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Techno2000
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Everybody’s resurrection is spiritual.
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MartinJordan
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Yes. Meanwhile it must be said that supporting the Quran then at the same time the Quran denies Jesus was indeed killed makes it clear that claiming things after the fact is Theologically improper.
MJ
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JMM1957
Guest
Yes, Jesus gave up his spirit to the Father upon death on the cross, but to prove that who he said he was, the Son of God, the Messiah, he rose from the dead physically on the third day (after death) just as he had predicted he would. The empty tomb and the appearances to his disciples after the third day proves beyond doubt that Jesus was who he claimed to be. It is Jesus whom we acknowledge and follow for our salvation, not any other prophet afterwards.
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JimmyDFG
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Did you recommend this book because Todd Lawson himself is part of the baha’i community?
bahaiteachings.org/author/todd-lawson
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arthra
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Jimmy I’m going to post a source for you so you can understand how the verse in Sirih 4:157 can be translated:
corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=157
Hopefully you’ll see the issue as I’ve tried to explain it for you…
The Arabic word in question is
**(4:157:15)
**
So over the centuries there have been various views on the verse and the book “The Crucifixion and the Qur’an” I referenced for your further study is not a Baha’i book. The author Todd Larson is an Associate Professor at the Department of Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations at the University of Toronto.
Hope this helps!
corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=157
Hopefully you’ll see the issue as I’ve tried to explain it for you…
The Arabic word in question is
**(4:157:15)
**
Code:
[shubbiha](http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=$bh#%284:157:15%29)
it was made to appear (so) [corpus.quran.com/images/nav-previous.png](http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=%284:157:14%29) [corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=12981](http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=4&verse=157#%284:157:15%29) [corpus.quran.com/images/nav-next.png](http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=%284:157:16%29)Hope this helps!
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JimmyDFG
Guest
I’ve seen and read that site before. I’ll say this again… in 4:157 what I’m referring to is the “nor did they crucify him”. The word “crucify” means "put (someone) to death " . This would mean he was not put in the position of death in the first place. For in Luke 23:21 "but they continued their shouting, “Crucify him! Crucify him!” Everyone knows that this lead up to his death on the cross “Crucify him” equals put him to death. So therefore it should read “nor did they put him to death”Jimmy I’m going to post a source for you so you can understand how the verse in Sirih 4:157 can be translated:
corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=4&verse=157
Hopefully you’ll see the issue as I’ve tried to explain it for you…
The Arabic word in question is
**(4:157:15)
**
So over the centuries there have been various views on the verse and the book “The Crucifixion and the Qur’an” I referenced for your further study is not a Baha’i book. The author Todd Larson is an Associate Professor at the Department of Near and Middle Eastern Civilizations at the University of Toronto.Code:[shubbiha](http://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=$bh#%284:157:15%29) it was made to appear (so) [corpus.quran.com/images/nav-previous.png](http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=%284:157:14%29) [corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=12981](http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=4&verse=157#%284:157:15%29) [corpus.quran.com/images/nav-next.png](http://corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=%284:157:16%29)
Hope this helps!
Furthermore another point I’ll like to make is that would non-Christian Jews call Jesus “Christ” (i.e. “Messiah”), for they reject Jesus as the Messiah. Similarly, very few non-Christian Jews would call Jesus “the Messenger of Allah.” Moreover, no Jew who believes that Jesus is the Messiah would boast about crucifying him.
I thank you for the recommendation of the book but I see it as trying to iron out the wrinkles of the misconception islam has about the Crucifixion. Especially after reading the description of the book I see the sentence " which suggest that the origins of the denial may lie within the Christian Church". I understand that Todd Lawson specializes in mystical quranic exegesis, shiism, and sufism, and he is part of the baha’i community.
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MartinJordan
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Good analysis Jimmy. Unfortunately that statement alone is not convincing. Does Todd Lawson follow it up with some analysis and references? Which Christian Church would it be also?
MJ
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JMM1957
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So ultimately, did God save Jesus from death on the cross then?
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arthra
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Jimmy,
I think it’s important to consider the view of martyrdom in the Qur’an… Jesus would certainly be the model of martyrdom…
Consider Surih 2:154
And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: “They are dead.” Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.
The verse focuses on the reality of the spirit of the martyr who was slain! The spirit is living.
The same can be said in my view to the Surih 4:157… while the corporeal body was crucified the Spirit of Jesus was not killed…
The other important point to remember is that those who were involved in crucifying Jesus believed they had “killed” the Messiah…
*That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”
*So it appeared to them but the Spirit was not killed…
I think it’s important to consider the view of martyrdom in the Qur’an… Jesus would certainly be the model of martyrdom…
Consider Surih 2:154
And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: “They are dead.” Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not.
The verse focuses on the reality of the spirit of the martyr who was slain! The spirit is living.
The same can be said in my view to the Surih 4:157… while the corporeal body was crucified the Spirit of Jesus was not killed…
The other important point to remember is that those who were involved in crucifying Jesus believed they had “killed” the Messiah…
*That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”
*So it appeared to them but the Spirit was not killed…
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JimmyDFG
Guest
I don’t think martyrdom would be the right word to use. You might of heard Jesus being called “The Lamb of God”. In the Gospels, Jesus is specifically identified as “the lamb of God” in the sense of both the sacrificial offering for sin and the suffering servant. As John the Baptist was proclaiming the coming of the Messiah at the River Jordan, he saw Jesus and proclaimed, John 1:29"…“Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”
Compare John 1:29 to 2:154 of the quran ( mind you the chapter al-baqarah contains several verses dealing with the subject of warfare.)So being put to death for our salvation is be no means comparable to being “slain in the way of allah”
As I pointed out before would Jews call Jesus “Christ” (“Messiah”), because they reject Jesus as the Messiah.
I also noticed …a coincidence or not in 4:157 " Jesus, the son of Mary" In numerous cases in the quran is how muslims refer Jesus as being
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JMM1957
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I’m coming along here late in the discussion, but in response to the OP, I reject the Qur’an based on one particular Bible verse (not the only one) which states in Galatians 1:8, “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!” Since Muhammad claimed to get revelations (the Qur’an) from the angel Gabriel which contradicts Biblical scripture written 500 years earlier, we know that the revelations Muhammad claimed to have received must be brought into question.
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MartinJordan
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JimmyDFG
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When I looked up the word “shubbiha” I found a source as meaning “spirits”, “ghosts”, “shadows”, or “apparitions”
If one takes the “shubbiha” as meaning resemblance. The resemblance of Jesus being placed on another, then this refers to the people who boasted, it was made to appear to them (the people who boasted that hey had killed him)
Or if someone was to understand it in another way, meaning doubts, that the Jews are full of doubt and have no certainty as to what happened.
Either way…this would be deceitful on allahs part. Why would allah cause doubt?
Does God cause doubt on any of His people?
If we look at the life of Jesus, he did not cause doubt on people …or anything in his teachings for that matter.
In 4:157 it states " the messenger of allah". It is in islam and also muslims that says Jesus is only a prophet, and prophets are the messengers of allah.
In John 10:30-33 and 36
30 The Father and I are one.”
31The Jews again picked up rocks to stone him.
32Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from my Father. For which of these are you trying to stone me?”
…
36 can you say that the one whom the Father has consecrated and sent into the world blasphemes because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
So what should it be in 4:157 of the quran “the messenger of allah” or “the Son of God”?
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JimmyDFG
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Thank you very much Martin!!Yes. absolutely.
Great work again Jimmy. Great points and analysis being made!
MJ
The more I look and think about it, the more inconsistent I see
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arthra
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Jimmy the word is
(4:157:15)
shubbiha
it was made to appear (so)
corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(4:157:15
meaning it appeared to them that they had killed the Messiah… or destroyed His Cause… We know this was not the case…
The translations have nothing about ghosts or spirits… It’s a verb.
(4:157:15)
shubbiha
it was made to appear (so)
corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(4:157:15
meaning it appeared to them that they had killed the Messiah… or destroyed His Cause… We know this was not the case…
The translations have nothing about ghosts or spirits… It’s a verb.
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arthra
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My dear JMM1957,
If you sincerely believe what you wrote then how do you account for the following verses in the Gospel of Luke:
*1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
and1:26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth, 1:27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.
Gabriel is viewed as a personification of the Holy Spirit:
“The angel Gabriel, the Holy Spirit, is the highest of all the angels. It is his duty to write down the decrees of God; through him the Koran was revealed to Mahommad, and it is he who, hovering above the throne of God, shelters it with his wings. Hafiz therefore claims for Shiraz the protection of him who is guardian of the highest place in heaven.”
Code:
(Islamic Miscellaneous, Teachings of Hafiz (G. L. Bell tr))command. Thou knowest not, ere this, what “the Book” was, or what the faith.
But we have ordained it for a light: by it will we guide whom we please of our
servants. And thou shalt surely guide into the right way,
Code:
(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 42:51 - Counsel)In the Gospel of Mark the personification is a “dove”:
1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 1:11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
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Vico
Guest
In the Catechism the dove is called the form of the Holy Spirit. In Christianity, God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, are persons (but never separate).
701 The dove. At the end of the flood, whose symbolism refers to Baptism, a dove released by Noah returns with a fresh olive-tree branch in its beak as a sign that the earth was again habitable.58 When Christ comes up from the water of his baptism, the Holy Spirit, in the form of a dove, comes down upon him and remains with him.59 The Spirit comes down and remains in the purified hearts of the baptized. In certain churches, the Eucharist is reserved in a metal receptacle in the form of a dove (columbarium) suspended above the altar. Christian iconography traditionally uses a dove to suggest the Spirit.
Matthew 17, describes the Transfiguration of Jesus, with Moses and Elias, with the shining cloud. And at both at the Baptism in the Jordan and the Transfiguration, the voice from God the Father:
1 Six days afterwards Jesus took Peter and James and his brother John with him, and led them up on to a high mountain where they were alone. 2 And he was transfigured in their presence, his face shining like the sun, and his garments becoming white as snow; 3 and all at once they had sight of Moses and Elias conversing with him. 4 Then Peter said aloud to Jesus, Lord, it is well that we should be here; if it pleases thee, let us make three arbours in this place, one for thee, one for Moses and one for Elias. 5 Even before he had finished speaking, a shining cloud overshadowed them. And now, there was a voice which said to them out of the cloud, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; to him, then, listen. 6 The disciples, when they heard it, fell on their faces, overcome with fear; 7 but Jesus came near and roused them with his touch; Arise, he said, do not be afraid. 8 And they lifted up their eyes, and saw no man there but Jesus only.
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hasantas
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It is said that someone else was crucified instead of Jesus. So Jesus should had been saved before crucifixion.
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hasantas
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If Jesus knew what would happen so He should not had emptied Himself absolutely! Jesus made many prophecies and performed many miracles so that prove that He was not actually emptied. If Jesus was God and He was aware of that so why did He go to Sajdah(kneeled down)? And İf He went to crucifixion by His will so why Jesus was so willing to be saved? And if Jesus is god so why He worshiped God(kneeled down and prayed) ? Do God worship God?
Do you not see the conflictions?
Jesus did not go on crucifixion so He would not say that " I escaped from crucifixion"!
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hasantas
Guest
Wheh Jesus prayed Father for something so Father was used to accept that. Jesus prayed for salvation from crucifixion so Father would accept, would not?
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