If There Is No Heaven Will You Still Love God?

[severntofall]

I am on verge of losing my faith. Can anyone convince me that religion is genuine and that these events really happened?

Faith should always be lost. Trust in science; trust in evidence; trust in logic; trust in reason…if these lead you to a belief in god then so be it. Know this, that while there may actually be a god; it is certainly not the god of the bible.

 

[benedictus2]

**Heaven is reality! Reality doesn’t allow the question “what about if it wouldn’t be”. **

That is where your argument is logically wrong. Because you fail to grasp the nature of 'WHAT IF" questions. The whole reason it is a “WHAT IF” IS PRECISELY BECAUSE IT IS A QUESTION OF “IF REALITY WERE DIFFERENT”

Let us say for example that you are male (a reasonable assumption based on your name here at CAF).

The WHAT IF question of " WHAT IF YOU WERE BORN FEMALE" IS VALID PRECISELY BECAUSE YOU ARE MALE.

To ask the question “WHAT IF YOU WERE BORN MALE” would be really stupid because you are in reality male.

The very nature of a “what if” question is that it is asking a question that turns reality the other way around or at least proposes a different look at or aspect of reality.

So therefore, we cannot ask “WHAT IF THERE IS ETERNAL LIFE” because there is no “what if there”, because THERE IS eternal life. That will be a very stupid question indeed for a Christian.

But for a die hard atheist that question will make sense because they do not believe and have no grasp of eternal life. So they can validly ask themselves "But WHAT IF there is eternal life?

Is that a plain enough explanation of the nature of WHAT IF questions?

I get the feeling that the resistance to acknowledging the validity of this question is born of fear. I think that somehow you are afraid to ask this question and that is why you would rather it was not raised at all.

 

[benedictus2]

People were created for heaven. They were designed by their Creator to covet it as a good. This is why the “what if” question makes no sense-we’re not built to live temporarily. And people who haven’t been blest in this life but rather have had to endure horrific experiences often cling to the one hope and promise that the next life will be worth living-and make up for it all.

Okay I am reposting here a response I made to Bruno on the nature of :what if "questions with different examples.

The whole reason it is a “WHAT IF” IS PRECISELY BECAUSE IT IS A QUESTION OF “IF REALITY WERE DIFFERENT”

It would not make sense if I were to ask “What if God meant us to share eternity with Him?” because that is a fact, a reality (or at least for us Christians that is a reality). That question would only be valid if we were atheists.

That would be like a man asking himself “what if I was born a man?”. A sane person listening to him ask that question would probably go “Duhhh, maybe you should have your brain examined”

The proper what if question would be for him to say “what if I was born a woman?”

Or say if you are a true blue American to ask yourself "WHAT IF I was born Chinese or Indian or African? There would be no sense in asking yourself "WHAT IF I was born American because you already are American.

 

[benedictus2]

Bruno you missed the point. Benedictus asked a hypothetical about if there was no Heaven would one still love God?

If this life is the last bit of interaction we have with a being on the scale and magnitude as the one you posit - heck even in my last moments i’d raise a glass to him/her/it. If i am to be simply dust and ashes (following Benedictus’ hypothetical) and my life had an author i’ll give him his credit.

Amazing how an atheist can get this hypothesis and yet some Christians can’t.

Thank you TheAtheist.

I pray that you do come to realize that your life indeed has an Author and He does love you very much indeed.

The real sadness is not in “not being loved by God” but rather in “being loved by God and not know it”.

 

[benedictus2]

But then again I have lived a very happy life up to this point - no major regrets, no major complaints. Presuming i don’t die a violent or painful death, i take the position of Socrates in saying that all i’m prepared for is a long peaceful eternal slumber.

But can the same be said for everyone? What about those who have undergone much pain or torture in life?

Do you know what the smell of burning flesh is like when aid workers have to torch your whole family because they and the rest of your surrounding villages died of yellow fever?

How about being raped to the point your sphincter muscles can no longer hold -forcing one to constantly go to the bathroom and being alienated by your society because of it?

I never had to of course - but i’ve met and dealt with such people. Some are very, very, very bitter at your God.

Some keep the faith - but expect a Heaven after what they’ve gone through. Otherwise what’s the point?

The examples you have illustrated above are indeed horrendous. And unless one has a clear theology of death and redemption, the suffering does not make sense because it seems as if the innocent sometimes suffer for no reason.

But even in this life, our lives are marked by cycles of deaths and resurrections. I have also known of people who have been able to turn the bad things that have happened to them for good. One example I can think of is Muhktaran Bibi.

That you shrink at the though of these atrocities mean that your heart is in the right place and that sense of what is right is a prompting from God Himself. Though you may not believe it, you feel this compassion for the oppressed only because God has planted the law of love into our hearts.

To the major question: “If there is no Heaven, will you Still Love God?”

That’s dependent on the life you’ve lead.

I think you have nailed the answer right there. It depends on whether you have truly experienced being loved by God. It is not about comfort or wealth although that plays into it sometimes, but when you know that you are so utterly tenderly loved, then you can answer yes.

Even the testing angel remarked to God in the beginning of the Book of Job that of course one can brag about the piety of Job - for only good has been done unto him.

Now what about someone whose been put through the ringer eh?

That’s the true test.

Yes, that is true. But if you notice in the book of Job, God does not give him an answer as to why. Instead He answers with one of the most beautiful discourses in the Bible (beginning with Chapter 38).

It all boils down to humility. We should all be able to say “The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh. Blessed be the Lord”.

It is interesting what Job’s answer to God was after God has spoken.

He says: "I had heard of you by word of mouth, but now my eye has seen you. Therefore I disown what I have said, and repent in dust and ashes. "
When we truly see God then we realize that we are creatures and He is Master and Lord. But He is Lord who loves us enough to die for us.

Although I do realize that that is something that an atheist will not understand.

 

[benedictus2]

EDIT: I often see the piety of people, or the disavowals of faith from others and i often shrug. For it is easy for some to praise or reject the idea of God given their circumstances.

It is only when they are under duress do i see the true nature of things. When a man (supposedly) without faith breaks down and cries out to the Heavens, or one who had faith (supposedly) acts in a manner discordant with that idea.

It is when these people have been tossed into the fire, can one truly know their minds.

Otherwise, it is simply preening and self-congratulating posturing.

That is very well put:thumbsup:

And that is true, pharisees and publicans abound. But the reality of pharisees and publicans does not nullify the existence of God nor the reality of His love for us. All it affirms is that there are pharisees and pubilcans in this world.

Yes, we fail to be true witnesses of Christ. But that we are terrible Christians does not make Christianity null and void.

As Chesterton said: “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried.”

And then there are the Saints whose lives are a testament to that part of your post that I highlighted.

 

[benedictus2]

God created me and I love Him for giving me this life. It may not be a great life for some but that could be another discussion entirely. Why is it that one would need more than life? Why do I need a promise of more to love? How ungrateful could I be?! I am thankful to God for giving me THIS life and the chances that I have to live it as I wish. That in itself is a gift and worth love. Of course I want there to be more after this but taking this as a hypothetical as it was intended, my answer is simply YES!

Very well said!

 

[benedictus2]

My agreement depends on what you mean.

Re-read what you replied “precisely” to.

God is the source of all perfection, and is therefore the source of our happiness, fulfillment and completion. Therefore God is heaven. Your confusion is based on a flawed view of heaven. Heaven is not a place in which their are tables fall of sweets and nice things. That is the immature view of heaven. The real heaven is eternity with God and is God.

I do not view heaven as a place. I believe heaven is a state of being. As I have explained before, even if that state of being with God is not there because I am not there, God would still be there. God’s existence does not depend on my being with Him. No God is not heaven.
However, I can sort of understand now why the question does not make sense to you, because you equate God with heaven.
But I have already re-phrased the question to read after life or eternity instead of heaven.

Yes we have shared in the good of existence. And since existence is good and is God, how is it logically possible that you will pass out of it?

It is logical because existence IS NOT GOD. You made an error there again by equating existence with God. Existence is not God.

If God does not desire to love us for all eternity, then such a God is an impostor. He is not love. Therefore the original OP is a fallacy.

The OP is only a fallacy because you have made a few wrong assumptions as stated above.
That God is not love is only true if the end is damnation i.e. He predestines as to damnation as some protestants believe.
But the “what if” of this thread is not that we will be damned but that we will just go back to nothing. In nothing, there is no pain. So no evil god torturing us for all eternity.

Such a question cannot even begin to be answered because the nature of perfect love does not allow it. Its a trick question. You are saying that i “ought” to love God. But if there is no heaven, then God does not love us.

That is a non-sequitur.

And if there is no such thing as an eternally perfect love, then there is no such thing as objective moral standards.

There is such a thing as eternally perfect love even if we were to cease to exist because God is a family of love. God is Father who loves the Son and the Son who loves the Father back and this love between them is the Holy Spirit.
So no, eternally perfectly love does not depend on our eternal existence. That is the height of arrogance.
We are creatures. It is God’s condescension that He loves us.

And if there are no objective moral standards, then the OP amounts to nothing more then an opportunity to encourage a meaningless parade of human glory. But their is no glory for God. For me to say i would love God even if there were no heaven, is to deny God his glory, because the true God would want us to be perfectly happy; and that can only be acquired (accept for maybe a few exceptions) by freely accepting his invitation to an eternity of love.

A couple of errors here.
No you will not be denying God His glory if you were to love Him for Himself alone. You will not be glorifying Him by giving Him conditional love.
And once again as I have pointed out to fhansen, this is not about denying his invitation to eternity, the question is if there is no invitation to deny in the first place.

It depends upon what you mean by fulfillment? We cannot be fulfilled in any true sense of heaven here on earth. If that were true, what would be the point of heaven?

And that is true, but the point of this thread is “what if there is no heaven?”. You are going around in circles here. The question is: “With whatever limited sense of fulfillment that we are able to experience right now, would you love God, just for that?

We can certainly experience joy and happiness, but it is finite, fleeting, and none of it can be compare to or can fulfill us like heaven.

But since the question has taken heaven out of the question, then I ask once more: “Would the finite joy and happiness we experience now, be enough for us to love God back because after all, this finite happiness and joy still came from Him?

 

[benedictus2]

Some people have low standards. For me, it is miserable. I only choose to exist because God is heaven.

That’s all okay. I did not know you are in such a miserable state so I cannot even presume to know your state of mind when you reply.
So I will leave it at that and pray that you come to know (really know deep in your heart) the God who loves you right now.

Not perfectly, no. Perhaps i would respect him as a parent, but then again i would wonder why such a being would bring me into a reality full of suffering and potential horror, since an imperfect God certainly cannot give me fulfillment or ultimately save me. Such a god, in my eyes, would be a selfish abuser. The God i ought to know and love is perfect, and the only justified reason for bringing somebody into existence is because existence is perfectly good. And if it is perfectly good for a person to exist, then it is an imperfection for somebody to cease. And i love him because God is heaven.

A few errors here.

First. If God is really a God of love and is perfect why would He bring you into an imperfect world when as you have said there is heaven. Why not create you straight into heaven?

Second: If the justifiable reason for bringing somebody into existence is because existence is perfectly good, then therefore you do not exist because as you stated above, your existence at this very moment is miserable, so therefore not perfectly good.

Third: The reason that God brought us into existence is not because existence is perfectly good but because God loves us and wants to share His life with us. Even on this earth we are already sharing in this life because as Genesis tells us : He gave us his spirit to give us life.

As TheAtheist said, the answer to the question depends on one’s experience. So because your life is extremely miserable right now then of course you cannot love God unless there is hope of something better later on.

But that would be like loving your mother only because of the thought of dessert later on because you hate the terrible peas you are forced to eat right now. Wouldn’t it be better if we could actually develop a liking for the peas and realize that our mother’s love is as much in the peas, as in the dessert.

Some Saints have written of finding Joy in the Cross and that I think is the paradox of Christianity. And it is only a paradox really when you equate joy with worldly hapiness. Christ’s Joy and Peace is quite different and can and does co-exist with the cross.

But I do not know your pain so I am not pontificating here. I can only pray that you do find Christ’s Joy and Peace because the Kingdom of Heaven is not really all that distant, it is at hand.

TheAtheist has help me realize why you do not get the validity of my question.

But I would ask you to read my post above this, to both Bruno and fhansen as to why the “what if” of this thread is valid.

 

[benedictus2]

The true God created me for eternal heaven. That is why i have a desire to be perfectly happy. Is there something wrong with desiring perfect happiness? Was is not God who gave us this gift?

If God is the source of happiness, then God is heaven. Thats the only heaven i want to go to. I don’t know what heaven you’re talking about.

Your logic here sounds very much like " if God is male then male is God".

God is the source of happiness but heaven is NOT the source of hapiness so therefore heaven is not God. Flawed logic.

No. We experience heaven, only because there is such a thing as heaven. Heaven is an eternal truth that flows eternally from Gods nature of being.

No we experience heaven because of God. Heaven is the state of being with God. It is not something that flows from Gof, or an eternal truth that flows from God.

It isn’t some subjective reality that switches on and off. Heaven is not dependent upon our existence. It simply is. Heaven is the greatest good for all creatures. God is the greatest Good.

If God is the greatest Good, then He IS the greatest Good for all creatures. You cannot make qualifiers here because you have already made a general statement…

You have a seriously flawed view of heaven.

On the contrary I think it is you who has a seriously flowed view of heaven because you equate heaven with God. Listen to Jesus’s prayer: Our Father who art in Heaven. He did not say Our Father who IS heaven.

If we are talking about God, then we are talking about the first cause.

Yes, but not the conclusions the you arrived at.

I’m sorry you feel that way. But i must tell the truth.

But that is just it. It is NOT truth. But I believe that you perceive it as truth.

What if there were no heaven? = there would be no God.

Again, only because you equate heaven with God.

As I have said before, I have re-phrased this to what if the end of this life is only oblivion, would you still love God? I think you have already answered no to that because as you have said there doesn’t seem to be anything in your life right now to love God for.

True. However, love is meaningless if God is not heaven. In moral truth, you ought to love perfection. Perfection is heaven.

There again you make equations that do not add up. Perfection is NOT heaven.

A perfect creature would surely agree. We ought to love God, but thats because of what he is. God is love,

Ahhh, finally. God is love. And that love He is showering us right now. So if even if the end of life is nothingness, He is already loving us right now so there is enough reason to love Him right now.

and there are certain eternal truths that accompany the nature that is love; one of which is eternal heaven.

And this is where I say you really just do not get the point of "WHAT IFS’

The reason why the point of this thread is valid is precisely because of the truth or reality of heaven. If heaven is not real then the whole question is stupid because there is no “what if” about it any more.

The question “What if we live on earth” would be really stupid right now because we we do live on earth. That question will only be valid if we live in any place other than earth.
Philosophy is what i was practicing. You just don’t like it.
You were attempting to practice philosphy but you keep making these erraneous equations.

What if questions, are not an excuse to ignore logic or the true nature of God.

And as I have just shown above, what if’s only make sense when you set aside some aspects of the true nature of God.

Another example: We Christians cannot ask “What if God is love” because for us God IS love. Now to an atheist that question will make sense because to them God is not love.

What would be a valid question for us is “What if God IS NOT love” because then and only then can WHAT IF make sense. Other wise there is no “what if” about it.

 

[benedictus2]

How have so many of you missed the point that we have a** Testament with God**? A covenant? A *New *Testament. Like it or not, a covenant is an agreement: If you do this, I’ll do this. Have you all been so poorly catechized? It breaks my heart further that a Catholic priest actually posed this “what if” as a homily.

It’s a WHAT IF scenario. I get it. If there is No Heaven Will You Still Love God? NO! Absolutely not! Because I *believe *St. Paul when he writes that if Christ is not raised, then we are not raised, then Christ is not the Son of God and his promises were worthless. Fulton Sheen once went on to say that if Christ was not resurrected that Jesus of Nazareth was an anti-christ, for who in history could be said to have fooled so many (The Life of Christ, on sale at bookstores now).

This is Holy Week, isn’t it? How many of you have actually looked at a crucifix and THANKED Christ for dying for us, so that we could all go to Heaven? (You don’t feel so selfish now, do you! You feel horrified, humbled, repentent, ashamed). Thank you Jesus! Now I have hope! You took my sins upon yourself. That should be ME on that cross, but YOU SAVED ME! **We only want to go to Heaven *now ***because Jesus offered it. It wasn’t our idea. Who would have *dared *to ask God to die for us? Who would have thought it were even possible that the infinite God would love us so much? What else did he die for?

This “WHAT IF” scenario spits in the face of the crucified Christ and denies his suffering; not only that, **it has caused believers to consider that God *could ***break his promises (just for fun, of course!). How have so many taken this lightly? It undermines everything we hope for, and everything we suffer for in this life and the Covenant God made with us. It attacks the very foundation of the Church. Think of that stupid book/movie The Da Vinci Code. The great secret that could bring down the Church? Jesus had kids? No. Finding the corpse of Christ would bring down the Church. Of course, for us, we believe the witness of the aposltes; 11 of the 12 all died martyr’s deaths. They *saw *the risen Christ. They *knew with a certainty *that Jesus rose from the dead and was truly the Son of God and thus his word was good.

If there is no heaven there is no need of a crucifixion, no need of redemption.

Normally I’m very sad when I kill a thread, but this time I hope I’ve killed this thread good and dead, no hope for salvation, no heaven, just dead.

Hi Nom,

I have explained the nature of WHAT IFs to Bruno, fhansen and Mind over Matter just a few posts above this one.

I would like to ask you to read those.

Secondly, If we cannot love God if there is no heaven or more precisely eternal life, then that means our life here on earth is totally devoid of love since we can only love because God has loved us. If we cannot love God now, just for the gift of life here on earth and for everything that He has done for us here on earth, then that is really sad. Here He has loved and is loving us, and yet factor out eternal life and you say there is no reason to love Him apart from the promise of eternal life.

 

[benedictus2]

Probably not. I would not know what Love is.

God bless, embertx3

You would still know what love is even if there is no eternal life becaue God created you in love, He sustains your life here on earth in love, everyting He does for you here on earth He does because He loves you.

Your knowledge of love is not dependent on eternity because there is evidence of God’s great love for you, right here, right now.

He loves you now. right now. Not when after you die or tomorrow. Right now!

Is that love He is giving you at this very moment enough to love Him back in return?

 

[fhansen]

Looking over the various replies in the last several posts I’d respond this way: The problem is in reconciling a God who is love (which is the basic reason people say they love Him) with a God who doesn’t ultimately offer justice for the oppressed and suffering and eternal life with Him for beings who He created to desire it. That’s what makes this life-this exile from Him- worthwhile. Many haven’t even experienced love here, as embertx3 seems to be implying- they may have only experienced its opposite, in fact. So the point is, if the true nature of God is not love, then of course I won’t love Him.
**
We love him, because he first loved us. 1 John 4:19**

 

[benedictus2]

Looking over the various replies in the last several posts I’d respond this way: The problem is in reconciling a God who is love (which is the basic reason people say they love Him) with a God who doesn’t ultimately offer justice for the oppressed and suffering and eternal life with Him for beings who He created to desire it. That’s what makes this life-this exile from Him- worthwhile. Many haven’t even experienced love here, as embertx3 seems to be implying- they may have only experienced its opposite, in fact. So the point is, if the true nature of God is not love, then of course I won’t love Him.

We love him, because he first loved us. 1 John 4:19

Exactly. We love Him becuase He first loved us and this LOVE Is EVIDENT NOW, HERE ON EARTH. We do not need to wait for the afterlife or eternity to experience that love.

Your example of those who have experienced only suffering here on earth is quite valid. But in saying that love makes sense only in the context of a heavenly reward in the afterlife totally diminishes the experience of those who HAVE INDEED EXPERIENCED LOVE on this earth.

And more than that, there are those who suffer and yet do know that God is loving them in that suffering.

How do you then explain the love that abounds in their life right now?

As TheAtheist has so perfectly put it, everyone’s answer to this question will differ depending on their life experience. But this does not invalidate the question.

 

[fhansen]

First. If God is really a God of love and is perfect why would He bring you into an imperfect world when as you have said there is heaven. Why not create you straight into heaven?

Second: If the justifiable reason for bringing somebody into existence is because existence is perfectly good, then therefore you do not exist because as you stated above, your existence at this very moment is miserable, so therefore not perfectly good.

Existence is inherently good, but only because God is good. The main thing that makes existence in this particular fallen world good (a world where we experience both good and evil)- is the promise of spending eternal life with infinite Love, which we can only receive a foretaste of here. Otherwise we have to answer the question, Would we really want to spend eternity here-or in heaven for that matter if it wasn’t much different than this? In any case, this world is not the original plan for man and the purpose for us here is to learn just how much we need God-as we come to see our own powerlessness over the evils that seek to overtake us-the ultimate one being death-and as we come to love God more and the pain of separation from Him grows in acuteness.

Third: The reason that God brought us into existence is not because existence is perfectly good but because God loves us and wants to share His life with us. Even on this earth we are already sharing in this life because as Genesis tells us : He gave us his spirit to give us life.

**But by rejecting the Spirits’ sovereignty within him, man chose his own way, ruled by the flesh rather than the Spirit, thus separating himself from the source of his life-and corruption, suffering, and death entered the world-making it imperfect as a habitat for man. This split with God and with himself necessitated the reconciliation accomplished by Christ, and the resurrection offers man restoration to the end always intended by God: heaven or eternal life. **

But that would be like loving your mother only because of the thought of dessert later on because you hate the terrible peas you are forced to eat right now. Wouldn’t it be better if we could actually develop a liking for the peas and realize that our mother’s love is as much in the peas, as in the dessert.

Not if she revealed that after the peas she was going to annihilate me.

And more than that, there are those who suffer and yet do know that God is loving them in that suffering.

But implicit in that love-while-suffering is the faith and hope that the sum total of their existence is not merely their vale of tears.

How do you then explain the love that abounds in their life right now?

As TheAtheist has so perfectly put it, everyone’s answer to this question will differ depending on their life experience. But this does not invalidate the question.

**I’m not sure what this means. Rich people often assume they’re blest by God and yet our faith reveals that the deceitfulness of wealth can give us a false sense of security. OTOH, poor people or those poor in spirit-the suffering-may be more likely to humble themselves in faith before God because they have no access to that sense of self-sufficiency. We turn to God in our needs and that’s what he’s waiting for us to do-the ultimate need being the triumph over the death we all face-a fact He, at least, knows affects us negatively.
**

 

[benedictus2]

Existence is inherently good, but only because God is good. The main thing that makes existence in this particular fallen world good (a world where we experience both good and evil)- is the promise of spending eternal life with infinite Love, which we can only receive a foretaste of here. Otherwise we have to answer the question, Would we really want to spend eternity here-or in heaven for that matter if it wasn’t much different than this? In any case, this world is not the original plan for man and the purpose for us here is to learn just how much we need God-as we come to see our own powerlessness over the evils that seek to overtake us-the ultimate one being death-and as we come to love God more and the pain of separation from Him grows in acuteness.

Just a quick one and I will reply to the rest of the post tomorrow.

If you go with the question of the WHAT IF, you need to realize that you have to factor out as well, the fact that the world is not the original plan for man because that is contingent on the reality of heaven which the question has already excluded.

So the question is if the world IS the original plan and that is all there is, is the foretaste of Love (which happens to be very real on this earth) enough for us to love the Lover back?

If the world is so bleak that there is not a shred of love at all to enable us to love God in return for His loving us, then how can we know of love at all? As you have said previously, we can only love becuase God has loved us first so therefore we are aware that God is loving us in the here and now.

Is His love for us in the here and now enough for us to love Him back?

I think the whole problem with a lot of the replies is that realities that hinge on heaven are being considered in the whole argument but that just cannot be done because the OP has already excluded heaven so anything relating to it is also excluded. The only thing that has been left for consideration is God and God’s love.

**Not if she revealed that after the peas she was going to annihilate me. **

You make that sound so frightening but it is not meant to be like that at all. More like a a drifting off to sleep in love. The question is do we see in the the peas the love of the mother and is that love enough for us to love her back?

 

[MindOverMatter]

If the world is so bleak that there is not a shred of love at all to enable us to love God in return for His loving us, then how can we know of love at all?

Strict contemplation and meditation on Gods love, leads me to the realization that there are necessarily certain and particular truths that follow from the first principle and nature that we call God. One of them is the reality of Heaven. If there is no such thing as Heaven, then there is necessarily no such thing as God.

I don’t know what you mean by “Gods love”.

As you have said previously, we can only love becuase God has loved us first

And what does it mean for God to love us?

so therefore we are aware that God is loving us in the here and now.

I am not aware that God loves me if there is no heaven. A person may have feelings of love for somebody, and they may even be smart enough to say the words “i love you”, but that doesn’t mean that their “actions” genuinely portray that love. There is a big difference. How does it follow that just because God has created us, that such an act means that God loves us? We know that Gods loves us because of the eternal promise that God made to us; not because of some “feeling”.

I think the whole problem with a lot of the replies is the realities that hinge on heaven are being considered in the whole argument but that just cannot be done because the OP has already excluded heaven so anything relating to it is also excluded. The only thing that has been left for consideration is God and God’s love.

The real problem is, you fail to understand that Gods love for us is Heaven. To speak of Gods love outside of this fact, is to speak of meaningless things. Therefore the whole discussion is void. You’re speaking about God as if he is just any old person who happens to have feelings of love for us. But God is identified by his nature and actuality, all that God has said and done; Gods attributes and all that follows as a result. So what God are you taking about exactly? The Gods of Olympus?

You sure ain’t taking about the God of Abraham.

The question is do we see in the the peas the love of the mother and is that love enough for us to love her back?

We love only because God has given us the gift of love, not because we are loving creatures. The moral truth that we “ought to love” is dependent on the existence of love. If there is no heaven, God does not love us. Therefore there is no moral truth.

I have a better question. What kind of mother brings a child in to the world knowing that they are going to face the disparity and inevitability of ceasing to exist, not to mention the many potential horrors that lie in weight for each and every one of us? Such a love is irrational. Better that the human race commit suicide. Nobody that really takes life seriously would bring people into this world, if this world is in fact all their is.

You have continuously failed to understand these simple facts, much to my disappointment. What is the point of this thread? Is it just an opportunity for us to say how wonderful we are for loving a God that is quite happy to expose us to a world full of prejudice, horror and no hope? Or is this an opportunity for us to come to full and complete understanding of what it means for God to love us.

What is the point of existence? What was the point of Jesus dying on the cross? I’m sorry, but i think this thread is an insult.

 

[benedictus2]

I am not aware that God loves me if there is no heaven.

Then I find that quite sad. God is loving us right now. He is not waiting until we get to heaven.

The real problem is, you fail to understand that Gods love for us is Heaven.

God’s love for us is not limited to heaven (as in the eternal reward). God’s love is real RIGHT NOW. And that is the real problem. That you do not realize that.

Therefore the whole discussion is void. You’re speaking about God as if he is just any old person who happens to have feelings of love for us.

Actually not. As I have mentioned before He loved us when He created us. Perhaps you should meditate on Psalm 139.

But God is identified by his nature and actuality, all that God has said and done;

EXACTLY. By what He has done. And what He has done is create us IN LOVE.

I am sorry that you do not think that God loves you right now but the fact remains that a lot of people do.

So just because you do not feel He does, does not invalidate the question.

Some have answered in the negative and that is fair enough.

Gods attributes and all that follows as a result. So what God are you taking about exactly? The Gods of Olympus?

You sure ain’t taking about the God of Abraham.

But you sure are not talking about the God of scripture at all if you think that His love is only available after our death,.

We love only because God has given us the gift of love, not because we are loving creatures.

PRECISELY AGAIN. And that gift of LOVE he is giving us NOW. He is not waiting for us to die before giving us the gift of love.

The moral truth that we “ought to love” is dependent on the existence of love. If there is no heaven, God does not love us.

I think you need to refer back to my explanation on the nature of WHAT IF questions. You keep failing to understand that.

Therefore there is no moral truth.

Moral truth does not depend on heaven. Heaven is not the Author of morality. God is. You keep running into this error becuase you have this equation that GOD=Heaven.

I have a better question. What kind of mother brings a child in to the world knowing that they are going to face the disparity and inevitability of ceasing to exist, not to mention the many potential horrors that lie in weight for each and every one of us? Such a love is irrational.

Only in a materialistic view of the world.

Better that the human race commit suicide. Nobody that really takes life seriously would bring people into this world, if this world is in fact all their is.

You are quite wrong there. There are lot of atheists who still have children even though they believe that this world is all there is. Does that mean that atheists have a better appreciation of the goodness of existence even though such existence is temporary?

You have continuously failed to understand these simple facts, much to my disappointment.

You may be disappointed but it is you who keep failing to grasp the nature of WHAT IFs. Okay so you cannot answer yes.

But why not just be honest that you cannot answer yes, like the others instead of trying to show that the question is invalid when I have already showed you that the question is valid PRECISELY BECAUSE we believe in heaven.

What is the point of this thread? Is it just an opportunity for us to say how wonderful we are for loving a God that is quite happy to expose us to a world full of prejudice, horror and no hope? Or is this an opportunity for us to come to full and complete understanding of what it means for God to love us.

Others see the point of this thread. If you don’t that’s okay.

What is the point of existence? What was the point of Jesus dying on the cross? I’m sorry, but i think this thread is an insult.

Others don’t think so. As I have mentioned before, saints get the point.

I don’t know but I think your vehemence is born of fear. Are you afraid that by posing the what if it might make it true? It is not true. And the fact that it is not true is what makes the what if valid.

 

[TMC]

The existence or nonexistence of heaven makes no difference in the the way I feel about God, or in the way I live my life. I like to say that Christianity is not a retirement plan. In other words, obeying God only in the hope of getting ‘paid back’ does not make one a Christian, it makes one an investor. Christianity is not about investing for the future, its about living this life properly and well.

 

[MindOverMatter]

Then I find that quite sad. God is loving us right now. He is not waiting until we get to heaven.

Yes God is loving us right now, and that love is made evident by the promise of salvation, and Jesus dying on the cross. If there is no heaven, no salvation, no ultimate and perfect fulfillment in God, then i don’t see what relevance existence or morality has in respect of objective truth. I certainly don’t see why one would call life or even God “good”. This can only be a subjective opinion. If you truly love somebody, you would not see them perish in to non-existence; and you would not bring them into existence purely to fulfill some ego-trip. God is eternal. Gods love is eternal. Gods Love is identical to Gods being. Love is identical to ultimate being. Therefore any and every person, that is brought into being, is eternally loved and is ultimately fulfilled in being, simply because “Being” is eternally “good”. If being is good, then to cease being is the complete opposite.

Can you not see that ceasing to exist is impossible if such a love truly exists?

Love, to me, is also defined by action; not just being or feeling. It relates to how one behaves towards another living being. If you believe in doing the greater good for a living person, then you will act for the greater good of a living person in every respect of their existence, insofar as your capacity allows.

God’s love for us is not limited to heaven (as in the eternal reward).

Its not a limit. Heaven is the fulfillment of mankind. Heaven is the greater good.

Gods love for us is heaven. We know that God loves us because he created us for heaven.
benedictus2;5075096:

God’s love is real RIGHT NOW. And that is the real problem. That you do not realize that.

It was never a problem for me. I realize it perfectly in the fact that God created me for Heaven. What kind of God would give me the desire of perfect happiness, but then deny me perfection? Perfect happiness is eternal; neither my dignity or my happiness as a living person can be fulfilled by death.

Actually not. As I have mentioned before He loved us when He created us. Perhaps you should meditate on Psalm 139.

Interpretation is important; and its very important to interpret scripture with absolute respect for all other spiritual truths.

First of all, the words you have taken from scripture are being written in such a way as to describe Gods eternal love for us. Gods love for us is eternal; and God has eternally willed for us to be and has created us from all eternity, for-out of Gods eternal love we have come to be. However this doesn’t mean that Gods love is not acting according to a divine plan for human beings. Love evidently works towards a specific and positive end. This much is made evident throughout scripture. Love has created us for a purpose; our purpose is to be ultimately united with that eternal Love we call God. Gods love is always, and for us, in regards to our freewill, we can either be eternally united to Gods love or spend eternity rebelling against Gods love.

EXACTLY. By what He has done. And what He has done is create us IN LOVE.

What do you mean by this? If i create you, why does that mean that i love you?
Thousands of babies are created all the time just because people like sleeping around.

I am sorry that you do not think that God loves you right now but the fact remains that a lot of people do.

I have never written a post saying that i do not believe in Gods eternal love; Gods love is imminent to all beings at all times. What i don’t believe in, is your empty and subjective misrepresentation of it.

Bottom line, People believe in Gods love because of what he promised; and through Gods promise, God gives us the grace to know and love God in preparation for an ultimate union in heaven. Outside of these facts, your whole project is meaningless.
benedictus2;5075096:

So just because you do not feel He does, does not invalidate the question.

This is not about what i feel. Its about logic. The question is invalid, because Gods love is known by his attributes, what he has done, what he will do, and what he has eternally promised. Nothing less, nothing more. Take any one of those things away, you destroy God. The God you are describing, is not the God that i know, and it is not a God that want to know either.

Some have answered in the negative and that is fair enough.

If they truly understood the question they would have done well not to answer at all.

But you sure are not talking about the God of scripture at all if you think that His love is only available after our death,.

In respect of Gods love, giving us existence is only a part of Gods plan. I never said that God doesn’t love us in the here and now; but we know of that love, because of the promise of heaven. It is because God invites us into eternal life in love, that we know that God cares about us. Outside of that reality, to speak of Gods love is meaningless. What are you talking about? Heaven is the purpose of our existence.