If voting republican doesn't change Abortion laws, then why vote Republican?

[Vonsalza]

If I were you, I would either register Independent or for a small third party.

I do consider myself a bit of a third party already. Much like the “Tea Party” subset of the GOP, I’m a part of the more blue-collar, Rooseveltian subset of the Dems.

I think for many, the reality that so many Dems are pro-life creates dissonance with their desire to have a clear-cut boogeyman.

I think it’s one thing for a Catholic to vote for individual Democrats, but I don’t understand how a faithful Catholic can continue to be registered as a Democrat when the organization’s official platform is anti-Catholic.

I don’t think the reality is as bad as you imagine. Check it out.

On the flip side, while the Republicans have some policies that go against Catholic social teaching, their official, documented platform is 100% in agreement with the Catholic Church.

Here I both see an obvious objection and your rationalization of it.
I’m sure some in the Church would consider things like hawking and capital punishment a bit more serious than pedestrian social teaching. But we’re getting off topic here.

Neither party is perfect, but the Democrats have gone on record as being officially against Catholic teaching.

Has the Holy See issued a statement to this effect? I see American Bishops present on both sides of the issue here…

 

[dmelosi]

youtube.com/watch?v=BEK43TWkBN4

Does anyone really think that planned parenthood is doing anything at all even remotely close to Catholic teaching?

 

[Vonsalza]

Does anyone really think that planned parenthood is doing anything at all even remotely close to Catholic teaching?

Does anyone really think Planned Parenthood and the DNC are the same thing?

If it weren’t for members of the the GOP, Planned Parenthood might not even exist.

 

[dmelosi]

Does anyone really think Planned Parenthood and the DNC are the same thing?

If it weren’t for members of the the GOP, Planned Parenthood might not even exist.

As you already knew no one says they are the same thing.

It is very easy to pick and choose exceptions which the article does.

Ask Naral which party allow planned parenthood to exist? Ask Naral which party they say are trying to eliminate planned parenthood?

 

[Ender]

On the flip side, while individual Republicans support some policies that challenge Catholic social teaching, their official, documented platform is 100% in agreement with the Catholic Church.

It is often asserted that some Republican policies are opposed to church teaching, but this assumes that the church actually has a position on those policies. There are in fact very few issues that are both political and moral. Topics like health care, the minimum wage, the budget, immigration, etc do not really involve moral choices. Once the decision is made to do what one thinks is best, the specific decisions are prudential only, and Catholics may legitimately reach completely contrary conclusions.

As to the OP’s question about voting, perhaps the answer would be more obvious if the question was rephrased this way: Given that the Republicans have so far been unable to overcome the Democrats support of abortion (as well as the Supreme Court rulings legitimizing it), why not just give up opposing abortion? Well, the fact that abortion continues to be legal does not alter the fact that Republican opposition has led to some obvious successes.

Ender

 

[dmelosi]

Here you go again with the “If you accept the part, then you accept the whole” erroneous mentality. We’ve already established that you don’t accept the whole Republican plank. Why do you unreasonably hold Democrats to a different standard as yourself?

If the problem cross-sections both parties, then it’s not a party problem.

99% in 1 party and a small % in the other, does indeed show a party problem. It is very obvious to everyone, some just won’t admit it.

 

[dmelosi]

I don’t ignore it. I’ve told you (repeatedly, at this point) that I don’t support that particular part of the plank.

This is worse than saying “I don’t believe in abortion personally”

 

[Vonsalza]

99% in 1 party and a small % in the other, does indeed show a party problem. It is very obvious to everyone, some just won’t admit it.

For Reps, the number isn’t “small”.

It’s more like a third.

And Democrats are far less united in favor of abortion than you think. Fact is, there are tons of pro-life dems. Pew gives that more than a fifth of dems are rigidly pro-life.

I hate to tear apart your favorite straw-man, but there is a very observable disparity between what you think about dems and reps versus what actually exists concerning dems and reps.

 

[dmelosi]

For Reps, the number isn’t “small”.

It’s more like a third.

And Democrats are far less united in favor of abortion than you think. Fact is, there are tons of pro-life dems. Pew gives that more than a fifth of dems are rigidly pro-life.

I hate to tear apart your favorite straw-man, but there is a very observable disparity between what you think about dems and reps versus what actually exists concerning dems and reps.

The disparity is between the definition of pro-life. Instead of an opinion poll, just curious what you think the naral views/ratings are and what they think about the difference.

The pro-life term used by the dems mean entirely different thing than what it actually means, and is done that way for a very deliberate and deceptive reason.

But you tore nothing apart, just fooling your self even more.

 

[Vonsalza]

Instead of an opinion poll, just curious what you think the naral views/ratings are and what they think about the difference.

I’m unfamiliar with Naral, but Pew is highly reputable and tries to avoid bias as much as they can.

The pro-life term used by the dems mean entirely different thing than what it actually means, and is done that way for a very deliberate and deceptive reason.

In the Pew piece I cited, I think the language invoked to describe pro-lifers would be something you’d agree with. “[Abortion] illegal in all/most cases”.

But you tore nothing apart, just fooling your self even more.

Fact is, more Republicans and fewer Democrats support abortion than you think. Thus it’s not exclusively a “party problem”.

If you don’t want to acknowledge the data, then rational discussion is over.

 

[dmelosi]

I’m unfamiliar with Naral, but Pew is highly reputable and tries to avoid bias as much as they can.

In the Pew piece I cited, I think the language invoked to describe pro-lifers would be something you’d agree with. “[Abortion] illegal in all/most cases”.

Fact is, more Republicans and fewer Democrats support abortion than you think. Thus it’s not exclusively a “party problem”.

If you don’t want to acknowledge the data, then rational discussion is over.

Natal is the abortion group. They rate politicians on how they support or oppose abortion.

It is compiled by actual voting records.

It is very black and white on who supports what. Or maybe better to say life or death

 

[Vonsalza]

Natal is the abortion group. They rate politicians on how they support or oppose abortion.

It is compiled by actual voting records.

It is very black and white on who supports what. Or maybe better to say life or death

Saying any particular batch of Democrat politicians represents the beliefs of the entire Democratic party is about as stupid as saying a batch of Republican politicians like Trump represents the beliefs of the entire Republican party.

This has been my point all along.

Dems are dems for different reasons like reps are reps for different reasons.

With a third of reps being pro-choice coupled with the lack of real political will to do something about abortion when they hold the presidency and both chambers of congress -
I see absolutely no reason why I should be a Republican purely on the basis of my views on abortion. There are other political issues at hand, on which I’m thoroughly an old blue-collar, Rooseveltian Democrat.

 

[dmelosi]

Saying any particular batch of Democrat politicians represents the beliefs of the entire Democratic party is about as stupid as saying a batch of Republican politicians like Trump represents the beliefs of the entire Republican party.

This has been my point all along.

Dems are dems for different reasons like reps are reps for different reasons.

With a third of reps being pro-choice coupled with the lack of real political will to do something about abortion when they hold the presidency and both chambers of congress -
I see absolutely no reason why I should be a Republican purely on the basis of my views on abortion. There are other political issues at hand, on which I’m thoroughly an old blue-collar, Rooseveltian Democrat.

Viewing a poll and taking it as gospel, instead of actual voting records is what you call smart?

Take a look at this link, then sort by percentage on the right.

votesmart.org/interest-group/1016/rating/4759?p=2&of=rating#.WaWaL8iGOUk

People will go to great lengths to twist things to ease their conscience for supporting the party of death.

I would say that most democrats have a single issue that is important to them, so most adopt their views on all else, especially old blue-collar, Rooseveltian Democrats. Notice I said most not all.

What so many have chosen to do are to blindly follow and believe party leaders, that promote the intentional killing of the most innocent, while knowingly ending the life of millions of innocent human beings.

 

[phil19034]

Saying any particular batch of Democrat politicians represents the beliefs of the entire Democratic party is about as stupid as saying a batch of Republican politicians like Trump represents the beliefs of the entire Republican party.

This has been my point all along.

Dems are dems for different reasons like reps are reps for different reasons.

With a third of reps being pro-choice coupled with the lack of real political will to do something about abortion when they hold the presidency and both chambers of congress -
I see absolutely no reason why I should be a Republican purely on the basis of my views on abortion. There are other political issues at hand, on which I’m thoroughly an old blue-collar, Rooseveltian Democrat.

FYI - Ronald Reagan was a faithful Rooseveltian Democrat, which is why he became a Republican.

patrickcoffin.media/videos/st-john-paul-ii-and-ronald-reagan-the-friendship-that-changed-history/

 

[Vonsalza]

FYI - Ronald Reagan was a faithful Rooseveltian Democrat, which is why he became a Republican.

I’m sure he may have said so. But his penchant for deregulating natural monopolies like telecoms and utilities makes me take the comment with a pinch of salt.

He did know how to spend that government money, though. I guess THAT was pretty Rooseveltian of him.

 

[Vonsalza]

Viewing a poll and taking it as gospel…

We’re talking about Pew. I’m going to upgrade my comment about them from “highly reputable” to “among the most reputable”.

If Pew says 34% of Republicans are pro-choice, the actual number is probably somewhere around 34% (±) a small margin of error of one or two.

Take a look at this link, then sort by percentage on the right.

I’m going to have to repeat myself here: You’re talking about individual politicians. Not the party as a whole. These are not the same thing. As such, your argument here is built on the logical fallacy of faulty composition.

To be clear, Nancy Pelosi is not the Democratic Party (thanks be to God). Neither is Tom Perez. In the same vein, Donald Trump and Mitch McConnell are not the Republican Party.

People will go to great lengths to twist things to ease their conscience for supporting the party of death.

I genuinely think the primary thing you’ve displayed is the great lengths you, personally, will go to in an effort to maintain the Democrats as “the party of death” despite over a fifth of them favoring the outlawing of abortion. All the while, championing the Republican party as “the party of life” while a third of their voters seem to be pro-choice.

You have a straw-man here, and you will not allow minor inconveniences such as facts to get in the way of it.

I would say that most democrats have a single issue that is important to them, so most adopt their views on all else…

This simply isn’t true. Elections are won and lost on the effectiveness of the appeal to moderates. Most of the time, these people are registered to one party but can vote along multiple axes (like me).

What so many have chosen to do are to blindly follow and believe…

…that something called “The Party of Death” exists.

 

[dmelosi]

We’re talking about Pew. I’m going to upgrade my comment about them from “highly reputable” to “among the most reputable”.

If Pew says 34% of Republicans are pro-choice, the actual number is probably somewhere around 34% (±) a small margin of error of one or two.

I’m going to have to repeat myself here: You’re talking about individual politicians. Not the party as a whole. These are not the same thing. As such, your argument here is built on the logical fallacy of faulty composition.

To be clear, Nancy Pelosi is not the Democratic Party (thanks be to God). Neither is Tom Perez. In the same vein, Donald Trump and Mitch McConnell are not the Republican Party.

I genuinely think the primary thing you’ve displayed is the great lengths you, personally, will go to in an effort to maintain the Democrats as “the party of death” despite over a fifth of them favoring the outlawing of abortion. All the while, championing the Republican party as “the party of life” while a third of their voters seem to be pro-choice.

You have a straw-man here, and you will not allow minor inconveniences such as facts to get in the way of it.

This simply isn’t true. Elections are won and lost on the effectiveness of the appeal to moderates. Most of the time, these people are registered to one party but can vote along multiple axes (like me).

…that something called “The Party of Death” exists.

Over 90% of democrats have a naral rating of 100%.
Over 88% of repulicans have a naral rating of 0%

Your poll is not on the law makers, and is just that a poll.

The link I gave you are facts about who you are defending.

All of the mental gymnastics you are going through, with all of the distraction from the actual facts, are typical of those trying to ease their conscience for defending this party of death.

Would you care to try to defend the naral ratings and what they mean?

 

[phil19034]

We’re talking about Pew. I’m going to upgrade my comment about them from “highly reputable” to “among the most reputable”.

If Pew says 34% of Republicans are pro-choice, the actual number is probably somewhere around 34% (±) a small margin of error of one or two.

I’m going to have to repeat myself here: You’re talking about individual politicians. Not the party as a whole. These are not the same thing. As such, your argument here is built on the logical fallacy of faulty composition.

To be clear, Nancy Pelosi is not the Democratic Party (thanks be to God). Neither is Tom Perez. In the same vein, Donald Trump and Mitch McConnell are not the Republican Party.

I genuinely think the primary thing you’ve displayed is the great lengths you, personally, will go to in an effort to maintain the Democrats as “the party of death” despite over a fifth of them favoring the outlawing of abortion. All the while, championing the Republican party as “the party of life” while a third of their voters seem to be pro-choice.

You have a straw-man here, and you will not allow minor inconveniences such as facts to get in the way of it.

This simply isn’t true. Elections are won and lost on the effectiveness of the appeal to moderates. Most of the time, these people are registered to one party but can vote along multiple axes (like me).

…that something called “The Party of Death” exists.

I think you and dmelosi are arguing past one another.

Its important to understand that there is a distinction between the make up of the parties as a whole vs. which group runs the party.

Approx 34% of registered Republicans are pro-choice because the libertarians are split between Republicans and Democrats. Real libertarians tend to be pro-choice.
Libertarians who care more about fiscal issues, tend to be Republicans while libertarians who care more about social issues tend to be Democrats.

Real libertarians are still a minority (yet a vocal minority) of the Republican Party. But the party is still controlled by conservatives and neo-conservatives.

Democrats on the other hand still have a number of centrists and moderates in the party, esp among Catholic & blue collar Democrats. And as you say, there are a number of pro-life democrats. However, the party is controlled by the pro-choice camp and control of the party seems to be moving further to the left.

I believe that’s the point dmelosi was trying to make.

God Bless.

 

[dmelosi]

I think you and dmelosi are arguing past one another.

Its important to understand that there is a distinction between the make up of the parties as a whole vs. which group runs the party.

Approx 34% of registered Republicans are pro-choice because the libertarians are split between Republicans and Democrats. Real libertarians tend to be pro-choice.
Libertarians who care more about fiscal issues, tend to be Republicans while libertarians who care more about social issues tend to be Democrats.

Real libertarians are still a minority (yet a vocal minority) of the Republican Party. But the party is still controlled by conservatives and neo-conservatives.

Democrats on the other hand still have a number of centrists and moderates in the party, esp among Catholic & blue collar Democrats. And as you say, there are a number of pro-life democrats. However, the party is controlled by the pro-choice camp and control of the party seems to be moving further to the left.

I believe that’s the point dmelosi was trying to make.

God Bless.

Thanks. That is one thing I am pointing out, yes. But the other important thing is that polls on pro-life tend to allow for the answer to be yes they are pro-life, but a dumbed down version of pro-life.

A voting record says it clearly where they stand.

 

[IWantGod]

Thanks. That is one thing I am pointing out, yes. But the other important thing is that polls on pro-life tend to allow for the answer to be yes they are pro-life, but a dumbed down version of pro-life.

A voting record says it clearly where they stand.

So your argument is that if you are a democrat you can’t be pro life?