If There Is No Heaven Will You Still Love God?

  • Thread starter Thread starter benedictus2
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Bruno_Schulz said:
Definitely not so! This way we couldn’t earn heaven, for we’d do something to get paid for. Never and no way!

I love people NOT because I earn heaven for it, but for a very simple other reason.

It’s simply wonderful to be loved by others. And you only can be loved by others, if you love them first!

This you can do only then, when you love God. For when you love God, you automatically live in a inner joy. This inner joy you pass on to others, by being friendly in a true and loving way.

I just had a mail by an American friend about that theme and he wrote:
"We have been seriously repressed by certain of our citizenry. Protestantism has a major player in that regard, always frowning on everything enjoyable. So, as time has passed, we have turned to caution, rather than be our true, happy selves."

**When I was in the USA I noticed a strange rebuff. At first “how nice to meet you” but then turning away. The whole week in a hotel, people hardly spoke to me or each other, as they find every stranger suspicious. Caution instead of love, and disinterest in others. Missing the before mentioned “being friendly in a true and loving way”. **

See my signature below.
Click to expand...
I am addressing the points I highlighted above because I think this proves that the question is not stupid at all.

If you love others because God loved you first and that when you love God you have this inner joy, then obviously you are speaking from experience.

You have felt God’s love and you have loved Him back because once you have been loved by God and become truly aware of that love there just is no way for you not to return that love.

So therefore, feeling as you do now about God, would you no longer love Him should it be that after you have experienced all that joy, all that love on this earth He should decide in His wisdom that that is all the joy that you will know.

Would you stop loving Him if you are not destined to live with Him in eternity? Isn’t His love for you right now enough for you to love Him back?

If you were to find out tomorrow that oblivion is what awaits you at death, would you then start being selfish and look out only after yourself?
 
benedictus2 said:
If you were to find out tomorrow that oblivion is what awaits you at death, would you then start being selfish and look out only after yourself?
**But the will to live is not selfishness. It’s the God-given love for existence, existence being a gift-a good- the rejection of which would in fact be evil.
**
Click to expand...
 
**Dear Benediktus, I fear you quoted me wrongly, for I did not say: „I love others because God loved me first and when I love God, I have this inner joy“

But I said and I wrote down my experience in saying so:
a) It’s wonderful to be loved by others.
b) You only can be loved by others, if you love them first!
c) You can do so only then, when you love God.

Now „the reward“ comes in:
d) For when you love God, you automatically live in an inner joy.
e) This inner joy you pass on to others, by being friendly in a true and loving way.

We love God, because we know, as Jesus told us, that God loves us and the whole Bible is a single word of love. Reading this, and you can’t but love God.

And yes; the question remains silly:
“Would you no longer love God… if He should decide that that is all the joy that you will know?”
Silly, for then Jesus salvation would have been a senseless act. The idea itself is sinful, for the whole Old Testament points at the salvation though Jesus Christ - through the love of God.

As we know, that: “God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life” –
any question in the way of; “what if that wouldn’t be so?" would, in this very holy coherencies” be plain stupid. That’s flat.
**
 
fhansen said:
But the will to live is not selfishness. It’s the God-given love for existence, existence being a gift-a good- the rejection of which would in fact be evil.
Click to expand...
Yes, but the will to live is not what is in question here. It is not a question of choosing non-existence but rather that non-existence is the end of life that is completely outside of your choice.

The question is if there is no eternal life not that if you can choose between eternal life and nihiliation.
 
Bruno_Schulz said:
**Dear Benediktus, I fear you quoted me wrongly, for I did not say: „I love others because God loved me first and when I love God, I have this inner joy“ **

**But I said and I wrote down my experience in saying so: **
a) It’s wonderful to be loved by others.
b) You only can be loved by others, if you love them first!
**c) You can do so only then, when you love God. **

**Now „the reward“ comes in: **
**d) For when you love God, you automatically live in an inner joy. **
**e) This inner joy you pass on to others, by being friendly in a true and loving way. **

We love God, because we know, as Jesus told us, that God loves us and the whole Bible is a single word of love. Reading this, and you can’t but love God.

And yes; the question remains silly:
“Would you no longer love God… if He should decide that that is all the joy that you will know?”
Silly, for then Jesus salvation would have been a senseless act. The idea itself is sinful, for the whole Old Testament points at the salvation though Jesus Christ - through the love of God.

**As we know, that: “God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life” – **
any question in the way of; “what if that wouldn’t be so?" would, in this very holy coherencies” be plain stupid. That’s flat.
Click to expand...
That is why the question is a “what if” because it is excluding that aspect of Divine Revelation that salvation means eternal life.

If you go through the Summa Theologica there are questions that may seem stupid but which great Theologians like Aquinas grappled with.

One such question was if Adam and Eve had not sinned would Christ sitll have come?

Now you would probably say that is a stupid question because Adam and Eve did sin and yet St Thomas considered that a valid enough question.

And since as you have pointed out above, you can only love others when you love God (which I completely agree with but I am sure others will disagree e.g. the atheists),** the question is why do you love God?** Is it because of the reward of Eternal Life or is it because you love him for Himself alone.

If you love Him for Himself alone then you therefore love Him regardless of whether you go to heaven or end in nothing.

The act of contrition says it so well: We are sorry for our sins not because we dread the loss of heaven, not because we fear the pains of hell, but because we have offended Him.
 
doing good doesn’t get you into heaven.

Ephesians 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
 
Ben is aware that many of the questions raised in the Summa were raised not as questions by St Thomas himself but questions he knew would eventually be raised by others and would need to be addressed. Just as the Question that is the subject of this thread, Ben knows it is not the case but for many people viewing it, it holds value for the discussion. I myself am very supprised at some off the points made and found it of great interest. Thanks again Ben…
 
What an interesting question…

I would love Him. The best things I learned in this life had to do ith Jesus. I learn something about Him all the time and I never tire of it.

My greatest gift was my child, who I thank God for everyday.

So… even though I am not worthy of Him… I still love him.

Even if this life was it,Yeah… I would still love Him.
 
Stjudeprayforus said:
What an interesting question…

I would love Him. The best things I learned in this life had to do ith Jesus. I learn something about Him all the time and I never tire of it.

My greatest gift was my child, who I thank God for everyday.

So… even though I am not worthy of Him… I still love him.

Even if this life was it,Yeah… I would still love Him.
Click to expand...
I think that is wonderful!:amen:
 
**
benedictus2 said:
One such question was if Adam and Eve had not sinned would Christ still have come?
Click to expand...
If first humans had not sinned, their descendants would, as symbolized in the metaphor Kain and Abel.
Let’s not go further into “metaphor or fact” as both is right.

The influence of Satan always had been allowed by God as result of God’s absolute justness. Otherwise Satan would have argued - they had no temptation, so, how could they sin?!

Since God is Lord of all - heaven hell and earth, and since God is love itself, he was with His creature MAN and did His tremendous salvation works.

Now we the other day had the discussion: “How about justice towards hell then, why didn’t God save Satan then too?! Satan could claim that. Couldn’t he?”

Well the answer is simple:
Satan and his legions saw God from face to face, and he rebelled and sinned against God in spite. We do not see God. Satan didn’t have to believe there is God – we do have to believe and don’t see.
Not even Moses was allowed to see God from face to face. Satan did before he sinned. So, Satan was condemned forever.

We are redeemed by Jesus Christ - but might we always remember, there’s no automatism.
Strict condition remains: Remorse, repentance and redemption.

**
 
**A friend just said: “You say God was with His creature MAN.
But Satan too was God’s creature”.

I must correct this wrong attitude:
NO! Satan is not God’s creature. Satan was created as angel with free will, and he saw God from face to face.
But Satan stood up against God, and he and his legion was faught, and Satan was condemned in eternity.

Match Revelation 12:7-9
“And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.”**
 
Bruno_Schulz said:
**

I must correct this wrong attitude:
NO! Satan is not God’s creature**. Satan was created as angel "
Click to expand...
I’m sorry for butting in, but you just said that Satan is not Gods creature; but then you say that God created Lucifer.

Do you not see the contradiction that you have just made?

Perhaps you mean that Satan is Gods enemy and is therefore not of God in the moral sense. However; existentially speaking, any being that is created is Gods creature; good or evil.
 
**I know what you mean; but it remains NO.
God did of course not create Lucifer. I NEVER said as you suggest: “that God created Lucifer”.

God created an Angel. One of a countless number. The one Angel we later called “Lucifer” after the Morning-Star (that name does not appear in the Bible – there named Satan) rebelled together with his legions, against God. As we know of revelation, this Angel lost his war against God, and he was send to the also by God created hell; a place or being simply very far away from heaven - see Luke 16,26.

So Satan, a former Angel, was of course not created as Satan, but he himself became finally Satan as he rebelled against God. God never created anything bad!

Let’s match this with a good mother, who raised her son well and to Gods will. This son later becomes a murderer. Now: This mother never gave birth to a murderer, but to a child who loved God and was loved by God. But in his adulthood he decided for the worse and MADE HIMSELF a murderer.

Alike; Satan MADE HIMSELF to Satan by changing from good to bad as he had the free will to do so. He of course wasn’t created as Satan, but created as a good Angel.

We simply can not claim:
“Any being that is created is Gods creature; good or evil”
for God NEVER created anything evil. Luke 17,1: "Evil will inevitably occur, but woe to those through whom they occur.”
**
 
Honestly???

On this one I have to go with Ayn Rand , the atheist. :o

Can we love in a vacuum ?

No.

Love without motive?

It just ain’t so.

somehow this reminds me of the assertion some parents make, " I love all my children equally . "
anyone who has been the child of a parent with other siblings knows it isn’t so.

Or the assertion, " I’m honest. I never lie. "
:rotfl:

Ok, so maybe you really don’t care about heaven in particular … you are getting SOMETHING out of it.
Which, of course, brings us right back to motive.

I SUSPECT ( I could be wrong ) this looks suspiciously like Nihilism. subtle to be sure, elegant, but Nihilism.

It’s all beside the point, I’m not a John Lennon christian ; i.e. " Imagine there’s no heaven, no Hell below us, above us only sky. "
I DON’T think that’s a poetic image, I think it’s a nightmare.
" Living for today " Sharks and dogs and ants already live that way. are they to be my models of virtue?
 
Athough Bruno has some difficulty with english translation which I certainly can understand, I think all he is saying is that all Angels, athough totally spiritual beings created by God, did have their own will to choose. Satan chose to follow his pride and defy God which in itself was the birth of evil. But God did not create an evil spiritual being or angel and a good spiritual being or angel as such. They all were created equally to themselves.
 
**I still don’t understand what Kesa is saying, and anyhow find terribly hypothetic to ask “what if constellations where other then they are”. Let me still put some thoughts to it if I may:
None of us can say he would love God all the same, if there’d be no heaven. Who does, is not honest. Human nature is not good for itself and secondly; if there’d be no heaven, there’d be no being of God, for God is not “nowhere”, as He is omnipresent and heaven Jesus told us about. If heaven wouldn’t be, people would live for selfishness only.

To imagine “what would be if there’d be no heaven” is like asking what would be if we would not be.

The reason why we love God is, we know there is God. Whoever KNOWS there is GOD, knows what God did, realizes all God did, is obviously done out of love.

Who knows there is God, knows that he is never alone, because God is with him.

Now; - I keep saying KNOW instead of BELIEVE, because if a friend tells you something, you don’t just believe, but know. Adding the fact, that if you do believe, the New Testament is very logical to you and very touching and very “private”. I mean - it addresses you personally, as if written for you - or if it’d be a direct message individually for you.

The core element of the whole New Testament is that privacy - as if God himself speaks directly to you - IF - and that’s important, IF one opens himself to God, and never approaches the New Testament sceptical with silly questions like; “that can’t be so”. As Jesus puts it: Embrace like a Child.

When people do not understand and doubt, they glide into a dangerous search for a alleged missing ‘substance’ they can grab. A danger they get into quite reckless, without any need, just because they want more proof, then what God already gave us. This proves, than we simply refuse to believe, before we understand fully. We will however NEVER understand God. As soon as we realize that, we get a big step nearer to God.

We can not add nor subtract elements of the gospel; elements of Gods being. We have to lovingly accept what Jesus revealed about Gods being, and about Gods love. If we do so, our soul is widened and made to understand a lot more than what reason could ever bring. Not to understand God Himself, but apprehend the being of God; the existence of the all embracing love of God. Then we reached the point, where we can’t other but love God with all our being.

Therefore the question “would you love God if there’d be no heaven” is pointless. If there’d be anything of the New Testament missing, the whole New Testament would be corrupt. This is not the case, because the Holy Bible is not mans-work but inspired and controlled by the Holy Spirit (Pentecost).

That’s why everyone of us, be he educated, academic or a child - understands as much as he needs to be a child of God, as God addresses everyone of us who is willing to listen in his own language - see Acts 1,19

An atheist loves what loves him. His wife, child, mother, money, possession etc. but not God.

Christians love God. For God IS in heaven and with us – any time, til the end of time - as Jesus told us.**
 
kesa82 said:
Honestly???

On this one I have to go with Ayn Rand , the atheist. :o

Can we love in a vacuum ?

No.

Love without motive?

It just ain’t so.

somehow this reminds me of the assertion some parents make, " I love all my children equally . "
anyone who has been the child of a parent with other siblings knows it isn’t so.

Or the assertion, " I’m honest. I never lie. "
:rotfl:

Ok, so maybe you really don’t care about heaven in particular … you are getting SOMETHING out of it.
Which, of course, brings us right back to motive.
**I SUSPECT ( I could be wrong ) this looks suspiciously like Nihilism. subtle to be sure, elegant, but Nihilism. **
It’s all beside the point, I’m not a John Lennon christian ; i.e. " Imagine there’s no heaven, no Hell below us, above us only sky. "
I DON’T think that’s a poetic image, I think it’s a nightmare.
" Living for today " Sharks and dogs and ants already live that way. are they to be my models of virtue?
Click to expand...
Which is the whole point of the question.** WHAT IF **the end for us is nihilism? Would you still love God.

Let us say you that you say that you love God now. IF you should find out tomorrow that there is no after life, would you stop loving God then?
 
Bruno_Schulz said:
If first humans had not sinned, their descendants would, as symbolized in the metaphor Kain and Abel.
Let’s not go further into “metaphor or fact” as both is right.

The influence of Satan always had been allowed by God as result of God’s absolute justness. Otherwise Satan would have argued - they had no temptation, so, how could they sin?!

**Since God is Lord of all - heaven hell and earth, and since God is love itself, he was with His creature MAN and did His tremendous salvation works. **

Now we the other day had the discussion: “How about justice towards hell then, why didn’t God save Satan then too?! Satan could claim that. Couldn’t he?”

Well the answer is simple:
**Satan and his legions saw God from face to face, and he rebelled and sinned against God in spite. We do not see God. Satan didn’t have to believe there is God – we do have to believe and don’t see. **
**Not even Moses was allowed to see God from face to face. Satan did before he sinned. So, Satan was condemned forever. **

**We are redeemed by Jesus Christ - but might we always remember, there’s no automatism. **
**Strict condition remains: Remorse, repentance and redemption. **
Click to expand...
But this answer does not address the validity of the question. The only point I am trying to make in citing this question in the Summa is that pondering questions outside of Divine revelation is a valid exercise.

Also, you did not answer my question as to why you love God.

Why do you love God. Is it because of the promise of Heaven or do you love Him just for Himself alone. That is why I asked you before, IF you should find out tomorrow that there is no afterlife, would you stop loving Him.

But please bear in mind this is an IF so you cannot say “but we know that there is afterlife because of Divine Revelation.”

I think this is what some people overlook in this discussion. This IF.
 
kesa82 said:
Honestly???

On this one I have to go with Ayn Rand , the atheist. :o

Can we love in a vacuum ?

No.

Love without motive?

It just ain’t so.

somehow this reminds me of the assertion some parents make, " I love all my children equally . "
anyone who has been the child of a parent with other siblings knows it isn’t so.

Or the assertion, " I’m honest. I never lie. "
:rotfl:

Ok, so maybe you really don’t care about heaven in particular … you are getting SOMETHING out of it.
Which, of course, brings us right back to motive.

I SUSPECT ( I could be wrong ) this looks suspiciously like Nihilism. subtle to be sure, elegant, but Nihilism.

It’s all beside the point, I’m not a John Lennon christian ; i.e. " Imagine there’s no heaven, no Hell below us, above us only sky. "
I DON’T think that’s a poetic image, I think it’s a nightmare.
" Living for today " Sharks and dogs and ants already live that way. are they to be my models of virtue?
Click to expand...
Of course we can - I love the colour purple - what am I getting out of that??? It is of no benefit to me to love it or not love it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top