion, He wanted to be spared if that were possible.

This is a perfectly understandable human response even if we ponder it in light of His divinity!

There is actually no mystery when Jesus’ asking his Father to take the cup of suffering away from him. Hasantas again fails to complete Jesus’ words when he was praying.

Matthew 26 : 9 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

40 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Couldn’t you men keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter. 41 “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

42 He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father,** if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done**.”

43 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44 So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

45 Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, “Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour has come, and the Son of Man is delivered into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!”

So the Father has willed it. That his Son to be handed over.

No way to deny this anymore. (To Hasantas)

MJ

 

[drac16]

I disagree. My perspective is that if we can trust what the Qur’an says about the Companions of The Cave and Dhul-Qarnayn, then we can trust what it says about Jesus [peace be upon him]. Both of those stories are in surah 18 of the Qur’an. The story of the people of the Cave was unknown to the arabs, but not only did Muhammad [peace be upon him] accurately retell the story, he also derived the highest spiritual truths in it (in that it was a sign of the Day of Judgment, as it says in surah 18:21).

He didn’t just make it up. The revelation of the Companions of the Cave came only after several days of silence (after the jews challenged him on it). If Muhammad was simply making it up, he would’ve given an answer about the Companions of the Cave and Dhul-Qarnayn right away. He gave an answer only after several days, which is when the revelation of those stories was given to him. That is proof that he was not getting his revelations from his own mind.

Yes, I admit that the earliest historical sources says that Jesus was crucified, but I trust the Qur’an’s history above and beyond all historical sources. If Jesus was crucified, then yeah, there’s no reason to be a muslim. If he wasn’t, there is every reason to be a muslim.

 

[MartinJordan]

I disagree. My perspective is that if we can trust what the Qur’an says about the Companions of The Cave and Dhul-Qarnayn, then we can trust what it says about Jesus [peace be upon him]. Both of those stories are in surah 18 of the Qur’an. The story of the people of the Cave was unknown to the arabs, but not only did Muhammad [peace be upon him] accurately retell the story, he also derived the highest spiritual truths in it (in that it was a sign of the Day of Judgment, as it says in surah 18:21).

He didn’t just make it up. The revelation of the Companions of the Cave came only after several days of silence (after the jews challenged him on it). If Muhammad was simply making it up, he would’ve given an answer about the Companions of the Cave and Dhul-Qarnayn right away. He gave an answer only after several days, which is when the revelation of those stories was given to him. That is proof that he was not getting his revelations from his own mind.

Yes, I admit that the earliest historical sources says that Jesus was crucified, but I trust the Qur’an’s history above and beyond all historical sources. If Jesus was crucified, then yeah, there’s no reason to be a muslim. If he wasn’t, there is every reason to be a muslim.

Please state the names of the Companions and the name of the Emperor according to the Quran. And what was their religion during the Emperor then.

Quran can’t even trace the crucifixion events though.

MJ

 

[drac16]

Please state the names of the Companions and the name of the Emperor according to the Quran. And what was their religion during the Emperor then.

Quran can’t even trace the crucifixion events though.

MJ

It doesn’t say what their names are. Before they hid in the cave, Paganism was the normative religion in their area.