If There Is No Heaven Will You Still Love God?

[Cinette]

To me this debate is about loving God for who He is and for what He is - He loved us first and He has chosen us and He has done so much for us and given us all we have.

If we “love” him through fear of hell then that is not love. Fear of God is not the same as fear of hell.

 

[LilyM]

But if God’s revelation to us is wrong about heaven, what else is it wrong about? In the hypothetical case given, could we actually think we know anything about God - including his very existence?

I don’t pretend to know everything there is to know about my parents. I’m sure that some things I THINK they’ve told me about themselves are totally wrong.

Maybe they never said them, or said something else that I understood wrongly. Or perhaps even said them as a joke, or sarcastically, or in some other circumstances in which they are untrue, that I didn’t take as such.

Doesn’t mean I’m completely ignorant about them in every respect.

I trust that after all this time with them I know enough about them to know with certainty that there are things I should be grateful to them for, and things to love them for. If some of these things turn out to be wrong, or turn out that they didn’t do them, it doesn’t eliminate ALL of them! After all, it’s just as likely that there are GOOD things they’ve done that I don’t know about either!

 

[Cinette]

There should be some fear of hell,for if not then you would not fear sin either.

* Good point Nancy! *

 

[jkiernan56]

* Good point Nancy! *

Fear of punishment is NOT Fear of the Lord. If you are putting fear of sin in the context of true Fear of the Lord, I agree with you. In that case, Love is moving a person to turn away from sin.

If you are putting fear of sin in the context of Fear of Hell and punishment, at least for me that has nothing to do with Love or God or Heaven. It is just basic common sense to stop doing what causes or may cause pain. But that again is not love. And love is the ONLY thing that will bring anyone to Heaven. In fact, it is already a participation in it to some degree.

 

[jkiernan56]

To me this debate is about loving God for who He is and for what He is - He loved us first and He has chosen us and He has done so much for us and given us all we have.

If we “love” him through fear of hell then that is not love. Fear of God is not the same as fear of hell.

Thank you Cinette. I couldn’t agree with you any more. You said it very well.

 

[benedictus2]

Heaven is not a place, it’s a person. Since that person Jesus is God, the answer is no, i would not love Jesus if i knew He did not exist.

That is not right. Heaven may not be a place but it is not a person either. Heaven is NOT Jesus. We can probably look at heave as a STATE of BEING WITH JESUS but Jesus and heaven are not the same.

So I suppose you could say that those who are very aware of Jesus’s presence are already experiencing heaven

 

[benedictus2]

Very good point.

Just to throw a wrench into the question - is Heaven really something that “starts” after death? Or is loving God and doing His will already a participation in Heaven? I believe it is.

“May your Kingdom come on earth as it is in Heaven.” Doing God’s will out of love is a part of Heaven here and now.

Very good point! Scott Hahn calls The Mass, Heaven on Earth.

 

[MariaG]

Whatever floats your boat. If fear of hell helps you towards God and Heaven, all the power to you.

Your compassion and understanding are truly underwhelming.

 

[benedictus2]

If you’ve felt it, you’d know.

Completely agree.

 

[benedictus2]

that caught my attention - that question. thx for your peace too,. If there was no heaven there’d be no God because God is heaven, heaven is God. When in grace we have God within us and that means heaven is within us. God is in us in the form of grace and we can’t do any good without Gods grace. So to my reckoning I would not be capable of loving God if there was no heaven because I would have no grace.

I’m not a theologian or philosopher though. Do you think this makes sense?

God bless all:thumbsup:

I think the error of this argument comes from equating heaven with God. Heaven, which is either a state or place is not God but gets only so defined as a place or state of pure bliss because of God’s presence.

 

[MariaG]

To me this debate is about loving God for who He is and for what He is - He loved us first and He has chosen us and He has done so much for us and given us all we have.

If we “love” him through fear of hell then that is not love. Fear of God is not the same as fear of hell.

The hypothetical question, was would you still love God and do what was right without heaven and presumably hell.

And I said I would like to think so but since there has been at least one occassion when I have not had perfect contrition but imperfect contrition, which was fear of hell, I could not honestly say that I could still love God.

But apparently you and many here always have perfect contrition:shrug: .

I apparently will have more to burn away than those of you who have never suffered a crisis of faith or conscience before standing in my Lord’s presence. Either that or I am just more honest about myself and my failing and try not to deceive myself lest I be lost.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Fear of punishment is NOT Fear of the Lord. If you are putting fear of sin in the context of true Fear of the Lord, I agree with you. In that case, Love is moving a person to turn away from sin.

If you are putting fear of sin in the context of Fear of Hell and punishment, at least for me that has nothing to do with Love or God or Heaven. It is just basic common sense to stop doing what causes or may cause pain. But that again is not love. And love is the ONLY thing that will bring anyone to Heaven. In fact, it is already a participation in it to some degree.

**Jkieman,

Hey people:

“O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins, because I dread the loss of heaven, and the pains of hell; but most of all because they offend Thee, my God, Who are all good and deserving of all my love.I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to confess my sins, to do penance, and to amend my life.” ~ Amen.

To that I add:

AMEN!**

 

[benedictus2]

Does a child still love his parents after he gets scolded or smacked on the bottom? Maybe not immediately because he’s too busy crying. But after all is said and done, of course he does.

Fear of going to Hell is certainly not an ideal, but it’s the first step. Parents need some control over their children until they realize that there is more to love than fear.

Not only that, but if you listen to Scott Hahn, you might just understand that Hell itself springs from the Mercy and Love of God. It’s pretty interesting stuff, not at all something you could put together and understand by yourself. But when you hear it spelled out, it certainly makes a lot of sense.

Yes, that is true. Fear of hell is the first step. But a step that is left behind as we grow in love.

For a long time, that was all that motivated me to be "good’ but slowly He gave me a glimpse of the the immensity of His love so fear went out the door and love of Him for Himself alone started to take hold.

I am not there yet in term of completely loving Him as our Blessed Mother or the saints, but baby steps will take me there I am sure because that is His Will.

 

[Numinous]

If there was no heaven, then there would be no Resurrection, which means the hypothetical God of this thread would not be the god who is Jesus Christ (who is the Resurrection), and thus I would not love him because he would be a false god. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

 

[benedictus2]

I beg to differ, there are many meanings of “fear of the Lord”. But forget that for a second…

Now wait, you keep changing your story. First you say “fear and love cannot coexist”, then you change it to "‘fear of hell’ and love cannot coexist, and now you’re saying disobeying out of fear is not acting out of love. Which I presume to mean “disobeying out of fear” and “acting out of love” cannot coexist.
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Believe what you want. Just don’t expect me to.

I would agree with you that love (a certain degree of it) can co-exist with fear.

But perfect love cannot co-exist with fear.

That is why John say Perfect love casts our fear.

 

[benedictus2]

Hey Ben, let me say it this way… For some of us there will be no Heaven. Hard to imagine that… I spent my time (too long) separated from practicing my faith and lived a life I used to say I had no regrets with. I always believed there was a God and just didn’t go any further than doing what I thought was right. Since my realization and return to God, I have also found how loving He truly is not only to accept me back but to C A R E for me and look after me, just as the birds never hunger as the scripture says. I now devote my life to Him, all that I was (wasn’t much) and all that I am and will be as His servant should I be so blessed. For whatever debts I may owe when the time comes, I accept from Him what He determines and if I don’t get to paradise I will have loved Him for all the love He has given me, heaven or no heaven, but I will remain faithful to Him to the end with His grace.

Oh Tom, such a beautiful post you bring me to tears.

Wholeheartedly agree with what you have said especially the part I have highlighted.

I am reminded of something that I think St Therese said: that she would quite be happy to be in hell (I think she was not clear on the concept of hell then) because if hell is the only place where no one loves God.then if she was there then even in that place there would be somebody who loves God.

 

[Snerticus]

God is heaven though. If there is no heaven there is no God. If there is no God there is nothing in existence. The question is flawed. Good debate though. God bless

Well, the way I see it, but it’s just my view… God created heaven and earth. He Himself just IS. If heaven was created, it cannot be God, since He was not created. God exists in His creation, heaven, as do the angels and saints.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created heaven and earth.

If we go by the above verse in Genesis, and one claims God is heaven, then it should also follow that God is earth. So it has been stated in this thread the following: God is heaven. If there is no heaven there would be no God and therefore we would not believe in Him.

I propose then, if we follow Genesis and if God is both heaven and earth; and the question states there is no Heaven; then 1) there would be no God 2) there would be no earth 3) there would be no man 4) this question would be moot.

But that’s not where the OP’s question lies. We can take the question and put it on so many levels to argue up and down what God and heaven really are to each of us, and base our arguments from there. But if you take the question as simple as you can and answer it, you should be able to form an equally simple answer. It’s usually off the cuff, but it’s also usually the most honest. While we will never know difinitifely what we would believe, I’d still give it a yes.

However, as one who tends to think a lot myself, I know it is difficult to keep the mind simple sometimes. :whacky:

 

[Realcatholicgk]

…

But apparently you and many here always have perfect contrition:shrug: .

I apparently will have more to burn away than those of you who have never suffered a crisis of faith or conscience before standing in my Lord’s presence. Either that or I am just more honest about myself and my failing and try not to deceive myself lest I be lost.

**Hi Maria,

You better start ducking before they all start throwing stones! Let God judge your heart! Maybe you expect more from yourself then God does, But knowing the “greatest commandment” maybe not! At least we know that our God is a mercyful God!
I often tell the story of the young boy awaken by God and told to give his master, the king, a message, the boy goes and the King says “Wait, how will I know the message is really from God? Go back to sleep and if God awakes you again tell Him I want to know what was the last sin I confessed was, If He tells you I will know that the message is really from him.” The boy went back to sleep. Later God again woke him. The boy told God what the king had said. The boy ran to the king with God’s message. The King said “What did God say my last sin was?” The Boy replied, “God said to tell you that He forgave you and he really can’t remember!” The King then listened to God’s message!

This cute story shows a real religious truth, God forgives us all our sins, Of cource we will have to pay the wages of sin, but we do not have to suffer eternal damnation due to them!

Relax, God loves you and I just the way He made us! I can’t wait to see what He finally makes of me when He is finished! I hope to be like a lot more like St.Genesisus, the patron saint of clowns. And when I die God says: “Send in the Clowns!”

God Bless**

 

[Realcatholicgk]

…
But that’s not where the OP’s question lies. We can take the question and put it on so many levels to argue up and down what God and heaven really are to each of us, and base our arguments from there. But if you take the question as simple as you can and answer it, you should be able to form an equally simple answer. It’s usually off the cuff, but it’s also usually the most honest. While we will never know difinitifely what we would believe, I’d still give it a yes.
However, as one who tends to think a lot myself, I know it is difficult to keep the mind simple sometimes.

**Snert,

Does your head hurt when you think that hard? Mine would! **

 

[Realcatholicgk]

If there was no heaven, then there would be no Resurrection, which means the hypothetical God of this thread would not be the god who is Jesus Christ (who is the Resurrection), and thus I would not love him because he would be a false god. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

**
Hi Numinous, :weave:

Are you and Snerticus related? Just wondering!

God Bless**