If we forgive those who offend us but then avoid their company have we truly forgiven them?

[GospelOfMatthew]

I love that we are discussing interpretations of the Gospel of Matthew. Nothing makes me more excited then to see that in a thread :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:

 

[Eric_Hyom]

This is Matthew’s version, but Luke 17:3 says it differently.

“If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.

The easy part of forgiving is when they repent. But in Mathews Gospel Jesus takes forgiveness to higher level. Forgive them 77 times, and it does not say if they have repented 77 times.

Or to put it another way, if they have repented 77 times, repentance has probably lost any meaning.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Did Jesus forgive the devil ? When he was tempted? By the devil ?

On the cross Jesus prayed; forgive them Father for they know not what they do. Sadly this forgiveness did not seem to come with any terms; conditions or small print.
Could Jesus really forgive the man who crowned him with thorns, or the man who nailed him to the cross. Did Jesus really pray to forgive my sins and your sins, and could he also forgive the people who have cheated us as well?

A psalm of King David. When the prophet Nathan came to him after David had committed adultery with Bathsheba and had her husband killed.

Psalm 51…
4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight;

Forgiveness is a profound journey, always one day at a time.

 

[Visiter58]

It is a journey for the one offended and the offender. It may be better for the one offended to forgive the offender and wish them well BUT stay away from them so that the one offended does not sin by saying and or doing bad things about and to the offender.

 

[thistle]

If you forgive someone once, and then move away, you are not in a position to forgive a second or third time.

If you forgive someone once and move away then they are not in a position to wrong you again!!

 

[Victoria33]

Forgive them 77 times, in other words, one always forgives transgressions.

This came up in a Bible study, always forgive those who do you wrong, ideally speaking. It’s not like you are checking off 77 times with one individual.

 

[Sarcelle]

We can forgive transgressions but we are not required to enable them.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

I am not understanding so would you say plainly? Are you saying that we should forgive AND continue to put ourselves in the presence of someone who is abusive.

I think this is a matter of conscience, do you lean towards the Luke understanding of forgiving those who repent. Or do you lean more towards the Mathew understanding of forgiving 77 times?

In the voluntary work I do, I am drawn towards forgiving 77 times, even if they do not repent. About 3 am this morning I had to listen to an angry drunk shouting vile and offensive abuse towards us. If I see him again, I will try again to look for the good that is in all people, if he needs help, then I will also try and help him.

I have experienced many profound encounters with forgiveness, on a couple of occasions it meant the difference between death or life.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Forgive them 77 times, in other words, one always forgives transgressions.

This came up in a Bible study, always forgive those who do you wrong, ideally speaking. It’s not like you are checking off 77 times with one individual.

Thanks for sharing.
If you counted the transgressions up to 77, then you say to yourself, just one more time then it is pay back time. You have missed the meaning. Forgiveness should become a way of life and you should not be keeping score.

 

[Allegra]

Since we are supposed to forgive everyone who hurts us, that includes those who are still trying to hurt us. It seems obvious to me that the charitable thing to do when you encounter someone who wants to hurt you is to avoid their company so as to not allow them to sin against you. However, if you believe a person is repentant and realistic of changing their behavior, the right thing to do is give them another chance.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

It seems obvious to me that the charitable thing to do when you encounter someone who wants to hurt you is to avoid their company so as to not allow them to sin against you.

Some years ago when I was out with the Street Pastor team, some angry lads came walking towards us. They were pointing at us and told us to move on; I felt we were going to get hit and said to my partner that we should walk away. He said, have you seen those other lads climbing over the fence, when he pointed this out, I knew we were going to stay.

We did get hit, and we later reported this to the police. The police caught the lads and asked me to make a statement, I said no. I said I am a Christian volunteer, and we should forgive, and it does not seem right to forgive after they have been punished. I did say my ideal outcome would be for us to meet up in a room together, let them talk, and afterwards, they should be allowed to walk away. Sadly the police did not agree to this.

Often people who are angry; have the right to be angry, but they do not have the right to hit out. We did meet up with him again. He said he had never got on with his dad, then his dad was diagnosed with cancer and then they started to get on, but his dad died shortly after. I really believed that he needed long term help and not a police record.

We did not know his story, but we took the risk to be with him again. Kindness can seem a risky thing to do in some circumstances.

 

[BornInMarch]

You have a right to avoid people you know will cause trouble.

 

[tafan2]

The devil.did not ask for forgiveness

 

[tafan2]

I don’t disagree, but then what does it mean to truly forgive them?

 

[Visiter58]

That’s a little different than an offensive family member.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Check out the ‘Forgiveness Project’, there are many real life stories of extreme forgiveness. This was the first link I clicked on, neighbours fighting their neighbours.

https://www.theforgivenessproject.com/stanislav-krezic

 

[Sirach2]

21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

You have a version that is not correctly using Jesus’ words. He said, “not seven times, but seventy times seven times.” Which amounts to 490 times. This was to indicate boundlessness or infinity. It does not mean that forgiveness requires us to resume the relationship, which was the question of the OP, and which you did not address. Your subsequent posts seem to advise the contrary.

I repeat my earlier post that we must forgive in the heart, but not that we are required to be in communion with the offender as a sign of our forgiveness.

St. Faustina wrote about this in her Diary #1628.

O my Master, You see very well that I feel no love for them, and that troubles me. Jesus answered. It is not always within your power to control your feelings. You will recognize that you have love if, after having experienced annoyance and contradiction, you do not lose your peace, but pray for those who have made you suffer and wish them well.

Forgiveness means to let go of any resentment or anger concerning the offense, pray for the persecutor, and interiorly wish them well, excusing their action, “For they know not what they do.”

 

[tafan2]

I repeat my earlier post that we must forgive in the heart,

I don’t know how to tell if I have forgiven them in my heart. Are you saying that "let go of any resentment or anger concerning the offense, pray for the persecutor, and interiorly wish them well "
is how to judge if one has forgiven them in one’s heart? I have a member of my family who I am not angry with, I certainly wish well, I regularly pray for him. Depending on the definition of resentment, letting go of resentment seems rather difficult. I looked it up, and by most definitions, it is anger and feeling ill-will towards someone. By that definution, letting go of resentment is redundant to the rest of your requirements. Any thoughts on the resentment aspect ( beyond the letting go of anger and wishing them good)?

 

[Sirach2]

. . . letting go of resentment seems rather difficult. I looked it up, and by most definitions, it is anger and feeling ill-will towards someone.

I probably misspoke, since St. Faustina heard from Our Lord that it is not always within our power to control our feelings. But to be “willing” to let it go, and ask God for His grace to do so, is a sign of a generous heart that is not deliberately holding grudges.

I heard a speaker use an analogy of “changing the channel with our remote” whenever these thoughts try to influence our thinking, replacing them with a prayer for the offender.

 

[tafan2]

No, that’s not.my question. I understand the letting go of anger and the need to wish them well. But is that what the previous post about not having resentment means?

And does all if this equate to “forgiveness in one’s heart”?