If There Is No Heaven Will You Still Love God?

[Snerticus]

that caught my attention - that question. thx for your peace too,. If there was no heaven there’d be no God because God is heaven, heaven is God. When in grace we have God within us and that means heaven is within us. God is in us in the form of grace and we can’t do any good without Gods grace. So to my reckoning I would not be capable of loving God if there was no heaven because I would have no grace.

I’m not a theologian or philosopher though. Do you think this makes sense?

God bless all:thumbsup:

It kind of does make sense, but heaven was not available to us until Jesus’ death and Resurrection. So maybe the question does make sense if you look at it that way. Before the Resurrection, there was no heaven. At least not as a realistic goal. Yet the Israelites still believed in God.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Heaven is not a place, it’s a person. Since that person Jesus is God, the answer is no, i would not love Jesus if i knew He did not exist.

That sounded as if i knew about what i was talking. This better reflects my opinion:

Perhaps heaven is not so much a place as it is a person? If heaven really is to exist in Jesus’ presence, then the answer might be, "No, it would irrational to love heaven if one knew heaven did not exist, for it would be irrational to love Jesus if one knew Jesus did not exist.

 

[Snerticus]

Contrition is different than fear. I asked can fear and love coexist - not can contrition and love coexist? Contrition is a part of love in my opinion. True fear of the Lord and contrition spring from the same reality. Contrition that springs from “fear of hell” IS NOT real Contrition …ie - Love. Therefore “fear of hell” and love CANNOT coexist - while “fear of the Lord” springs from love - thus real contrition. Running to confession out of a fear of punishment is not real contrition.

I will never love God out of fear of punishment. That kind of fear cannot coexist with real love.

Does a child still love his parents after he gets scolded or smacked on the bottom? Maybe not immediately because he’s too busy crying. But after all is said and done, of course he does.

Fear of going to Hell is certainly not an ideal, but it’s the first step. Parents need some control over their children until they realize that there is more to love than fear.

Not only that, but if you listen to Scott Hahn, you might just understand that Hell itself springs from the Mercy and Love of God. It’s pretty interesting stuff, not at all something you could put together and understand by yourself. But when you hear it spelled out, it certainly makes a lot of sense.

 

[jkiernan56]

Does a child still love his parents after he gets scolded or smacked on the bottom? Maybe not immediately because he’s too busy crying. But after all is said and done, of course he does.

Fear of going to Hell is certainly not an ideal, but it’s the first step. Parents need some control over their children until they realize that there is more to love than fear.

Not only that, but if you listen to Scott Hahn, you might just understand that Hell itself springs from the Mercy and Love of God. It’s pretty interesting stuff, not at all something you could put together and understand by yourself. But when you hear it spelled out, it certainly makes a lot of sense.

A child who avoids disobeying their parents because of fear IS NOT acting out of love. That is also not the scriptural understanding of true “fear of the Lord” which is motivated by love rather than fear of punishment and pain.

Rather lthan listen to Scott Hahn as you suggest, I prefer to listen to St. John - “In love there can be no fear. Perfect love casts out all fear”. Fear will NEVER motivate me to love God. That kind of fear CANNOT coexist with love. Fear and pain may help me to STOP doing something, but it will never motivate me to START doing what is good. Only love can do that for me.

 

[Snerticus]

A child who avoids disobeying their parents because of fear IS NOT acting out of love. That is also not the scriptural understanding of true “fear of the Lord” which is motivated by love rather than fear of punishment and pain.

I beg to differ, there are many meanings of “fear of the Lord”. But forget that for a second…

Now wait, you keep changing your story. First you say “fear and love cannot coexist”, then you change it to "‘fear of hell’ and love cannot coexist, and now you’re saying disobeying out of fear is not acting out of love. Which I presume to mean “disobeying out of fear” and “acting out of love” cannot coexist.

“Acting out of love” is not “love”, just like “fear of hell” is not “fear”.

In your original post, you didn’t specify anything…you simply said fear and love cannot coexist. No wonder you keep arguing, you keep changing your statements to match your side of the argument.:whacky:

It’s like someone told me once when I was arguing with him, “you’re always going to win, so why bother”. Basically then, it’s no use arguing. Now I understand how that guy felt when he said that.

… or better yet put…

:slapfight: ( I really like this, I think it’s cute, but I think they need one that just has one person slapping the other silly.)

Rather lthan listen to Scott Hahn as you suggest, I prefer to listen to St. John - “In love there can be no fear. Perfect love casts out all fear”. Fear will NEVER motivate me to love God. That kind of fear CANNOT coexist with love. Fear and pain may help me to STOP doing something, but it will never motivate me to START doing what is good. Only love can do that for me.

You don’t have to listen to Scott Hahn if you don’t want. No one is holding a gun to your head. Oh wait, that won’t make you listen to him either. Never mind.

You keep saying cannot as if it’s written in stone, impossible. It is possible. *Very *possible. God is full of seeming contradiction. You just need to understand it properly. And I seriously doubt you’ve never done good because of fear and pain. That too, is impossible. At some point in your life, from birth until now, I’ll bet you can find at least one example.

But even if I came up with some really good examples, you’d dispute them and change what you originally said so you could win yet another argument. So it’s no use giving you examples because you’ll just change your story to tidily fit your side.

Sooo…

Believe what you want. Just don’t expect me to.

 

[Snerticus]

… and yes, I still love God, even for these little arguments!

In the end I will have still gained something, even if it’s a dose of humility.

God Bless,
Snert

 

[twb1621]

Actually that is what someone else said to me. That is why I said that this is hypothetical.

I think the question goes to the heart of the act of contrition: 'not because I fear hell or dread the loss of heaven, but because I have offended you Oh My God".

Can we love Him if there is no reward of Heaven or the punishment of hell.

Can we love Him just because He is God? For the simple reason that we have been created and given a chance to share in His Love even if this is just on this earth?

Hey Ben, let me say it this way… For some of us there will be no Heaven. Hard to imagine that… I spent my time (too long) separated from practicing my faith and lived a life I used to say I had no regrets with. I always believed there was a God and just didn’t go any further than doing what I thought was right. Since my realization and return to God, I have also found how loving He truly is not only to accept me back but to C A R E for me and look after me, just as the birds never hunger as the scripture says. I now devote my life to Him, all that I was (wasn’t much) and all that I am and will be as His servant should I be so blessed. For whatever debts I may owe when the time comes, I accept from Him what He determines and if I don’t get to paradise I will have loved Him for all the love He has given me, heaven or no heaven, but I will remain faithful to Him to the end with His grace.

 

[Snerticus]

Hey Ben, let me say it this way… For some of us there will be no Heaven. Hard to imagine that… I spent my time (too long) separated from practicing my faith and lived a life I used to say I had no regrets with. I always believed there was a God and just didn’t go any further than doing what I thought was right. Since my realization and return to God, I have also found how loving He truly is not only to accept me back but to C A R E for me and look after me, just as the birds never hunger as the scripture says. I now devote my life to Him, all that I was (wasn’t much) and all that I am and will be as His servant should I be so blessed. For whatever debts I may owe when the time comes, I accept from Him what He determines and if I don’t get to paradise I will have loved Him for all the love He has given me, heaven or no heaven, but I will remain faithful to Him to the end with His grace.

AMEN!!!

I agree wholeheartedly and I have a similar experience and view.

Wherever He sees fit for me to spend eternity is what I’ll deserve, so there can’t be any bad in that.

… but don’t give up on heaven just yet. You are closer to it than you may realize.

God Bless,
Snert

 

[fhansen]

If you’ve felt it, you’d know.

No, I’ve been gifted once with the experience you describe but I still maintain that God’s love and eternal life/the resurrection for His creatures are inextricably connected. In fact, my experience of Gods’ unconditional love would only serve to bolster such a conviction.

 

[cyberwolf001]

You gotta admit without these two factors Christianity would die. All of a sudden no real need to convert anyone, or worry about a lot of sins.

After all we know people can live long, happy and healthy lives in sin. So why bother them if we are all going the same way?

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

It kind of does make sense, but heaven was not available to us until Jesus’ death and Resurrection. So maybe the question does make sense if you look at it that way. Before the Resurrection, there was no heaven. At least not as a realistic goal. Yet the Israelites still believed in God.

Maybe. As soon as the fall happened God made promises and we must have had grace before Christ came or the world would have been far worse off. There were saints before Christ came. I think grace was at work sice the beginning and not just when Jesus died etc. When he came here he simply fulfilled his mission as he must but we had all benefited to a degree since the beginning. Heaven was opened by Jesus but this does not mean we never had grace until then.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Maybe. As soon as the fall happened God made promises and we must have had grace before Christ came or the world would have been far worse off. There were saints before Christ came. I think grace was at work sice the beginning and not just when Jesus died etc. When he came here he simply fulfilled his mission as he must but we had all benefited to a degree since the beginning. Heaven was opened by Jesus but this does not mean we never had grace until then.

To clarify what I said. Q. Would I still love God if there was no heaven is the same as saying if there was no God could I still love God to me. I suppose you could love a God but you could not love the true God if he did not exist. And if the true God did not exist there would be no creator and hence no creation. So if there was no heaven I would not exist. And henc could not lov God. on it goes.

I can’t see how the question can be answered other than this. I love to think though. We have a brain and are meant to use it. So many people just drift thu life never ever thinking about the big issues or really important things like this.

I have work to do now - trying to make a living.

I hope my babble makes sense.

God bless all

 

[LilyM]

I’m surprised anyone has any doubts about answering the question ‘yes’, to be honest …

After all, don’t we ALL have friends and family, none of whom are capable of rewarding us with heaven or punishing us with hell?

Don’t we nonetheless love these people, either just for themselves or at least for the worldly goods they’ve given us?

Do any of us have any less reason for loving God as for loving them, even without the reward of heaven?

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

I’m surprised anyone has any doubts about answering the question ‘yes’, to be honest …

After all, don’t we ALL have friends and family, none of whom are capable of rewarding us with heaven or punishing us with hell?

Don’t we nonetheless love these people, either just for themselves or at least for the worldly goods they’ve given us?

Do any of us have any less reason for loving God as for loving them, even without the reward of heaven?

God is heaven though. If there is no heaven there is no God. If there is no God there is nothing in existence. The question is flawed. Good debate though. God bless

 

[VociMike]

I’m surprised anyone has any doubts about answering the question ‘yes’, to be honest …

After all, don’t we ALL have friends and family, none of whom are capable of rewarding us with heaven or punishing us with hell?

Don’t we nonetheless love these people, either just for themselves or at least for the worldly goods they’ve given us?

Do any of us have any less reason for loving God as for loving them, even without the reward of heaven?

But if God’s revelation to us is wrong about heaven, what else is it wrong about? In the hypothetical case given, could we actually think we know anything about God - including his very existence?

 

[jkiernan56]

I beg to differ, there are many meanings of “fear of the Lord”. But forget that for a second…

Now wait, you keep changing your story. First you say “fear and love cannot coexist”, then you change it to "‘fear of hell’ and love cannot coexist, and now you’re saying disobeying out of fear is not acting out of love. Which I presume to mean “disobeying out of fear” and “acting out of love” cannot coexist.

“Acting out of love” is not “love”, just like “fear of hell” is not “fear”.

In your original post, you didn’t specify anything…you simply said fear and love cannot coexist. No wonder you keep arguing, you keep changing your statements to match your side of the argument.:whacky:

It’s like someone told me once when I was arguing with him, “you’re always going to win, so why bother”. Basically then, it’s no use arguing. Now I understand how that guy felt when he said that.

… or better yet put…

:slapfight: ( I really like this, I think it’s cute, but I think they need one that just has one person slapping the other silly.)

You don’t have to listen to Scott Hahn if you don’t want. No one is holding a gun to your head. Oh wait, that won’t make you listen to him either. Never mind.

You keep saying cannot as if it’s written in stone, impossible. It is possible. *Very *possible. God is full of seeming contradiction. You just need to understand it properly. And I seriously doubt you’ve never done good because of fear and pain. That too, is impossible. At some point in your life, from birth until now, I’ll bet you can find at least one example.

But even if I came up with some really good examples, you’d dispute them and change what you originally said so you could win yet another argument. So it’s no use giving you examples because you’ll just change your story to tidily fit your side.

Sooo…

Believe what you want. Just don’t expect me to.

I stand by what I said 100% - Fear and Love cannot coexist just like light and darkness cannot coexist. Perfect Love casts out ALL fear at St. John mentions. Fear of the Lord which has its foundation in Love does motivate. When I mention just Fear - I DO NOT include Fear of the Lord according to scriptural understanding. Fear of the Lord and Fear of Hell are NOT the same thing. Fear of the Lord springs from Love. Fear of Hell DOES NOT spring from Love. Fear of Hell IS NOT Fear of the Lord.

Personally - Fear of Hell does not motivate me to Love God. Fear the Lord (Knowing his Love and Grace) does motivate me to Love God.

 

[jkiernan56]

I never said fear of hell is perfect contrition. The Catholic Church has a name for it, which I even quoted. Imperfect contrition or attrition. And imperfect contrition is a gift of God.

I am happy that you have never had an occassion where fear of hell has motivated you more than your love of God. But the teaching of the Church is clear, the fear of hell is truly a gift of God, that can in turn be brought to fruition in the sacrament of Penance.

Whatever floats your boat. If fear of hell helps you towards God and Heaven, all the power to you.

 

[jkiernan56]

But if God’s revelation to us is wrong about heaven, what else is it wrong about? In the hypothetical case given, could we actually think we know anything about God - including his very existence?

That is like saying "but if God’s revelation to us is wrong about LOVE , what else … ". Do you deny the reality of Love? Love and Heaven are intrinsically linked. Real love is a foretaste of Heaven.

 

[nancy_dalrymple]

Whatever floats your boat. If fear of hell helps you towards God and Heaven, all the power to you.

There should be some fear of hell,for if not then you would not fear sin either.

 

[wina]

Hm…very interesting subject.
And I’m still thinking and meditating about it…