If There Is No Heaven Will You Still Love God?

[Snerticus]

I would agree with you that love (a certain degree of it) can co-exist with fear.

But perfect love cannot co-exist with fear.

That is why John say Perfect love casts our fear.

True enough. In heaven there is no fear. (That reminds me of the “beer barrel polka”. But I digress… . .)

In heaven everything is perfect. We can only hope to attain a certain degree of that perfect love here on earth. I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m certainly nowhere near St. John of the Cross, or any other Saint when it comes to perfect love. Here on earth we keep struggling and growing with what we’ve got until it slowly becomes more perfected. It’s called growing in faith. And yes, the end result will be perfect love. Until then, there will be varying degrees of fear that will help us on our way.

[sarcasm]I am happy though, that the other person who argued with me is either on the level of St. John or surpasses him in love since they have never had a painful or fearful experience that caused them to do good. [/sarcasm].

All sarcasm aside, I’m not saying we should love by fear alone, it’s by no means a perfect form of love, but as we both affirm, it is a first step.

 

[Snerticus]

**Snert, **

**Does your head hurt when you think that hard? Mine would! **

Actually, sometimes, yes!

Right about now I’m a bit dizzy…

 

[Snerticus]

**Relax, God loves you and I just the way He made us! I can’t wait to see what He finally makes of me when He is finished! I hope to be like a lot more like St.Genesisus, the patron saint of clowns. And when I die God says: “Send in the Clowns!” **

God Bless

I hope that’s not what happens after death. I’m petrified of clowns… Really. http://forums.guildofgreeters.com/style_emoticons/default/clown.gif :bigyikes:

 

[Cinette]

Fear of punishment is NOT Fear of the Lord. If you are putting fear of sin in the context of true Fear of the Lord, I agree with you. In that case, Love is moving a person to turn away from sin.

If you are putting fear of sin in the context of Fear of Hell and punishment, at least for me that has nothing to do with Love or God or Heaven. It is just basic common sense to stop doing what causes or may cause pain. But that again is not love. And love is the ONLY thing that will bring anyone to Heaven. In fact, it is already a participation in it to some degree.

You are so right of course! Maybe I hadn’t rubbed my eyes - I certainly had not washed my face yet. Just stumbled out of bed and went to see the emails.

We hate sin because we love God and the fear of God brings us to our knees and makes us contrite for our sins - se are sorry for having offended Him and remember how He died for our sins.

Thank you jkiernan

 

[benedictus2]

Maybe. As soon as the fall happened God made promises and we must have had grace before Christ came or the world would have been far worse off. There were saints before Christ came. I think grace was at work sice the beginning and not just when Jesus died etc. When he came here he simply fulfilled his mission as he must but we had all benefited to a degree since the beginning. Heaven was opened by Jesus but this does not mean we never had grace until then.

I do believe that grace was there even before Jesus came but even that grace was brought about by His Life, Death and Ressurection.

It is a bit difficult to think about it this way because we operate on linear time but God is in the eternal now.

So yes, heaven was opened by Jesus and all the graces that people had before then were still a result of Him opening heaven for us.

The best way to illustrate this is through the Immaculate Conception. Mary was saved by Jesus as well.

 

[Cinette]

Very good point! Scott Hahn calls The Mass, Heaven on Earth.

We enter the Kingdom of God when we become children of God - here on earth. It is the practice of our Faith that brings us to the Kingdom.

 

[benedictus2]

God is heaven though. If there is no heaven there is no God. If there is no God there is nothing in existence. The question is flawed. Good debate though. God bless

Actuall No. God is not heaven. God is what makes heaven, heaven but heaven and God are not one and the same thing.

God is the source of all creation. We cannot say that of heaven.

 

[benedictus2]

**Jkieman, **

**Hey people: **

**“O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins, because I dread the loss of heaven, and the pains of hell; but most of all because they offend Thee, my God, Who are all good and deserving of all my love.**I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to confess my sins, to do penance, and to amend my life.” ~ Amen.

To that I add:

AMEN!

Hey darling, you’ve stolen my post. Now give it back or there will be repercusions.

 

[benedictus2]

But if God’s revelation to us is wrong about heaven, what else is it wrong about? In the hypothetical case given, could we actually think we know anything about God - including his very existence?

The question is hypothetical and that is why I said there is a humongous IF at the begining.

God is God and could do whatever He wills. What I am saying here is if IFHe has willed it so, would you still love Him.

 

[Numinous]

I don’t think so! I don’t think I know who Snerticus is. Why do you ask?

 

[benedictus2]

There should be some fear of hell,for if not then you would not fear sin either.

We don’t really fear sin as such. We fear the consequence of siin which hell.

But I think what they are getting at is that we should avoid sin and do good not becaue we are afraid of being zapped into hell but because we love God.

It is like if I were to clean the house because I am afraid my Mom will give me a belting if I and contrast that I will clean the house becaue I want to please her and make her happy because I love her.

St Therese said it is not so much how great or small your deed is, what counts is whether we do it with love. That is for love of our Lord.

 

[Matariel]

Peace of Christ to everyone who visits this thread!
But hypothetically, if there is no heaven, if this life here on earth is the only life that God is giving us, would you still love God and follow His commands?

Looking forward to some interesting responses.

I don’t understand the question. Do you mean the righteous would die and that’s it, or even the righteous would go to Hell?

Peaceful oblivion would be fine with me.

 

[benedictus2]

Hm…very interesting subject.
And I’m still thinking and meditating about it…

And I think that is a good place to be. Pondering this in your heart.

 

[VociMike]

That is like saying "but if God’s revelation to us is wrong about LOVE , what else … ". Do you deny the reality of Love? Love and Heaven are intrinsically linked. Real love is a foretaste of Heaven.

But the question is, what if there is no heaven. So I don’t understand your reply at all.

 

[Snerticus]

We enter the Kingdom of God when we become children of God - here on earth. It is the practice of our Faith that brings us to the Kingdom.

Umm that’s not what benedictus2, or Scott Hahn, means. It’s a bit more profound that your statement.

Although I admit what you say is valid, there’s just more to it.

 

[VociMike]

The question is hypothetical and that is why I said there is a humongous IF at the begining.

God is God and could do whatever He wills. What I am saying here is if IFHe has willed it so, would you still love Him.

In that case, I don’t see how I could even know him to love him. Because I only know him through his revelation, and it’s either all true or else I can’t trust any of it.

A God who did not will that we unite with him in heaven for eternity would be a very different God, and I can’t possibly know how I’d feel about this different God.

 

[benedictus2]

If there was no heaven, then there would be no Resurrection, which means the hypothetical God of this thread would not be the god who is Jesus Christ (who is the Resurrection), and thus I would not love him because he would be a false god. Hypothetically speaking, of course.

The error in this statement is making Resurrection a consequence of heaven.

I suppose you could modify the question to: what IF the ressurection is just so that we can learn of God’s immense love and not necessarily going to heaven?

What the question is trying to get at is to eliminate the possibility of reward. Would we still love God if there is no “reward” of heaven?

 

[Realcatholicgk]

I don’t think so! I don’t think I know who Snerticus is. Why do you ask?

**
Hi Numinous,

I was being silly Both of you make my head hurt trying to understand your postings!

God Bless**

 

[benedictus2]

I don’t understand the question. Do you mean the righteous would die and that’s it, or even the righteous would go to Hell?

Peaceful oblivion would be fine with me.

No heaven and no hell. Just this life on earth.

 

[Matariel]

No heaven and no hell. Just this life on earth.

Oblivion would be of no consequence. I would not feel angry at God. Unfortunately, I might be prone to sin more-- even though I know that’s not the right answer. But Hell can be a motivator.